Quote from: Kreuzfidel on November 20, 2014, 06:30:15 PM
You can't actually answer "yes" to this question.  You yourself included the word "most" when referring to people's experiences. 

They will differ, so there is no "yes" or "no" answer to this question, Contravene.

it's not just going by my experience, but from what i've heard/observed from other guys. even if it's not a "real" mental change, there will still be the placebo effect.

Hi, can I ask what the mental changes were while taking T as I can't say I noticed anything different for myself.

Quote from: makipu on November 22, 2014, 07:40:15 PM
Hi, can I ask what the mental changes were while taking T as I can't say I noticed anything different for myself.

Not everyone has "mental changes".  I think what is being described here are things like being calmer or less anxious.  Perhaps even things relating to temper. 

What has been posted about in this thread is anecdotal only because not every trans* man in the world has been surveyed to ascertain the speculated mental changes.

Quote from: makipu on November 22, 2014, 07:40:15 PM
Hi, can I ask what the mental changes were while taking T as I can't say I noticed anything different for myself.

ive experienced...

-less anxiety/i don't really care about things as much now (ex. social anxiety eases up because i don't care what others think of me now)
-a bit of an increase in anger
-not as high strung, so i guess more calm (?)
-not as emotionally affected by things as i was pre-t
-shorter attention span

Yeah, I thought everyone had mental changes, which was why I thought going on T for at least a few weeks would be helpful. I didn't know some people never got any. Wouldn't that be a depressing experience. I hear about so many transmen who STOP T because they don't like the dramatic mental changes they get.

I don't really know what to say at this point except thank you guys for all your comments. I'm glad to see you sharing opinions and experiences, whether or not they're in favor of my idea. I'm glad that the thread I started seems to have gotten a few others to open up about themselves, too.

My relationship has been really unstable since I last posted, partly due to my realizing that this compromise IS kind of one-sided. My mental state has also been a little unstable since living with someone who disapproves of my transition causes me to second-guess myself constantly. I was genderfluid to begin with, and still will be no matter what body I have. If you don't want me to be a man, I'm easy to sway. (I guess the same can be said if you don't want me to be a woman. There's an interesting thought...)

I've started to wonder if the man-voice in my head is a multiple personality. I told my husband about this, and now he's trying to convince me that this is all it is, and I'm not trans after all--I've just got an opposite-sex personality trying to take over my body. There's a user here who has DID and had this exact scenario happen to them. They were very vocal about it the last time I was active here, warning others not to confuse DID with gender dysphoria. So, knowing that this is a real possibility doesn't help me feel any better.

He's currently away on a business trip, so I have the place to myself, and some quiet time to think. He went on a similar trip recently. My mind was set on FTM without confusion (with a little healthy doubt, perhaps), I felt great and alive, and I felt like my true persona was able to come out without the guilt or confusion. If the same thing happens this time, I think we can all infer what my outcome will be, although I hate to say it.

I may have derailed my own thread. If so, carry on!

Quote from: Gothic Dandy Luca on November 30, 2014, 10:50:11 PM
Yeah, I thought everyone had mental changes, which was why I thought going on T for at least a few weeks would be helpful. I didn't know some people never got any. Wouldn't that be a depressing experience. I hear about so many transmen who STOP T because they don't like the dramatic mental changes they get.

I don't really know what to say at this point except thank you guys for all your comments. I'm glad to see you sharing opinions and experiences, whether or not they're in favor of my idea. I'm glad that the thread I started seems to have gotten a few others to open up about themselves, too.

My relationship has been really unstable since I last posted, partly due to my realizing that this compromise IS kind of one-sided. My mental state has also been a little unstable since living with someone who disapproves of my transition causes me to second-guess myself constantly. I was genderfluid to begin with, and still will be no matter what body I have. If you don't want me to be a man, I'm easy to sway. (I guess the same can be said if you don't want me to be a woman. There's an interesting thought...)

I've started to wonder if the man-voice in my head is a multiple personality. I told my husband about this, and now he's trying to convince me that this is all it is, and I'm not trans after all--I've just got an opposite-sex personality trying to take over my body. There's a user here who has DID and had this exact scenario happen to them. They were very vocal about it the last time I was active here, warning others not to confuse DID with gender dysphoria. So, knowing that this is a real possibility doesn't help me feel any better.

He's currently away on a business trip, so I have the place to myself, and some quiet time to think. He went on a similar trip recently. My mind was set on FTM without confusion (with a little healthy doubt, perhaps), I felt great and alive, and I felt like my true persona was able to come out without the guilt or confusion. If the same thing happens this time, I think we can all infer what my outcome will be, although I hate to say it.

I may have derailed my own thread. If so, carry on!

live for you.
good luck!

Quote from: Brett on November 19, 2014, 10:07:26 PM
Know that if you do a "trial run on T", you are playing with fire when it comes to your voice
...
I would not suggest anyone consider a "trial run", unless they are ok with being stuck with a male voice living as female for the rest of their lives.

I will add my experiences. I did/am doing a "trial run."
Am i doing it for personal exploration? Partially, yes, i can admit that. I am genderfluid. I went to an informed consent clinic and honestly... i am no great fan of gatekeeping, but i did think to myself, "don't you want to gatekeep me just a little?"

It's been 5 weeks. My voice has dropped. A lot. It's not just lower, but noticeably raspy, less rich.
My singing ability is essentially gone. i used to have a lovely alto and was hoping for a handsome male singing voice. i simply cannot sing any more! (oh well, i never was the karaoke type anyway..)
My ability to modulate has also changed: while regular indoor-level speech is reasonable, my shouts, my laughs, my whispers are all cracked and hard to control.
Now i happen to like my new voice and it's still changing and settling... but well, that's it. There's no going back.
And i don't (currently) "live as a man."
So if you think there's a strong chance you might not stick with it, the voice change is something to really understand and prepare for. It's generally understood to be irreversible.
For me, it was the first change that i and others noticed.

I don't believe in self exploration with medical interventions. That is what therapy is for. Don't mean to be rude, but just my 2 cents worth. Medically transitioning isn't something meant to be messed with. If I were you, again, not meaning to be rude, but I would be having a more serious and upfront discussion with your partner about the importance of medically transitioning to you and how being held back will effect you psychologically. If he is really a good partner he will accept what is in your best interest and figure out how to deal with it in order to continue a good relationship with you. I did it with my ex, he broke up with me, but it was his loss and I needed to do what's best for me.  Again I don't intend to be rude and I apologise if I come across that way

I wouldn't recommend "trying" T if you're very unsure about it, but a lot of people can never be 100% certain on anything and big decisions sometimes require a tiny leap of faith. I have heard of trans guys who somewhat treated it as a trial run but never stopped because they found it was right for them. That may or may not be true for you.

If you start T, either you'll like it and want to keep going, which may jeopardise your relationship (if you continue T) or your wellbeing (if you feel forced to stop). Or you may not feel like T is right for you, and maybe feel relieved that you don't have that unknown hanging over your head and probably also keep your relationship. But those possibilities are pretty serious. Are you prepared for the possibility of feeling like you can never live without T again?

You say that you'd definitely want T if you were not in this relationship, so I'm assuming the "trial run" is less about your personal reservations and more about your partner. Sorry to ask, but do you see much of a future with this person?

Oh hey, I didn't know you guys were still responding after palexander's last message! Oops...I'm still grateful for alll your help! Truly.

I've been documenting my relationship here (it wasn't meant for that reason, but it ended up that way): https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,179367.0.html

In summary, this compromise is f*ed up and not going to last. Starting this thread helped me realize this. As time goes on, I'm less sure about spending the future together.

Also, part of the reason I'm dying to go on T is because of my voice, so that's no problem. I want a deeper voice no matter what, since I sound like an anime girl now and could live with sounding like a husky woman if I, in the off chance that I changed my mind, decided to live as cis female.

For the moment, I'm holding off because I'm making music and want to record a few of the songs in my current voice. After Christmas, I'm hoping to get some equipment so I can get that over with.

I hope to continue making music after HRT, though! DoYouRealize, what do you mean you can't sing anymore? Can you literally not make a note come out? Or is it just off a lot, and a matter of retraining your voice?

Good grief to all the people saying trial runs are a bad idea... That's exactly what my therapist and doctor both suggested to me that I do when I was so uncertain about it. So long as the person is aware of what changes are permanent, there's nothing wrong with trying it out. There is no way to know whether hormone therapy will actually be helpful or not without actually trying it, no matter how much it gets talked about. And just starting T doesn't obligate anyone to taking it for the rest of their life. You can always stop at any time.

You may not be a trans guy, i couldn't determine that. Perhaps you are more in between, but one thing you are very probably not is confusing DID with gender dysphoria. The idea that DID is even a "real thing" is highly controversial in psychology circles (from friends of mine in the field). If it does exist it is NOT what most people think, it's more of a generalized identity confusion and weakness in personality, perhaps with moments of disassociation. So isn't what most people think that you'd have a male self and a female self or fully formed inner personalities that could come out at certain times or something like that. It would be caused by severe trauma (like child sexual abuse).

The whole concept has been much criticized and many of the well-known cases (i.e. Sybil) were out and out frauds. There were several well-known programs for DID in the US, no longer exist and have been outed as fraudulent. What happens is that people who  are dxed this way are often hypnotized and under hypnosis you are likely to say whatever it might be suggested you say. So someone dxed this way may self-fulfill the prophesies of the person doing the diagnosis.

If you are in your 20s, it is typical to go thru periods like you describe. It could have actually described me pretty well. Having stormy irratic relationships can be a sign of a lot of common things like your age (so-called adjustment disorders), borderline, or ... Most people with these also have gender dysphoria.
You should know that the idea of DID may seem attractive to your spouse who might see this as a way you would not really be trans, which might make him happy, but the prognosis would be very guarded whereas the prognosis for trans people is good (all things being equal).

If you have gone thru severe extreme trauma, you might look into EMDR, it's actually a short term treatment with strong research behind it. It's very likely to be effective in helping you if you have this sort of history.

BTW, it is not correct anymore to term gender dysphoria as an identity disorder. I think myself that it is completely normal and part of the normal range of gender.


--Jay

Quote from: Gothic Dandy Luca on November 30, 2014, 10:50:11 PM

I've started to wonder if the man-voice in my head is a multiple personality. I told my husband about this, and now he's trying to convince me that this is all it is, and I'm not trans after all--I've just got an opposite-sex personality trying to take over my body. There's a user here who has DID and had this exact scenario happen to them. They were very vocal about it the last time I was active here, warning others not to confuse DID with gender dysphoria. So, knowing that this is a real possibility doesn't help me feel any better.

Quote from: Gothic Dandy Luca on December 22, 2014, 04:26:38 PM
Oh hey, I didn't know you guys were still responding after palexander's last message! Oops...I'm still grateful for alll your help! Truly.

I've been documenting my relationship here (it wasn't meant for that reason, but it ended up that way): https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,179367.0.html

In summary, this compromise is f*ed up and not going to last. Starting this thread helped me realize this. As time goes on, I'm less sure about spending the future together.

Also, part of the reason I'm dying to go on T is because of my voice, so that's no problem. I want a deeper voice no matter what, since I sound like an anime girl now and could live with sounding like a husky woman if I, in the off chance that I changed my mind, decided to live as cis female.

For the moment, I'm holding off because I'm making music and want to record a few of the songs in my current voice. After Christmas, I'm hoping to get some equipment so I can get that over with.

I hope to continue making music after HRT, though! DoYouRealize, what do you mean you can't sing anymore? Can you literally not make a note come out? Or is it just off a lot, and a matter of retraining your voice?

As a singer...you will not be able to sing like you used to, no.  You can still sing a bit but your vocal range will be much more narrow and you will struggle getting up on the high notes. I've tried it lately with singing some notes I could do pre-T and no sound came out. You can make your voice adjust but your voice needs to stabilize first because it does break and squeak alot. Think Justin Bieber.

Quote from: Pixie on December 23, 2014, 12:11:45 AM
Good grief to all the people saying trial runs are a bad idea... That's exactly what my therapist and doctor both suggested to me that I do when I was so uncertain about it. So long as the person is aware of what changes are permanent, there's nothing wrong with trying it out. There is no way to know whether hormone therapy will actually be helpful or not without actually trying it, no matter how much it gets talked about. And just starting T doesn't obligate anyone to taking it for the rest of their life. You can always stop at any time.

I don't fault them for saying what they did because they have some good points, but THANK YOU--it was from people working in the field (at least one therapist) where I got this idea from in the first place.

Quote from: Marcellow on December 23, 2014, 03:13:35 PM
As a singer...you will not be able to sing like you used to, no.  You can still sing a bit but your vocal range will be much more narrow and you will struggle getting up on the high notes. I've tried it lately with singing some notes I could do pre-T and no sound came out. You can make your voice adjust but your voice needs to stabilize first because it does break and squeak alot. Think Justin Bieber.

If it's a matter of adjusting, I'm willing to put in the effort. I'd really have to sit and reconsider everything if transitioning with T meant literally having no singing voice anymore.

Quote from: aleon515 on December 23, 2014, 02:06:27 PM
You may not be a trans guy, i couldn't determine that. Perhaps you are more in between, but one thing you are very probably not is confusing DID with gender dysphoria. The idea that DID is even a "real thing" is highly controversial in psychology circles (from friends of mine in the field). If it does exist it is NOT what most people think, it's more of a generalized identity confusion and weakness in personality, perhaps with moments of disassociation. So isn't what most people think that you'd have a male self and a female self or fully formed inner personalities that could come out at certain times or something like that. It would be caused by severe trauma (like child sexual abuse).

Do you also think it's not a "real thing"? I didn't think it was a controversial topic anymore. I know that I do dissociate, as do a lot of people, even if it's not severe enough to count as a disorder. I personally feel DID exists because I had a friend with it, before any of us knew what it was. It was very severe and scary. It wasn't like the people on Youtube who can seemingly switch alters at will. She'd suddenly transform into a completely different person, and had no memory of any of it whatsoever when we later told her about her episode. She would deny it even happened.

I started to think I might have it when I realized that I have had general identity confusion my whole life. I might check out the other thing you suggested. EMDR. I don't know how "extreme" my trauma is, but it won't hurt to just research it a little.

But as to the actual point of your post, I think you're right, it's not DID.

Well there is a chance you could lose your singing ability entirely, it's always possible.

Quote from: Gothic Dandy Luca on December 23, 2014, 03:50:38 PM
I don't fault them for saying what they did because they have some good points, but THANK YOU--it was from people working in the field (at least one therapist) where I got this idea from in the first place.

Welcome. My medical team told me that for people who strongly identify within the binary and as trans, coming to a decisive conclusion one way or another on hormones was much easier than for someone like me, who is probably neither. They said that sometimes, as was the case for me, you can spend all the time in the world talking about it and never get anywhere. And at that point, there is possibly much harm in continuing to try to force a conclusion for or against it without a test run. What they said to me is that there was very little risk of permanent changes sneaking up on me causing me lifelong regret if we went slowly, especially as careful as we all were being to not trigger me.

But also to go along with that, keep in mind that I am on a low dose of testosterone and my blood levels are regularly maintained slightly below the lower threshold for typical male bodies. It of course varies wildly from one person to another. But even within that variation, changes will happen much faster and more easily if you get your blood levels up into the typical range for male bodies.

I am more than a bit skeptical of the idea of someone losing their singing voice entirely, but seeing as I never ever speak myself, I'll leave that to others. I have heard of many people doing voice lessons both before and after transition and having significant success with it.

I guess, since I've been involved in choir- or singing-related things most of my life, I'm under the impression that any voice can be trained to sing decently well. I can't imagine a person going from "sings fairly well" to nothing unless they LITERALLY lose their singing voice. No notes come out, or they're too hoarse to project, or you're unable to modulate the pitch even with breathing exercises. I can't imagine someone being unable to sing unless their vocal chords have been damaged somehow, so when trans guys are like "I can't sing anymore" I don't know if they mean it literally, or if they  just can't carry a tune with their new chords. I can see the transition itself being a problem (while your voice is adjusting), but once it settles, I would think it would be like any other voice.

I remain skeptical. I am probably older than most of the guys here and was around when this was actually somewhat of a "popular" diagnosis. There was a center in Chicago, where I lived at the time, which closed down because alas most of the cases there were "caused" by psychologists who gave them the suggestion under hypnosis. It is *still* VERY controversial. I have been with people who claimed to have it without any evidence whatsoever that they did. But it's possible, there were things I didn't know happened. IF it does exist it is VERY rare (much more so than transgender which I don't think is actually that rare) and always caused by severe trauma from childhood, such a sexual abuse that is continual and severe, where this is the only "out" for the person.

General identity confusion is common enough to say it's an expected thing in your 20s. We don't have rites of passage or any ceremonies in Western culture to mark the ends of childhood/adolescence and the start of adulthood, which I think may be much of the problem.

EMDR could be helpful. Its a form of therapy which uses eye tracking. It sounds very simple, but it is really well studied. They are using it with PTSD primarily but it could work for other kinds of disorders, I'm not really knowledgable about it.

It is possible to have many other kinds of disabilities and disorders and still have gender dysphoria. It is possible to have general identity confusions and have gender dysphoria too.

--Jay

Quote from: Gothic Dandy Luca on December 23, 2014, 03:50:38 PM

Do you also think it's not a "real thing"? I didn't think it was a controversial topic anymore. I know that I do dissociate, as do a lot of people, even if it's not severe enough to count as a disorder. I personally feel DID exists because I had a friend with it, before any of us knew what it was. It was very severe and scary. It wasn't like the people on Youtube who can seemingly switch alters at will. She'd suddenly transform into a completely different person, and had no memory of any of it whatsoever when we later told her about her episode. She would deny it even happened.

I started to think I might have it when I realized that I have had general identity confusion my whole life. I might check out the other thing you suggested. EMDR. I don't know how "extreme" my trauma is, but it won't hurt to just research it a little.

But as to the actual point of your post, I think you're right, it's not DID.

On singing!
For me: i'm only a few weeks in on T. My voice is actively cracking, like a teenagers.
I haven't lost my pitch, but it's hard to control my voice right now as it's actively changing, The raspiness bugs me, i miss the richness of tone and hope that with practice i can get it back.
But i will just have to wait. Once it settles i may well be able to sing. I just doubt that i will ever sound as i did before.

This is all ok with me. I really love having a deep voice (and i present quite feminine half the time... even people who assume i'm a woman have begun to compliment me with references to Kathleen Turner. And it's going dooowwn.)

On singing. I'm older so that might have something to do with it, but I did lose the ability to sing. I had a good range. Very gradually I have gained back some ability and can maybe sing an octave on my best days. I have heard that low dose and workign with your voice during the whole time is helpful. I know a few guys who  sing in groups and so on and have lost their singing ability. Singing a little bit every day has kind of helped me. I sing a scale and push it up or down a note or two.

--Jay