This may sound silly, but I can't stop playing with the idea. Has anybody tried applying an estrogen cream to their pre-op genitalia? I wonder if it would bring about any difference (for example, the raphe splitting a bit).

The background is that many baby-girls and prepubertal girls develop so called labial fusion, where their labia stick or grow together in a similar way in which a male fetus develops its genitalia (labia fusing to form the scrotum). The treatment is to apply an estrogen cream. Or to wait for puberty, when body's own estrogens will do the work.

Another source of my silly idea is that even though antiandrogens are effective at bringing average testosterone levels in the body down sufficiently, the level in close vicinity of the testes might still be considerable. Therefore having estrogen concentration the highest in this area as well by applying the cream here might make sense.

Of course I don't expect anything significant. If mere estrogen cream could grow a vagina, MRKH (vaginal aplasia) girls would not be going through surgery.

Apple

I probably wouldn't, it might stop spermogenesis but because of the LH-FSH feedback it may convert the estrogen to testosterone throughout the rest of the body, but I'm not real shore.

So I couldn't recommend it.

I read that some post-op's are advised by their surgeon to use estrace or premarin cream on the area. Why and for what is beyond me... still trying to get an answer on that, as my surgeon never mentioned it.

Chloe G: I wouldn't worry about that... As far as I know, testosterone can be coverted to estrogens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase), but not vice versa. Also, the drop in gonadotropins LH and FSH and the associated stopping of spermatogenesis is brought about by increased estrogen in the body (and by antiandrogens), as sensed by the hormonal glands in the brain (pitituary), not in the gonads (testes). But anyway, my spermatogenesis ended completely after few weeks of HRT, so I didn't think of that

PinkCloud: the general reason for applying the cream to genital area in both post-ops and XXs is that the genital tissue is highly sensitive to estrogens (and DHT as well...). When girls enter puberty, their vulva develops, labia minora grow, all due to increased estrogen in the body and the sensitivity of the genital tissues to it. Also, the tissues can behave erratically on low estrogens, as in menopausal women who get vulvar atrophy and vaginal dryness. Both can be solved either by oral estradiol, or by lower estradiol doses applied as cream to the vulva or vagina.

Ha so you do think it will do some for your genitalia or why would you bother, I'm sorry to say that I really don't think it's gonna do anything much at all, but out of curiosity what are you trying to achieve by doing it if you do? Because this just doesn't make sense to me 

Well, like I have written above, I have sound reasons to think that nothing much would happen at all, as you are suggesting But you are right, there is a motive: what if I would be the 1 in 1,000,000 for whom it could actually do something? Even though I know it's silly, it's mostly harmless as well, so why not explore this, so that I can say to myself "I have tried everything".

Now that I have stressed that I know it's highly improbable, I'd add some technical comments. In general, having the right hormonal environment within the genital region is all one needs for it to develop in male or female direction (in the fetus). Unlike the development of the gonads, it is not dependent on your genes (XY/XX). Quite significant changes can happen in the genitals even after birth, during puberty: in guevodoces (5-alpha-reductase defficiency), the genitalia appear female until puberty, then the surge of teststerone transforms them into male (or more precisely, finishes the transformation that should have happened before birth). So mainly, I think the reason why nothing will happen when applying estrogen cream to pre-op genitalia is because they are adult. Adult tissue just wants to stay the same. Also, the body only seems to know how to grow new tissue and not how to "ungrow" any cells.

Quote from: PinkCloud on November 22, 2014, 12:03:43 PM
I read that some post-op's are advised by their surgeon to use estrace or premarin cream on the area. Why and for what is beyond me... still trying to get an answer on that, as my surgeon never mentioned it.

It can help soften the neo vagina tissue and add a little natural lubrication. That's it no magic. Been used for post menapousal women for dryness.

As for the OP waste of time on a genetic male tissue other then maybe softness?

Quote from: Apple on November 22, 2014, 03:01:09 PM
Well, like I have written above, I have sound reasons to think that nothing much would happen at all, as you are suggesting But you are right, there is a motive: what if I would be the 1 in 1,000,000 for whom it could actually do something? Even though I know it's silly, it's mostly harmless as well, so why not explore this, so that I can say to myself "I have tried everything".

If you are suggesting that applying the gel might revert the penis into a vagina then I would suggest it is more like 1 in 100,000,000,000 - I really doubt you will achieve anything. Good luck if you do!

The only reason to do this would be this is a very vascular part of your body so I would assume it would absorb into your bloodstream well applying it to this tissue. Don't expect it to change anything down there though. And as another person responded, I don't think the "excess estrogen will turn into testosterone" has any scientific basis.

There are some transitioners on this site who apply estradiol as a cream and it is their application method of choice for HRT.  Estrace works for post menopausal women and for some transgender people in transition.  YMMV of course, but they are not complaining:D

Quote from: mrs izzy on November 22, 2014, 05:53:10 PM
As for the OP waste of time on a genetic male tissue other then maybe softness?

Yeah, I know it'd be silly to expect anything beyond that. But technically, it doesn't matter that the genes of the tissue are male. In Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome persons, all the body including the genitals but excluding the gonads is female, despite the genes being XY. That's because in embryo development, only the differentiation of the gonads as either testes or ovaries is dictated by the genes. Everything after that is controlled by either sex hormones these gonads produce. (Oversimpified, but mostly true)

Only place I ever applied estrogen cream was to my nipples, once... Hoo boy

Quote from: Apple on November 22, 2014, 06:26:11 PM
Yeah, I know it'd be silly to expect anything beyond that. But technically, it doesn't matter that the genes of the tissue are male. In Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome persons, all the body including the genitals but excluding the gonads is female, despite the genes being XY. That's because in embryo development, only the differentiation of the gonads as either testes or ovaries is dictated by the genes. Everything after that is controlled by either sex hormones these gonads produce. (Oversimpified, but mostly true)

You do know that the in the development of genitalia the male equivalent to the female glad responsible for lubrication becomes the prostate, don't you? there is a lot of difference between male n female genitalia otherwise a surgeon could make all our genitalia vaginas, but no they can only make a Neo vagina.

.. .. Why would you want to do that =/? What do you expect, for your penis to transform into a somewhat vagina with some cream x_x?

 

Quote from: Clhoe G on November 22, 2014, 01:53:44 PM
Ha so you do think it will do some for your genitalia or why would you bother, I'm sorry to say that I really don't think it's gonna do anything much at all, but out of curiosity what are you trying to achieve by doing it if you do? Because this just doesn't make sense to me 

I'm sorry I wrote "ha" n I just wanted to say that we are not trying to be mean or anything, it just that a lot of us know it won't do much at all, tho it may enter the blood stream faster n reduce testosterone production in the genitals, I have also read somewhere (looked for it, can't find it again) that someone tried this when they first started hormones n all it did was give them a raging hard on, but I don't really know how such a thing could happen.   

HI!!

I did this when I was on the patch - 1/4 patch right on the testicle sack.  Then, I had an orchi and went on the gel so I stopped.  However, there were multiple effects in doing this. 

1.  Very vascular rich area led to very fast adsorption of E from the patch.  Unfortunately, because there was fast adsorption, the patch didn't last as long.
2.  Testicles tingled a lot.   
3.  There are glands that secrete a protein rich fluid into the testicle sack if your testicles are injured.  That mechanism kicked in and there was excess fluid in the sack.  This is what I wanted as it helped relieve testicular pain.
4.  The adhesive was very difficult to get off of the skin.   

I'm unaware of any other effect.

Jen

Quote from: Kirey on November 23, 2014, 08:04:29 AM
.. .. Why would you want to do that =/? What do you expect, for your penis to transform into a somewhat vagina with some cream x_x?

Well if it worked then you could save 20k by not having SRS... Unfortunately it does not work that way.

I'd hazard a guess that most girls who use creams have done it at least once.  Probably has little to no effect beyond what happens when using it on your arms or thighs  but mentally it has a big placebo effect.  Just so you don't think I'm some prude about this, I've applied estrogen cream to mine many times and kind of worried more about having it rub off into my panties and not completely soak into my skin. 

The only place I've ever applied estrogen cream is where I was directed by the leaflet: The inner side of my arms or my tights, and It was a low concentration cream that worked as a suplement. If I had applied to my breast I don't think I'd have gotten a lot save for some tenderness pain. I applied topical progesterone cream on my breasts, but that cream was more designed to counter the excess of E in breasts when pain would be excessive due to abnormal amounts of E (I.E.: Periods)

i was looking up stuff for t last night and some guy (cis) said that his doctor told him applying t gel to his scrotum would be more affective because it absorbs more quickly? i'm not sure if this is true or not, but i felt like passing along the info!