Quote from: ImagineKate on November 19, 2014, 07:22:53 PM
I don't think I've sugar coated anything. Specifically about my wife - she is upset and I am 100% to blame. Well my mom too if she took DES or similar.

Sidetrack here - you are not to blame. You made a decision. She then made a decision in light of your decision. This was her choice! You didn't "force" her to make that choice. You didn't tell her she had to make that specific choice. She chose to be upset.

This was one of the biggest things that my therapist had to ram into my head again and again. We cannot control the actions of others But each of us as individuals has a choice - to allow that other person to upset us or not.

If your wife is upset, it's because she chose to be upset. Perhaps not fully consciously, but it's still her choice. She could have chose otherwise but didn't.

(I am putting this out there publicly because so many trans people go through this, blaming themselves for the choices that others make when the trans person make a choice, usually a medically advised choice, about their own lives.)

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion of sugar coating.

So if someone makes fun of you on the streets or discriminates you, it is your own choice to be bothered by it?

Weird theory..

...Really really hope you're being sarcastic.  Personally I'm not so much bothered by these microagressions as the effect my transness may or may not have on the larger scheme of things as they relate to my own life.  Relationships are a lit harder to come by, for example.  As problematic as harassment is, for me personally that doesn't get to me. 

What I think we tend to downplay here and in many conversations about transitioning are the major yet less overt effects that tend to come along with transitioning.  People told me that I might get looks, or even called at from time to time.  Nobody told me that two and a half years into my transition I still haven't been in a relationship (except for one, which was quite toxic).  So, while it's easy to overlook how we face antagonism, what isn't so easy is that transitioning can be extremely isolating, if you don't have a good support network going in.  Isolating both because of people's judgements, but also the self-perpetuating cycle of shame and depression that isolation breeds.

Quote from: Kirey on November 23, 2014, 03:50:52 PM
So if someone makes fun of you on the streets or discriminates you, it is your own choice to be bothered by it?

Quite simply, YES! I get back at them by being truly free and happy and no one will take that from me with words.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on November 23, 2014, 04:54:00 PM
...Really really hope you're being sarcastic.  Personally I'm not so much bothered by these microagressions as the effect my transness may or may not have on the larger scheme of things as they relate to my own life.  Relationships are a lit harder to come by, for example.  As problematic as harassment is, for me personally that doesn't get to me. 

What I think we tend to downplay here and in many conversations about transitioning are the major yet less overt effects that tend to come along with transitioning.  People told me that I might get looks, or even called at from time to time.  Nobody told me that two and a half years into my transition I still haven't been in a relationship (except for one, which was quite toxic).  So, while it's easy to overlook how we face antagonism, what isn't so easy is that transitioning can be extremely isolating, if you don't have a good support network going in.  Isolating both because of people's judgements, but also the self-perpetuating cycle of shame and depression that isolation breeds.

If I was being sarcastic? I don't understand o.O?

Oh, hahaha, meant to say hope you wern't; it sounded a bit like you were!  Sorry, I'm on finals and my words seem to be less eliquant than usual.

so, I'm kind of curious , so , I guess we're talking about replies as in the case of the before and after pics. so we have some one who has talked of severe depression and dysphoria in the past and decides  to post some pics. the person in question could be 18 or 60 or any where in between. the person has been on HRT for 9 months . but has only a few changes that are barely noticeable and they ask whether there is a chance to pass. do you sugar coat , be brutally honest or  some where in between..  I try to  be kind and benign.

Yes, being upset is a choice. Better to channel that energy into positive actions for yourself, to reflect on why that other person made a nasty remark and what that says about them (not you!), or some other path.

But once you realize that the only person who can allow others to upset your emotional state is you, you gain a great deal of personal power over situations.

Now emotional encounters aren't physical encounters. If someone attacks you, then of course they are to blame for that. But at the emotional level, we always have a choice - to be upset or react in a different manner. Our inclination may be to get upset but that doesn't mean we lack a choice. It also means we were trained to react by becoming upset instead of reacting differently.

I'd tell them the truth-that it will be hard-but I'd say it kindly.

I think it is very important to be honest, but it is even more important to be honest and up lifting. If you cant figure out anything to say that wont damage someones self-esteem it is better to not comment. If you don't think someone passes or looks good, please don't tear them down. Many of us struggle with confidence and when we get positive feedback on our pictures it feels really good.

with that being said don't tell someone they are a 100% pass if you really don't believe that as I agree that could be bad for someone. A little sugar coating is ok imo. just too much is bad for that person.

Quote from: Kirey on November 23, 2014, 03:50:52 PM
So if someone makes fun of you on the streets or discriminates you, it is your own choice to be bothered by it?

Weird theory..

I do not agree with this either. no one is in complete control of their emotions. You have control of how act but not your emotions. So if someone calls you a ->-bleeped-<-, you can not control the way that it makes you feel but you can control your response.

I'm not saying we ought to tear anyone down...just that everyone here needs to have realistic expectations.  I didn't...I expected that I would be desirable, able to fit in, and I don't have that luxery after years of hrt.  If I had known what my chances really were, I would not have started transitioning so quickly...perhaps ever.  So, when people are considering such major decisions, it's important that we tell them the truth.  I belive that.

I agree 100% that sugar coating sucks. It isn't support and it doesn't help anyone. See I know there is a lot of it on this site people don't like to say bad things and I worry about it. For example I am always in the voice thread, it took me a long long time to get where I am on that. I do think I actually sound kinda decent now but I had to get a *lot* of people to say that before I believed it even a little cause I know what people are like on this site.

But you know, if I was told it was good when it wasn't and went out and used it and it went horribly wrong and I was humiliated, then I would be done, for a long time. That is a failing on my part but I am sure that is what I would end up doing. That aint support.

This is why people like Hanazono are awesome!

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on November 23, 2014, 09:17:17 PM
I'm not saying we ought to tear anyone down...just that everyone here needs to have realistic expectations.  I didn't...I expected that I would be desirable, able to fit in, and I don't have that luxery after years of hrt.  If I had known what my chances really were, I would not have started transitioning so quickly...perhaps ever.  So, when people are considering such major decisions, it's important that we tell them the truth.  I belive that.

I agree with this. We all imagine our self passing 100 percent and looing like a beautiful person once we transition, and unfortunately we rarely meet our expectations. I don't know how my transition is gonna go, but I know before I became active on this site I was pretty hopeless because I thought it was a sure thing that I would lose my family, and that I would never look completely cis. When I really felt that hopeless is when I was really a danger to myself so yes the sugar coating get outta hand here but it can definitely help with self esteem. it has for me...

I usually try to say something nice to everyone. If it is a "do I pass?" thread I'm replying to depending on the post I'm answering I still say something positive but also include what IMHO would make improvements to the individuals appearance whether it be a makeup change or outfit advice. In this way I still feel good about being positive, while also helping the person correct what may be hurting their appearance. And that is not sugar coating.

You can be positive and still suggest area's for improvement to help a person. You don't need to be negative. Many of our members are fragile and need to hear that positivity in your words to them.

And yet there are posts I feel I can't reply to because I don't have anything nice to say. In those instances, I feel it best to just not reply. As the old saying goes; "if you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." And in many of those instances somebody else thinks of something that can help the person. So you see you can be nice, positive, and helpful at the same time without sugar coating. You only need to choose your words wisely.

Peace everyone!
Ally

Quote from: stephaniec on November 23, 2014, 07:26:26 PM
so, I'm kind of curious , so , I guess we're talking about replies as in the case of the before and after pics. so we have some one who has talked of severe depression and dysphoria in the past and decides  to post some pics. the person in question could be 18 or 60 or any where in between. the person has been on HRT for 9 months . but has only a few changes that are barely noticeable and they ask whether there is a chance to pass. do you sugar coat , be brutally honest or  some where in between..  I try to  be kind and benign.

It depends on the person and the situation. You will never hear me bash someone into depression. But neither will I tell someone they look fabulous in a dress which makes them look fat. Besides, to me it isn't such a big deal whether someone passes or not. It matters if the transition is making them happy and that is often a lot more noticeable then whether they look feminine or masculine. But to answer that question, I would tell what I see, depending if she looks happy or not mention the feeling I see behind the picture and if needed give suggestions about how she could be happier with herself if not yet.

Many people on pass threads who show pictures seem to be unsure and thus a bit sad. Like 80% of the people would 'pass' if they smile, but the unhappiness and confusing comes trough and thus it looks like someone is still transitioning/in the middle of a change. Had a discussion about it already before but just to put my statement down here again; Passing is overrated.

Quote from: LizMarie on November 23, 2014, 07:30:02 PM
Yes, being upset is a choice. Better to channel that energy into positive actions for yourself, to reflect on why that other person made a nasty remark and what that says about them (not you!), or some other path.

I agree you can learn to deal with things, but having emotions is a given and thus so is being upset, happy, frustrated, sad or whatever kind of emotion. Having emotions is an instinct so putting that being upset is a choice.. is just silly. Unless you are telling me you never been angry, sad, disappointed or any of the negative, ever? But please do write a book about it then because it could change the world.

As example; Gender dysphoria is a feeling from way deeper within. You have it or you don't. You deal with it or you don't, but you do not have an option in feeling it or not you only have an option as of how you deal with it. The same with any kind of emotion/thought.

Quote from: Hanazono on November 24, 2014, 01:09:40 AM
every system produces a different response given the same input. so we do have the power to respond to events in our own unique way

You indeed do choose how you cope and react, but not how you feel.

Besides, if it is a reason to choose how we feel, why do people even sugar coat in the first place? Making no sense.

So why would it not be better to take the "bitter medicine", (TRUTH), and possibly learn and/or improve oneself...than to be limited to that sickening sweet "sugar pill" in the form of cloying "support".

Yes, I should clarify. There are things that will touch a nerve, ignite a feeling, but it is what we do with those feelings, how we react, that we control.

I can choose to express being upset or I can step back (internally), reassess the situation, and decide if another response is appropriate. And personally, I find that when I deliberately stop and examine that feeling, that the feeling often abates. And when it doesn't, I can instead channel it into appropriate action rather than anger or sadness or guilt (which is what the one inciting that feeling wants).

Quote from: LizMarie on November 24, 2014, 02:52:47 PM
Yes, I should clarify. There are things that will touch a nerve, ignite a feeling, but it is what we do with those feelings, how we react, that we control.

I can choose to express being upset or I can step back (internally), reassess the situation, and decide if another response is appropriate. And personally, I find that when I deliberately stop and examine that feeling, that the feeling often abates. And when it doesn't, I can instead channel it into appropriate action rather than anger or sadness or guilt (which is what the one inciting that feeling wants).

when you explain it this way I agree completely.