Hiii everyone,

At this point, I am 45 days short of my 2 year mark on hrt. I am extremely happy with the progress so far. But there are exactly three areas that continue to annoy me.

1) My face - Please don't get me wrong - It's not like I hate my face or how I look and I can pass almost 90-100% of the time. But, the only when I am wearing makeup and dressed en femme. I still present as a boy in office, where people who have seen me for first time - address me as 'sir' - Question is - Will I still continue seeing some changes in the face, or is it time for me to plan the ffs - I wanted to avoid the surgery, but I may not have a choice here.

2) My Breasts  - I am currently at 36B - But due to my wide rib cage -  my breasts seem so much smaller. Question - Have I achieved the maximum growth possible - my mom and sister are Ds and DDs, I was hoping to reach at a C. 

3) Waist and Hips - The HRT helped shift some of the fat around, giving me a 38-28-36 figure. But no matter how much I exercise, I don't seem to be able to reduce my waistline further or grow my hips. Can I still expect changes to occur after 2 years. My current weight is ~135 lbs and I am 5'4"

Lastly are there any other changes that I can expect beyond my 2 year mark or have the hormones done all that they could?

Thank you soo much in advance ladies -  hugs hugs ..

PS: I will post another thread to describe all the changes that have happened for me over the last 2 years of hrt...

I'm coming up on 5 years HRT and still seeing changes in face and fat distribution, albeit slowly and subtly. And breast development for cis girls takes 5-10 years, so it's unlikely to be much different for most of us. (I got the majority of my growth early and fast, but I'm still having very slight growth, most likely entirely from fat distribution at this point. But breasts are like 2/3 fat, so that's expected. )

I'm 10 yrs+ and still seeing changes. My doctors have also recently upped my dosages and added progesterone.

I will pass the 2-years-mark soon, too and for my observation HRT not produce any further changes. But i have to mentioned the HRT never worked to me - so maybe its not a good comparison. I had no breast development and there was no fat-shifting in the feminin regions. Before HRT i had 35-30-37, after 2 years 36-30-38. Maybe my body is ignoring estrogens or its a gen-damage.

I think you can really satisfied with your results - every result is something for beeing happy.

Or maybe your HRT regimen is not well suited for you, perhaps you could go see another doctor and ask second opinion. I found things really kicked up a notch when I switched to injections.

In the last 2 years weve tried any kinds of mediaction and antiandrogens. Bicalutamid was the last change in the fall of 2014, because Androcur makes me depressed. But after 6 month my testo rised up to 1.1 ng/ml (female range reaches up to 0,4/0,5) - so we went back to the old medication. Injections are not available in germany, so ive to take pills or gel. The most trans reaches levels up to 300/400 pg/ml E2 with pills or gel, but my body must have a hyperfast metabolism and reaches only maximus around 100 pg/ml. I think thats the reason why nothing is happen.

Quote from: galaxy on December 01, 2014, 03:48:13 PM
In the last 2 years weve tried any kinds of mediaction and antiandrogens. Bicalutamid was the last change in the fall of 2014, because Androcur makes me depressed. But after 6 month my testo rised up to 1.1 ng/ml (female range reaches up to 0,4/0,5) - so we went back to the old medication. Injections are not available in germany, so ive to take pills or gel. The most trans reaches levels up to 300/400 pg/ml E2 with pills or gel, but my body must have a hyperfast metabolism and reaches only maximus around 100 pg/ml. I think thats the reason why nothing is happen.

Bicalutamide gets your T levels sky high. It's just normal, inherent to its action.

Perhaps you should ask your doc to try some other antiandrogen or a combination? That's what I did and ended up with a weird combo... But it works.

Regarding your E levels never bother with that. It's not too low... All that matters is results. Once your good with your antiandrogens you can always talk about trying a different estrogen/route and hope for better results.

Quote from: galaxy on December 01, 2014, 03:48:13 PM
In the last 2 years weve tried any kinds of mediaction and antiandrogens. Bicalutamid was the last change in the fall of 2014, because Androcur makes me depressed. But after 6 month my testo rised up to 1.1 ng/ml (female range reaches up to 0,4/0,5) - so we went back to the old medication.

That is silly because bicalutamide DOES NOT reduce androgen (testosterone) production but ONLY BLOCKS it VERY effectively so that measuring levels on this anti-androgen is useless. Testosterone levels may be high but are blocked. I'm surprised your doctors don't know this. There was absolutely no reason, in this case, to drop bicalutamide. You should share this information with them and see what they say.

QuoteInjections are not available in germany, so ive to take pills or gel.

Two options:
1) find a compounding pharmacy in Germany that knows how to prepare estradiol valerate injections.
2) with doctor's prescription, order EV injections online or if not shipped to Germany, have them send it to other nearby country, go get them and so on. Injections have given me back my life.

QuoteThe most trans reaches levels up to 300/400 pg/ml E2 with pills or gel, but my body must have a hyperfast metabolism and reaches only maximus around 100 pg/ml. I think thats the reason why nothing is happen.

I tend to agree with you. What does your doctor think?

Quote from: Indoctrinated on December 01, 2014, 04:40:32 PM
Bicalutamide gets your T levels sky high. It's just normal, inherent to its action.

If taken alone. In combination with estrogen and/or progestogen, this is not true.

Quote from: KayXo on December 02, 2014, 12:23:26 PM
That is silly because bicalutamide DOES NOT reduce androgen (testosterone) production but ONLY BLOCKS it VERY effectively so that measuring levels on this anti-androgen is useless. Testosterone levels may be high but are blocked. I'm surprised your doctors don't know this. There was absolutely no reason, in this case, to drop bicalutamide. You should share this information with them and see what they say.

It was my mistake because it was my wish to get it. Much T means a lot of DHT and no, Bicalutamid doesnt block as effective as i tought. My libido was like in men-times and felt not good with it. I was sure T was working on many other places in the body again! I thought my E2 is enough for supressing the T in a female in range.

Quote from: KayXo on December 02, 2014, 12:23:26 PM
Two options:
1) find a compounding pharmacy in Germany that knows how to prepare estradiol valerate injections.
2) with doctor's prescription, order EV injections online or if not shipped to Germany, have them send it to other nearby country, go get them and so on. Injections have given me back my life.

My doctor doesnt want to give me any injections. Gel, patches or pills only - what you normally get in germany.

Quote from: KayXo on December 02, 2014, 12:23:26 PM
I tend to agree with you. What does your doctor think?

Nothing.

Quote from: galaxy on December 02, 2014, 02:12:45 PM
It was my mistake because it was my wish to get it. Much T means a lot of DHT and no, Bicalutamid doesnt block as effective as i tought. My libido was like in men-times and felt not good with it. I was sure T was working on many other places in the body again! I thought my E2 is enough for supressing the T in a female in range.

I had a similar experience with bicalutamide so I feel your grief. By the way did you take bic along with dutasteride?

Suddenly I had a feeling your doc skipped some classes...

I'm taking finasteride since may this year. It has really good effects. The bodyhair on the legs f.e. became thinner "over night".

Quote from: galaxy on December 02, 2014, 02:12:45 PM
Bicalutamid doesnt block as effective as i tought. My libido was like in men-times and felt not good with it. I was sure T was working on many other places in the body again!

Bicalutamide doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier and as such, doesn't affect androgen receptors in brain thus, an increase in libido is normal, also spontaneous erections may remain (come back), more ejaculate as well BUT the rest of the body will demasculinize and give E a better chance of working effectively. What other things did you notice?

QuoteI thought my E2 is enough for supressing the T in a female in range.

Not with how much E2 is in your body, too low to do much in the majority of cases.

QuoteMy doctor doesnt want to give me any injections.

Why not? Other than the reasons mentioned earlier (availability).

Quote from: Indoctrinated on December 02, 2014, 03:47:28 PM
By the way did you take bic along with dutasteride?

Why dutasteride? In most cases, I think bicalutamide with estrogen should be enough. Bicalutamide STRONGLY blocks androgen, hence DHT and estrogen also lowers to some extent while having significant anti-androgenic effects within cells. Dutasteride, I think, would probably be only needed in those especially predisposed to baldness and there is finasteride too, quite effective and cheaper unless covered.

Quote from: KayXo on December 02, 2014, 05:31:05 PM
Why dutasteride? In most cases, I think bicalutamide with estrogen should be enough. Bicalutamide STRONGLY blocks androgen, hence DHT and estrogen also lowers to some extent while having significant anti-androgenic effects within cells. Dutasteride, I think, would probably be only needed in those especially predisposed to baldness and there is finasteride too, quite effective and cheaper unless covered.

Well... Bic prevents T from attaching to its receptor in cells so mostly all your T roams free through the blood veins.

That leads to the following consequences:
(1) most T will remain free until reaching half-life;
(2) unless T is being reduced through another med (for instance, a progestogen) it will increase;
(3) more free T also means higher conversion rate to DHT and E through aromatase.

Though bic is known as the most powerful antiandrogen avaiable the higher conversion rate to DHT alone makes it dangerous (in certain circumstances excessive DHT may be lethal) and taking it along with finasteride/dutasteride is one of the best means to cope with the conversion peak.

It's not all about androgenic alopecia. DHT is so mean it also kills breast cells and makes your skin greasy.

To sum up steroidogenesis is complex on its own and considering all the genetics involved lots of people differ a little bit in that matter. That's the reason we must take all the theory with a tip of salt. There's no guarantee the same therapy will work for two people.

I think that if your hips were to grow, they would have started almost immediately. I remember that when I started my hips were 31 & jumped to 34 in the first few months. I did start somewhat early I guess though. From what I understand, people who start before 21 usually have some degree of hip growth.

Yeah what Jasmine said, I started around 21 well a few months before my 22nd bday but my hips gained about 3 inches within the first few months and it wasn't fat since I didn't start gaining weight till about a year into hrt.

Quote from: Indoctrinated on December 02, 2014, 06:40:40 PM
more free T also means higher conversion rate to DHT and E through aromatase.

Even if there is more androgen whether it be T or DHT, bicalutamide still blocks it. While conversion to E increases. If indeed the increase in androgen bioavailability would have been a problem, bicalutamide would not be prescribed to men with prostate cancer. Despite any increase in androgen, bicalutamide's action is so potent that the end result is still MUCH less androgenization. 

Quote
Though bic is known as the most powerful antiandrogen avaiable the higher conversion rate to DHT alone makes it dangerous (in certain circumstances excessive DHT may be lethal) and taking it along with finasteride/dutasteride is one of the best means to cope with the conversion peak.

Like I said, bicalutamide ALSO blocks DHT, it blocks ALL androgens. And if it were dangerous, it would not be prescribed to men with prostate cancer whose cancer apparently thrives on androgen, especially DHT!

QuoteIt's not all about androgenic alopecia. DHT is so mean it also kills breast cells and makes your skin greasy.

Kills or prevents breast cell development/multiplication? Kill is a STRONG word, lol and not quite right because T in transmen doesn't suddenly kill existing breast cancer cells; otherwise, there would be much less cases of breast removal (masectomy). Yes, I agree it does more than only prevent AA but I still think an anti-androgen alone, in most cases, is sufficient. 

QuoteThere's no guarantee the same therapy will work for two people.

Agree.

My hips "gained" about 1/2 inch in 2 years ... 
My body doesnt gain the fat at all ... 16% body fat and every new gramm goes to the belly. My breast really have 0% fat - theres is noting.


I think CPA is much stronger than Bic - CPA needs 5mg, Bic 25mg or 50mg.

That wasn't my understanding from papers...that a lot more CPA was needed to equate similar effects as bicalutamide in prostate cancer patients. Also, CPA has progestogenic effects which are slightly anti-estrogenic AND is not a pure anti-androgen so that it acts weakly androgenically at cells while bicalutamide is neither progestogenic or androgenic.

Quote from: KayXo on December 04, 2014, 08:03:18 PM
That wasn't my understanding from papers...that a lot more CPA was needed to equate similar effects as bicalutamide in prostate cancer patients. Also, CPA has progestogenic effects which are slightly anti-estrogenic AND is not a pure anti-androgen so that it acts weakly androgenically at cells while bicalutamide is neither progestogenic or androgenic.

The effects are totally different so comparing through a technical approach isn't quite practical...


From my experience:

Bic helped a lot with body hair thinning. Actuallly I've lost a ton of body hair. T levels remained high even with E. DHT high even with dutasteride. Feminization not as good as I expected. T: 976.0 ng/dL; Free T: 886.9 pmol/L; DHT: 1826 pg/mL.

I've been on CPA + spiro + E for the last 4 months. Results are rather nice. T: 8.0 ng/dL; Free T: 5.8 pmol/L; DHT was not measured.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on November 05, 2014, 08:10:28 AM
I'm coming up on 5 years HRT and still seeing changes in face and fat distribution, albeit slowly and subtly. And breast development for cis girls takes 5-10 years, so it's unlikely to be much different for most of us. (I got the majority of my growth early and fast, but I'm still having very slight growth, most likely entirely from fat distribution at this point. But breasts are like 2/3 fat, so that's expected. )

That is nice to see. I've improved quite a bit however minimal changes with my hips or waist line. Breasts, less body hair, nicer face, etc......have all improved nicely. However just no nice booty much at all.