Quote from: Gothic Dandy Luca on December 03, 2014, 11:14:09 PM
Whoa, that last line shot right through me. I wonder if I have some internalized transphobia of my own to sort out.

It got me in the same way.

Top surgery aside (I'm still sitting on it, ofc, but it feels really right), when it comes to my identity and where I'm going with this stuff, Bram nailed my last and biggest step. More and more, it's seeming like my situation is similar to his, and that being trans is my Big Scary Thing. I keep sifting through my life, looking for reasons why I am the way I am -- with the underlying thought that once I figure out the "real cause," I'll be able to solve my problems without taking "the easy way out [of being trans]."  But as I wiggle and worry at my feelings, it's become increasingly clear that my brain had categorized my gender as the danger zone, not the escape route.

Idk. We shall see. This is why I have a gender therapist, I guess.

Jeez, what an introspective thread. When I first posted, I figured the responses would be more along the lines of "don't get surgery before t" and not like a journey into my genderpsyche. But I love you guys for it, I really do.

The reason you won't hear any "don't get surgery before T" is it's not a common suggestion anymore. I know at one time. But I've even heard if you are going on T (I have no idea for you) that it doesn't matter much and that most surgeons don't even care anymore, do just fine without the T. Figuring out who the heck you are, might be the more important challenge?

Now that I've adjusted to being trans, it's not so big a thing anymore. I can't deny it once was and all. I still maintain the big thing is what you want with your body and if chesticles are what you want. You could even not identify with being trans and still have top surgery or you could be somewhat trans, or how ever you want to say it, but yes it does happen all the time. You could even be a butch lesbian, doesn't matter. I can tell you that I am just about the least conscious man of all time. I believe my gender is in between somehow. I am more comfortable in a "male package", so to speak. I like being referred to as he, him, Jay, etc. vs ma'am, she, my ex-female name. I think this is all about "gender psyche" and not too much re: top surgery per se.

Therapy might be very helpful to work out all that stuff. I mean it was for me.

--Jay

Quote from: captains on December 04, 2014, 12:43:01 AM
It got me in the same way.

Top surgery aside (I'm still sitting on it, ofc, but it feels really right), when it comes to my identity and where I'm going with this stuff, Bram nailed my last and biggest step. More and more, it's seeming like my situation is similar to his, and that being trans is my Big Scary Thing. I keep sifting through my life, looking for reasons why I am the way I am -- with the underlying thought that once I figure out the "real cause," I'll be able to solve my problems without taking "the easy way out [of being trans]."  But as I wiggle and worry at my feelings, it's become increasingly clear that my brain had categorized my gender as the danger zone, not the escape route.

Idk. We shall see. This is why I have a gender therapist, I guess.

Jeez, what an introspective thread. When I first posted, I figured the responses would be more along the lines of "don't get surgery before t" and not like a journey into my genderpsyche. But I love you guys for it, I really do.

Quote from: aleon515 on December 04, 2014, 01:09:23 AM
. . . You could even not identify with being trans and still have top surgery or you could be somewhat trans, or how ever you want to say it, but yes it does happen all the time. You could even be a butch lesbian, doesn't matter. . .

I agree actually-- my brain took me on a bit of a tangent and I shared it :-).  For deciding on top surgery, the question that really matters is: do you want top surgery?  If the answer's yes, and you're relatively confident it's a permanent thing, then going for it is reasonable no matter what your gender identitification is.  You can still present as female after top surgery.  Something irrevocable has changed about your body, but nothing permanent has happened to your public presentation.  Top surgery is actually way less significant than T in that way (facial hair and a deep voice are harder to change back). 

Transition, or not, can be broken down into separate events.  If having breasts is uncomfortable, embarrassing, prevents you from going about your normal activities, is a source of depression, or just does not feel like "you", then consider having surgery.  Any other decisions you may or may not make regarding body, gender, transition, hormones, do not have to be a part of this decision.  I think it will become clear to you in time, though I know it can really get swirling in your head     I have absolutely no regrets about my chest surgery, though I hated those chesticles since the very sad day they appeared...

captains, I went back and forth for 15 years about top surgery.  Even though I have never liked my breasts, was disgusted at them being touched sexually, etc., I still worried I would regret it (or that people would be able to tell...even though I have been binding for 15 years I was still worried).

It was the best decision I ever made.  I didn't start taking T until recently and my top surgery was a year ago.  You are right that people won't notice at all, especially with the size you are saying you are.  If you want to live as female for the rest of your life it will not be a problem.

NOW, when I am saying the above I am assuming that you wear all male clothing (or at least the top part).  I can't imagine it wouldn't be noticeable in women's clothes.

I went on T in September, that took me 10 years of decision making and still I started at very low dose (needed to make sure it was the right thing).

Like you said, you can always get breast implants if you decide it was the wrong choice.  I tell myself I can always get voice feminization surgery from Yeson (like the ladies do), if I made a wrong choice with T.  Hey, whatever works to get me over the line!  I couldn't stand the "wondering" anymore when it came to top surgery and then the same thing happened with T.

I honestly think that you should try t and see if you don't feel, within two months, how amazing your emotional stability can become. It makes you feel "right". And honestly you will begin to feel grounded, that is, if it's where you are truly meant to be.

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

Well not sure you should go thru taking T and all if you think that at some point you would want your trachea shaved. Most trans women do NOT get this done (actually not even sure I know anyone who's had it). It's risky surgery and expensive. OTOH, having a deep voice is not the be all of being read as male. I am baritone (perhaps a bit lower) and I am, even now, sometimes read as being female. I mean it's not common but still. Breast implants are a more easy type thing. Perhaps not entirely fun but certainly not a dangerous surgery generally.

The three irreversible (relatively) things on T are voice, clitoral enlargement, and facial hair. I believe you should think of these three things as irreversible. But of course, they take time to get. You don't wake up one morning as a baritone.  A low gradual dose is an option.


--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on December 05, 2014, 09:15:17 PM
Well not sure you should go thru taking T and all if you think that at some point you would want your trachea shaved. Most trans women do NOT get this done (actually not even sure I know anyone who's had it). It's risky surgery and expensive. OTOH, having a deep voice is not the be all of being read as male. I am baritone (perhaps a bit lower) and I am, even now, sometimes read as being female. I mean it's not common but still. Breast implants are a more easy type thing. Perhaps not entirely fun but certainly not a dangerous surgery generally.

The three irreversible (relatively) things on T are voice, clitoral enlargement, and facial hair. I believe you should think of these three things as irreversible. But of course, they take time to get. You don't wake up one morning as a baritone.  A low gradual dose is an option.


--Jay

Hey, Jay.  I was actually teasing about voice feminization surgery (I wasn't talking trach shave?).  I started T with my eyes wide open about the lack of reversibility of my voice.  Hence the 10 year decision making process (afraid I would decide it was the wrong choice and hard to go back after voice drop).  I was just trying to get across the point that I am such an indecisive person that even when the right choice is clear, I still have to trick myself into things.

That's good, I wouldn't THINK you would think that. But who knows. Yikes trach shave is scary stuff. I think there are the three things that are pretty irreversible. Obviously of the three the voice and facial hair are the most problematic if you end up deciding otherwise. I dont' think clit lengthening is as problematic.

--Jay

Quote from: Brett on December 06, 2014, 08:13:32 PM
Hey, Jay.  I was actually teasing about voice feminization surgery (I wasn't talking trach shave?).  I started T with my eyes wide open about the lack of reversibility of my voice.  Hence the 10 year decision making process (afraid I would decide it was the wrong choice and hard to go back after voice drop).  I was just trying to get across the point that I am such an indecisive person that even when the right choice is clear, I still have to trick myself into things.

You're right in terms of the big three: voice, hair, growth.  Hair will get softer, grow more slowly and the hair shaft thinner I understand, the longer you are off the T.

Quote from: aleon515 on December 07, 2014, 03:33:01 PM
That's good, I wouldn't THINK you would think that. But who knows. Yikes trach shave is scary stuff. I think there are the three things that are pretty irreversible. Obviously of the three the voice and facial hair are the most problematic if you end up deciding otherwise. I dont' think clit lengthening is as problematic.

--Jay

I have no special insight here, just wanted to post that I so understand where you're coming from. I've been on the non-binary boards and occasionally lurk on the FTM boards, asking myself where I really belong. For me it's really the difference between identity and presentation. At my age, I have no intention of fully transitioning. But, I really, really, really want top surgery. Like I'd do it tomorrow if I could. But, I don't care about pronouns. I know who I am. T is unlikely for a variety of reasons, though it does sound appealing. Anyway, I just wanted to offer a note of support that a) I think it's beneficial to really reflect on things, and b) you're not alone! Definitely not alone.

Quote from: aleon515 on December 04, 2014, 01:09:23 AM
You could even not identify with being trans and still have top surgery or you could be somewhat trans, or how ever you want to say it, but yes it does happen all the time.
--Jay

Did that! Still don't identify as trans either. I was worried I might regret it, but even with as challenging as the actual surgery was for me and the reality of chest scars, I have absolutely no regret. The convincing moment for me was trying for a week to leave the house without a binder on, and finding that I just couldn't do it.

Hey, all.

First off, I wanted to thank you guys for all your empathy and support. Honestly, just hearing people say ''I get where you're coming from!'' and ''You're not alone!'' has meant the world to me these last few weeks. Transition can be an isolating process, and I'd been feeling like I didn't belong anywhere, amongst anyone. This whole thread was so heartening, I can't even describe it.

Quick update: as you can see from my fancy new ticker, I did make a few calls. I spoke to three different surgeons, and have scheduled some consultations. Garramone's office has been the most consistently professional and easy to reach, and that's really won me over, so I might be joining the clone ranks soon. A very exciting thought.

I wouldn't say my plans are set in stone. I still have a lot to think about. But after waking up choking and gasping in the night because I'd fallen asleep in my binder, I felt pretty strongly that something had to give. I might be able to live with my chest as is, but the thought of doing more than just tolerating my body and of living without the low-key suffering that's daily binding -- that sounds more appealing every day.