So, I started seeing a gender therapist. They are very experienced in helping people with transgender issues.

I'm going to be honest. There is no way that I will ever transition. I think I would rather just die. I feel like it is too late for me since I'm almost 25. I don't think that hormones and FFS would be enough to make me look female.

This might be a dumb reason, but a big reason why I am afraid to transition is that I know I would not pass and would be extremely unattractive by female standards. As a male, I'm maybe a 8/10, but as a female, I'd be like a 3/10. A couple of people that I've told about this have remarked about how I would need to do something about my jaw. They are right, but it is not so simple as a re-contouring. I have severe mandibular prognathism. I had a consultation with an orthodontist years ago, and the price for fixing it with insurance would be well over $30,000 for the surgery alone. I also have a receding hairline, and the price for a hairline advancement is way more than I expected ($10-$14 thousand). It doesn't help that I have a large adam's apple, 46 in shoulders despite not being muscular, etc.. Basically, everything about my body is definitively masculine, and from my perspective, the whole point of transitioning is to be seen and accepted as female. If I look in the mirror and still hate what I see, what is the point? In any case, I cannot and will probably never be able to afford surgeries.

I can't stop thinking about all of this and crying. I wish I had understood this and started HRT in high school, but instead I ended up on high doses of anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds for those years. It is just... unfortunate.

Has anyone been in a situation like this, started HRT this late, and been able to make it work?

Mara, many of us here started out way later than 25 when we started transitioning. I started my transition when I was 36. So first time around I wasn't fully ready and the family situation made safety for all of us an issue. So I had to pull back even though my health suffered later for it. Even that time I was around 28 which is still older than you are now. It's never to late. I wouldn't sell yourself that short. You will be surprised what the hormones can do and what procedures you may or may not need to look as feminine as you want. Also remember much of passing as female is how you come off to other people. It's your actions, behaviors, speech patterns, and few things like emphasizing your feminine features and doing the opposite with your masculine ones. You would be surprised what just a little hair and makeup can even do. Take stalk in the potential you do have and not what you don't have. Try looking at this from the positive angle. Believe in yourself. Believing in yourself is one of the most important steps you can make in your transition. I know you can't see it now, but at least try before trying to give up. Life is precious no matter what. You can read through the many threads on here and look on places like you tube and you will be surprised by the number of those who were very masculine to begin with that do pass as woman now. Starting at 25 is a blessing your still so close to your original puberty. Many of us wish we could have been so lucky. Chin up and hang in their. You can do this if you want to. Hugs and God Bless
Mariah

Hi Mara, If I could have started at 25 I'd be overjoyed. You're still young and you can still get a good result.

There are people who start at 50 and 60 and turn out pretty good. In fact it can even take years off your appearance.

Dear Mara,
I have two female friends w/ heavy jawlines.  It's an inherited thing for one. The other woman had her jaw broken, I think, and that's just how it healed.  No one thinks they are any less female b/c of it.  They both have blond fluffy hair to balance it out.  Re: hairlines.  My aunt has worn a wig since she was in her late twenties b/c she had naturally thinning hair.  Just one of those things that women do to conform to female standards of beauty.    You can do it, too.  You certainly won't be the only woman who enhances her looks with a little hair help.

Chris

PS I'm starting transition now in my early 50s.  Yes, it's worth all the drastic changes, to me.

Greetings Mara,
I choose to not transition in my early years, mostly for social reasons and knowing that I would never pass and being scared to death. I was somewhat successful living in that world with some pretty heavy addictions to get me past the times when things were out of control. At about 50  I had locked my self away and gave up on living any kind of life. at some point during my mid fifties I decided I needed to seek out help and therapy, for me to continue I needed to be me, passing or not. So I accepted my path and all the good and bad that change exposed me and my family to.
The past three years have been the best of my life. I am living again socially and spiritually.
This is my story I am not trying to say what you should do or not, but wanted you to see a different view about being you if we are lucky enough to pass that allows us even more freedom to express ourselves.
after many therapy sessions ( a few years ) I accepted me,
never give up there is a level that we all can live in, sometimes it is not so clear what that is right off 

sorry love for rambling

xoxo best regards

Quote from: Hanazono on December 12, 2014, 08:08:02 AM
with all respect
you are the only one who can tell hirself whether or not to transition.
if you feel you won't have a good outcome... accept that you can't transition.

then,  walk away from transitioning as hard as you can.

I respectfully disagree with this terrible advice.

Yes, you're the only one who can tell yourself if you can transition or not.  But the way to reach that answer is not by drawing such dramatic conclusions this early in the process, and certainly not while feeling sorry for yourself and never having given it a good shot.

Mara, you're young.  If you're an "8/10" as a guy, you might find that you'll be far more than a "3/10" as a female.  And even that's beside the point.  WHO CARES?  If transitioning is all about looking beautiful, then you'll never be satisfied, you'll never be happy, and you'll spend your entire life buying BMWs for surgeons' kids.  Few of us will, but then again, few cis women are actually beautiful.  Don't believe me?  Go out to your local supermarket for an hour, and count the number of beautiful women you see.  It'll be a fraction of the female population, the vast majority of whom are decidedly plain and diverse, and many of which are below a "3/10".  If your goal is to be a passable female who blends in with the average women wandering around, it's not that hard.  Go browse some of the before and after threads here.

Transition is about becoming true to who you are inside.  The outside follows naturally.  If you're truly female inside (or whatever gender you find yourself), then become that person.  If staying male makes you so desperately unhappy, then you owe it to yourself to change because where you are right now isn't working and turning your back on it forever will be a recipe for utter disaster in five, ten years time.  Mara, read Jerri's post directly above this one.  She's offers such perfect advice for someone in your exact situation.

If you feel you can't have a good outcome, try anyway.  Stick with the therapy.  Give HRT a shot.  Do all the little things that make women look like women, because honey they aren't all supermodels under all that makeup and they don't roll out of bed each morning looking cute!

Whatever you do, don't walk away from transitioning as hard as you can because you feel you won't have a "good" outcome.  I guarantee that life as an average-looking woman will be far happier and longer than life as a guy struggling so hard with gender identity issues.

As an aside, I'm getting sick of the unrealistic goals people set for being "passable".  Trust me, passing as female generally doesn't require FFS and SRS and hair transplants and small bones and starting HRT at age 7, and continuing to spread the false idea that in order to pass we have to be pretty too (in the traditional Vogue sense of the word) is dangerous.  Passing DOES NOT equal becoming beautiful, at least not on the outside.  If anyone's idea of passing means walking into a nightclub full of twenty year old beauties and fitting right in, then they're utterly mistaken.  Passing means being able to go about your daily life, the boring stuff, looking like a female (and there's countless millions of different ways to look like a female) and feeling good about yourself and not having the vast majority of people pointing and giggling.  And even if they do, who honestly gives a damn?  Confidence, honey.  That's passing.

Rant over.  Mara, don't give up.  Stick with it for now.  And don't ever turn your back on who you really are inside because you have this (almost certainly wrong) idea that you'll never look feminine enough.

Quote from: Hanazono on December 12, 2014, 08:42:49 AM
o God
give us the courage to change things that we can
the peace and serenity to accept what we cannot
and the wisdom to tell the difference

Doesn't quite apply to transitioning.

For most transitioners, especially those just starting out, they lack courage to change things, they assume too many things are unchangeable, and they lack the wisdom to listen to themselves and trust that they can become a better version of themselves and live happier lives.

If only walking away was so simple. If only the dysphoria could be turned off like a light.

As someone who started transitioning age 23 I was on HRT for two years until I decided it wasn't going to work. My biggest barrier to transitioning was not how I looked but my unshakeable belief that it was never going to work. After more than twenty years of feeling miserable I knew I needed to transition more than ever. At 47 I believed I had zero chance of passing or success. But guess what, I was wrong. I had to put aside the fear and the doubt and trust that there were ways to make it work.

Before you write yourself off go check out the various before  and after threads, I think you'll be astounded at what hormones and presentation and confidence can do to transform people.

well. here's 2 more cents to the pot. I started at 62 wish I was able at 18. Had this going on inside of me since I was 4. You do what you need to do to have a decent life on this planet. The thing is you don't have to transition if that's not what you want. You need to spend the time you are at now with a therapist to help you see what you really want or at least get the best possible approximation of what you truly need. It's a difficult problem to solve . but it's doable .

I don't know what you guys are talking about when it comes to the women at the supermarket. Every time I go to one, I always see tons of gorgeous women. I think that most of the women I see look good. No, they don't all look like Victoria's Secret models, but they are attractive as women.

I will admit that I do really want to begin HRT, but I definitely don't feel like it would work. I look like a goblin, especially when I smile.

I'm 32 myself which means I've got it even harder than you do. At first I felt the same way, but now I would rather be a 3/10 girl than an 8/10 guy. I've also noticed that being sexy isn't a requirement for passing.

Quote from: Mara on December 12, 2014, 12:31:29 PM
I don't know what you guys are talking about when it comes to the women at the supermarket. Every time I go to one, I always see tons of gorgeous women.

You must shop/live in a pretty nice area then :p

While I'm admittedly quite new to all of this stuff, I have a few things I want to suggest. To be taken with a grain of salt I'm sure as I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but who knows maybe it'll help, that's my intent.

So please remember this comes from a place of love, even if the things I say are complete bs or whatever.

First of all, you can't run around comparing yourself to other people constantly and not feel negatively about it. There's always going to be someone smarter/faster/prettier/stronger/more talented/whatever than you, in any metric you care to measure yourself against them with. If, by some miracle, you happen to literally be the best in the world at a given thing, wait a year and it won't be true anymore.

The other side of that is there's always going to be someone worse than you. While it's normal and probably fairly healthy to take some amount of pleasure when you go against them, try not to go overboard and be sadistic about it. Be a gracious winner, both because you'll look better and perhaps take a little of the sting out of their defeat. Don't make the world a worse place for anybody else trying to live in it.

While it's not as simple as just not comparing yourself, it's going to happen a little inevitably, don't allow yourself to focus on it too much. Take what enjoyment you can out of what you are able to accomplish, however little that may be. And then move on. No single aspect can or should define you as a person. Find a thing that makes you happy, exploit the hell out of it for a little (but not to the detriment of any other aspect of you or your life), and then find another one. Eventually you'll have a whole bunch of stuff that makes you happy, even if each individual thing only provides a teeny bit of happiness, it's cumulative.

It's a perspective shift. And...perhaps this is ignorance talking, but I'm getting the feeling that (at least some?) TG issues are mental issues as much as physical issues, if not more so. If you can't love yourself and be -some- level of happiness besides rock bottom as a guy, then being the most beautiful woman in the world probably isn't going to fix that. Don't get me wrong, it'd be nice. The potential happiness quotient would be MUCH higher if I could run around looking gorgeous making jaws drop, but it's not zero'd out if I can't.

If transitioning really can't happen for you, then screw it, you CAN be happy anyways. And it really is a choice to be happy or not. It's certainly not as simple as going "Okay, I choose to be happy now" and poof you're all smiles and rainbows and kittens, but like anything else worth having it takes effort on your part. You have to make good choices on what to focus on, what to allow in your life, etc.

Now I understand that there are things out there that can invalidate the previous statement. Some people have chemical imbalances or brain physiology that makes them depressed in a way that's not fixable through force of will (RIP Robin Williams ). My dad was one of these people, my gf is another. I've known many, and I thought I was one for a long time. I've been on many different anti-depressants, and I spent the first 25 years of my life in a place so dark that I thought no light would ever shine there again. I spent the last 8 years (in Jan) figuring out how to not be miserable and hate myself. If you're one of these people who simply can't be happy no matter what they do, it's probably the issue you should be focused on fixing before you make any radically life altering decisions, as that sort of thing can distort the way you see things. Like the opposite of rose colored glasses.

I started out sitting in the sunshine for a few minutes whenever I could. It felt good, and apparently there's some thing with skin-produced vitamin D or something that occurs when sunlight hits the skin, that can cause a lot of problems with your brain if the sun never touches you. Also, skin cancer because the sun, so don't over-do it. While I was getting a little sun, I paid attention to the things around me that were pleasant. Butterflies in the bushes, hummingbirds, a goofball squirrel that thought he was a ninja (but I saw him!). The more you look the more you can see. I guess this is wandering pretty far away from the issue at hand, and it's getting pretty long now so I'll try and wrap it up.

Acceptance comes from within. Even if you are stuck as a guy forever, there are certainly things you can enjoy about it, right? Take getting dressed in the morning. You have to put on ugly male clothes you don't like and certainly don't want to wear. That's by far the easiest thing to focus on, and if you could just wear exactly what you wanted you'd be a million times happier than you could possibly be any other way.
But what you have to see is that it's pretty awesome to be able to get dressed in like 30 seconds. And that even if you can't wear that ridiculously cute skirt you saw in the ad, you can still pick out clothes that look good on you and make you look good. It won't make you -as- happy, but there's still some happiness to be eeked out of even the darkest clouds.

I don't know you. Any of you reading this, but I love you. If anything I've said is complete crap or offensive in some way, I'm truly sorry.
<3

Quote from: IdontEven on December 12, 2014, 01:48:09 PMWhile I'm admittedly quite new to all of this stuff, I have a few things I want to suggest. To be taken with a grain of salt I'm sure as I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but who knows maybe it'll help, that's my intent.

When advice is as good as yours, you need offer no apology whatsoever for being new to any of this.

I started when I was 58.  I wish I'd started 40 years earlier.  25 isn't old.  There's no time limit.  But I can tell you this: if you leave it till you're 58, chances are you'll regret it.  58 years of not being yourself isn't much of a life.

You've been given some very good advice on this thread.  I hope you'll consider it carefully.  And wherever life takes you, I wish you much joy.

This is exactly me. I can relate to every single thing you've said. I'm also 25. I also don't exactly feel too great at the moment. I also sometimes stray into those dark thoughts about where I might be one day if I get to that point where  it would be transition or die.

But I will say this. I'm not going to give up trying to feel better. I wake up every day with the hope that  I'll learn something new or learn to feel differently. So ye, I might not be the best person to give advice, but I'd just say don't give up that hope and keep trying, keep up therapy and keep looking for whatever works for you. People on here have helped me too. Good luck. We seem to be in a similar place.

Thank you all for the advice. I've basically decided that I can't do it because of my jaw/chin. It would be freakish on a woman, and as it stands, it is stronger than the chins on 99.9% of men.

Part of me says that I should just bite the bullet and not care if I'm ugly and completely non-passable. It is not that I would not be cute. It is that my jaw would be horrendous.

Idonteven- That is good advice. I know that sunshine does help your body produce melatonin, which is used by the body to make serotonin as well. Getting sunlight is critical for maintaining serotonin.

Quote from: Mara on December 12, 2014, 12:31:29 PM
I don't know what you guys are talking about when it comes to the women at the supermarket. Every time I go to one, I always see tons of gorgeous women. I think that most of the women I see look good. No, they don't all look like Victoria's Secret models, but they are attractive as women.

I will admit that I do really want to begin HRT, but I definitely don't feel like it would work. I look like a goblin, especially when I smile.

A lot of these women don't just throw on a jeans and t shirt and walk out the door. Beauty takes work. I've seen many ugly ducklings completely transformed with the right ingredients - clothes, makeup, hair, accessories and attitude.

Quote from: ImagineKate on December 13, 2014, 07:58:09 AM
A lot of these women don't just throw on a jeans and t shirt and walk out the door. Beauty takes work. I've seen many ugly ducklings completely transformed with the right ingredients - clothes, makeup, hair, accessories and attitude.

That is true.


I keep switching back and forth between telling myself I can do it (namely start HRT) and telling myself I can't. When I tell myself I can't, I start crying uncontrollably and thinking bad thoughts. When I tell myself I can, I feel better albeit terrified.

I guess I need to something. I don't know what though.

You can start maybe by experimenting with your look. Get some help, maybe from a local transgender support group or local friends. Seriously I was totally lost until I reached out. Small changes can do wonders and boost your confidence.

Quote from: Mara on December 13, 2014, 07:30:13 AM
Thank you all for the advice. I've basically decided that I can't do it because of my jaw/chin. It would be freakish on a woman, and as it stands, it is stronger than the chins on 99.9% of men.

Part of me says that I should just bite the bullet and not care if I'm ugly and completely non-passable. It is not that I would not be cute. It is that my jaw would be horrendous.

Idonteven- That is good advice. I know that sunshine does help your body produce melatonin, which is used by the body to make serotonin as well. Getting sunlight is critical for maintaining serotonin.

I just passed a mirror and had the same thoughts about my jaw/chin. But that was only after I took (admittedly a very quick) glance and saw a girl in there, somewhere, so I had to stop and look again, and then start searching for flaws and imperfections and things to doubt.

Perhaps "taking it on the chin*" has left ours a bit overdeveloped?

*As in to stand up to something adverse, such as criticism or to receive the full brunt of something, get your mind out of the gutter!