I dont know if this might be an uneducated question but I wonder about some people stating here they have estrogene levels of around 600 pg/ml.

Isnt this far too much when you take a look at the natural hormone cycle of a woman?

follicular phase: 44-183 pg/ml

ovulation: 150-528 pg/ml

luteal phase: 60-211 pg/ml

I thought a healthy level would be a compromise of these ranges, 150-200 pg/ml. Am I wrong? I refer to post-op levels here.

We're not bio females so there's no comparison on levels. I'm geneticaklly female but have a penut (hey, I'm using that from now on since if you look isude, there's two nuts, well not anymore, and that's the size of it lol but really i have no idea I never had my E levels checked in the year of I have been going to the mazzoni center, a gender clinic in Philly. A very good one. It's suppressing T my endo cares about. I'm on a high dose of  E so why check I guess. can only go so much higher and my feminization is fine and all my other blood levels are great so i never asked. Don't care as I'm a 32D-25-35 so must be working, as I have a very femme bod. I love my body.

Quote from: melanie on December 14, 2014, 05:12:05 PM
I thought a healthy level would be a compromise of these ranges, 150-200 pg/ml. Am I wrong? I refer to post-op levels here.

This is almost exactly what my endo would like my levels at after SRS next year .

He's always said and aimed for normal female levels for me.

So it is quite common on HRT to have a level of 400pg/ml or higher? I just know my own which is currently around 150. Is it just up to the doctor or are there any guidelines about this?

The right level for you is the one that can supress T production and produce feminisation. This is different for everyone. Some require just a fraction, some a little more  So if your levels are working, then relax. 

I think we need to get past this notion that more is better. It simply isn't.

Quote from: melanie on December 14, 2014, 05:12:05 PM
I dont know if this might be an uneducated question but I wonder about some people stating here they have estrogene levels of around 600 pg/ml.

Isnt this far too much when you take a look at the natural hormone cycle of a woman?

follicular phase: 44-183 pg/ml

ovulation: 150-528 pg/ml

luteal phase: 60-211 pg/ml

I thought a healthy level would be a compromise of these ranges, 150-200 pg/ml. Am I wrong? I refer to post-op levels here.

When taking shots there is a huge swing. To my analysis you would almost need to take an E test every day in a series to form a composite of what happens when one takes a shot. The 600 pg/ml doesn't mean much other than trouble if it's only there for four hours in a week.

Quote from: SammyRose on December 15, 2014, 02:23:09 PM

So if your levels are working, then relax. 

The problem is more that I have the impression that my levels are not working very well. So I would like to get an overview how other women handle this situation. From my experience, an increase in estrogene dose improved how I feel and it made my body more female. But this happened to a very small degree within years. It seems to me that my body needs a higher level of estrogene. I wonder how far I can increase the dose without running the risk of overdosing. I currently switched from gel to tablets
(sublingually) and hope this does improve things.

Quote from: melanie on December 17, 2014, 03:53:29 PM
The problem is more that I have the impression that my levels are not working very well. So I would like to get an overview how other women handle this situation. From my experience, an increase in estrogene dose improved how I feel and it made my body more female. But this happened to a very small degree. I wonder how far I can increase the dose without running the risk of overdosing. I currently switched from gel to tablets
(sublingually) and hope this does improve things.

My endo has previously told me that gels are just too weak to be very useful for MtF transgender, unless they've had SRS or an orchiectomy. If what my endo says is true, perhaps that could slow down feminising effects? The pills at least are effective . The main thing is to make sure your T is suppressed properly, otherwise it will dominate over estrogen regardless of delivery method. Do you know where your T levels are?

My T levels are at the lower end of the female range, so they are quite ok I think. I also have the impression that the gel is too weak to really have a significant effect.
Here in the forum there is often a discussion which is probably the most effective delivery method for estrogene. People talk about injections, tablets patches and pellets mostly, but gel seems quite uncommon as nobody refers to it. Is this because it is so inefficient and nobody uses it really?

Quote from: melanie on December 17, 2014, 05:32:32 PM
My T levels are at the lower end of the female range, so they are quite ok I think. I also have the impression that the gel is too weak to really have a significant effect.
Here in the forum there is often a discussion which is probably the most effective delivery method for estrogene. People talk about injections, tablets patches and pellets mostly, but gel seems quite uncommon as nobody refers to it. Is this because it is so inefficient and nobody uses it really?

That's good news on your T levels. So as long as your E is in a normal female range, the rest is up to your body. Some are slow to respond ( like mine ), some are quicker. There's not a great deal any of us can do to speed it up other than staying healthy and keeping hormone levels steady. 

I know a couple of GGs who are post menopause who use the gel to help with the associated symptoms. Comparatively, they don't need much E to relieve those symptoms.

I seem to do really well on higher levels vs lower. Injections have raised my levels quite a bit and I've never felt better. When I was on pills my levels were in the female ranges but I experienced way more "feeling crappy" days on those levels. In fact I didn't realize how badly the pills were affecting me until I started injections. Just goes to show how some of our bodies respond differently and following the "standard" isn't the best for everyone.

Thank you for your feedback! I would really like to try injections again but in the UK they have been banned. I dont know why at all. When I was pre-op and lived in Germany a few years ago I had injections. My balance then was better than it is now. Post op my endocrinlogists always decided to keep the estrogene relatively low, to keep the risks down even if I am still young. From what I know now it was too low around 70-80.  I had issues with hairloss, chronic skin conditions and no libido at all. Sad that I trusted them so long.

But hey... lets see what the tablets sublingually can do now.

Hi Melanie;
I cannot discuss the dosages, but what I can tell you is that my Doctor started me on a low dose of Estrogen only (progynova). At that stage my T levels were 8 (at the bottom end of normal male levels). After 3 months  my doctor doubled my dosage as the initial dose was really doing nothing for me, although my T level had dropped to 5.6. After another 3 months he doubled it again and only then did I start to get any breast development.  By then my overall feeling  of being more feminine improved dramatically and I started to feel as though the dysphoria was slowly lifting. By then my T Level had dropped to 3.9. However about this time I did notice that some of my competitiveness  (and energy had gone)  and I had become less alert and much more emotional. Now after nearly 2 years on low dose Estrogen only, my doctor has increased my Estrogen again and finally I am getting a whole range of improvements and really feel that I am on a full transition levels. My T levels is now 2.4 well with natal female range, and I am now a full B Cup heading to a C Cup, plus I have added about 2 inches on my bottom and hips..

My last E was 300 about 3-4 days after a shot, and T down in low 20's. Before going back on an AA my T was low normal male  doing the same E dose. A year or so before my E was like 600 not long after a shot, 2-3 days if I recall. I read that different labs get different results. Seems a bit much to me.

I also see a lot of very conservative dosing these days by some endo's compared to life in the 70's-80's. They seem to be happy if you're in the 200 range. A few others seem not to care as long as your T is low. But for me one tiny spiro is all it takes, without it it's just low end of normal. Very normal for an old fart like me I think. Oh but what a difference it makes emotionally having it low. Feminization wise I wish I had more, but....

Quote from: melanie on December 17, 2014, 05:32:32 PM
Here in the forum there is often a discussion which is probably the most effective delivery method for estrogene. People talk about injections, tablets patches and pellets mostly, but gel seems quite uncommon as nobody refers to it. Is this because it is so inefficient and nobody uses it really?

Gel typically produces too low a level to have any feminizing effect. It is also very expensive for such a weak product. I tried it first. It failed to produce even half of the blood level my doctor expected. In fact, it was so ineffective that my estradiol level was actually in the lower half of the *male* range! I wish I had known that before spending 2 more months in agony, watching my hair fall out while my E level was actually as low as it was pre-transition. It may reduce the frequency of hot flashes in menopausal women who are often trying to use the lowest possible dose, but we should all avoid it if we want to feminize.

I am glad my new endo put me on pills when I read this. I allways had the feeling that the gel was weak and spent months trying to convince my previous endos to up the dose. The last agreed and allowed me to use more of it but even that dose was far too low. In Germany it seems to be the standard to put girls on gel post op but I dont see the sense of it since all you get are postmenopausal ranges and no physiological development at all. For me it came with the effects of estrogene deficiency that I can finally interpret correctly now. So thanks for sharing your experience when my doctors failed to do so.

I just noticed the other day that my skin isn't quickly becoming dry like it used to. I always blamed the spiro for my dry skin but I've always made sure to drink plenty of water and it would still end up becoming dry after moisturizing a few times. I never stopped to think that it might have been my estrogen levels, now I can moisturize like once a day and be fine.

Hope the pills work for you Melanie and you start feeling better!

My estrogen levels tend to be quite high, the endo is quite happy to see them in the 600s. I'm on an implant. When levels hit about 85 it was time for a new implant.

When I was first put on Spiro I noticed it and do think spiro plays a role in it, but it makes since that my estrogen levels at that point were also playing a bigger role than I realized. I hadn't thought about that tell now, but I haven't had that really dry skin problem in a few weeks now.

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on December 21, 2014, 01:27:38 AM
I just noticed the other day that my skin isn't quickly becoming dry like it used to. I always blamed the spiro for my dry skin but I've always made sure to drink plenty of water and it would still end up becoming dry after moisturizing a few times. I never stopped to think that it might have been my estrogen levels, now I can moisturize like once a day and be fine.

Hope the pills work for you Melanie and you start feeling better!