Quote from: Auroramarianna on December 21, 2014, 05:07:35 PM
That said I think HRT may effect voice but it is minimal and very unlikely for people, even ourselves, to notice. HRT may dry up the vocal cords so they end up vibrating slightly faster resulting in a slightly higher pitch but again it is really minimal. Only practice or surgery can change fundamentally how one sounds and is therefore gendered by the sound of the voice.

That's called ignorance. There is no empirical evidence to validate your claim...NONE, but hey, you are free to believe in make-believe just as much as the next person.

Quote from: Natalie on December 21, 2014, 05:35:45 PM
That's called ignorance. There is no empirical evidence to validate your claim...NONE, but hey, you are free to believe in make-believe just as much as the next person.

...LMAO whateva. Did you actually read my post?

BTW I am sure I read it somewhere, but if info is wrong then please feel free to refute my "claim", I wouldn't have taken offense. Do you really always have to be so rude, oh and allow me to clarify I am NOT on  HRT yet and never said hormones would affect voice, if there is any effect at all, it is minimal.

Quote from: Auroramarianna on December 21, 2014, 05:38:16 PM
...LMAO whateva. Did you actually read my post?

BTW I am sure I read it somewhere, but if info is wrong then please feel free to refute my "claim", I wouldn't have taken offense. Do you really always have to be so rude, oh and allow me to clarify I am NOT on  HRT yet and never said hormones would affect voice, if there is any effect at all, it is minimal.

Yeah I read your post. The part where you claim, "...I think HRT may effect voice..." is erroneous and there is no empirical evidence that validates the claim that HRT will affect the voice in Male to Female transsexuals. None. I am not saying that evidence won't magically appear at some future date that will give your claim validity, but there is currently no evidence to support it and my opinion goes wherever the evidence takes thus, HRT does not affect the voice in Male to Female transsexuals. Trying to credulously shift the burden of proof to me is a classic reasoning defect. It's not my job to give your theoretical position validity. I am also unsure how pointing out misinformation that has no basis in reality is rude. If you want to live in a delusional state that is your business, but trying to get others to believe in your delusions is not okay.

Might I say that MtF HRT may change the voice - if the HRT really brings out  natural femaleness and with it the desire to be seen as female and that will surely drive the person to mimic female tones, expressions, and ways of speaking especially when in groups?

Quote from: Natalie on December 24, 2014, 02:37:13 AM
Yeah I read your post. The part where you claim, "...I think HRT may effect voice..." is erroneous and there is no empirical evidence that validates the claim that HRT will affect the voice in Male to Female transsexuals. None. I am not saying that evidence won't magically appear at some future date that will give your claim validity, but there is currently no evidence to support it and my opinion goes wherever the evidence takes thus, HRT does not affect the voice in Male to Female transsexuals. Trying to credulously shift the burden of proof to me is a classic reasoning defect. It's not my job to give your theoretical position validity. I am also unsure how pointing out misinformation that has no basis in reality is rude. If you want to live in a delusional state that is your business, but trying to get others to believe in your delusions is not okay.

I should imagine that if any evidence did appear then it would not be via magical means. Either way absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Your claim that HRT has no effect on voice without citation is worth no more than her claim without citation, if we want to be all finicky about it. I believe that mainly you are right HRT has little effect on the voice directly. However it can have an effect via indirect means due to changes in body volume around where ones voice emanates. For example my neck is significantly thinner now than pre-HRT. This is likely to have some small effect on voice. FWIW I cite basic laws of physics for this claim vis a vis acoustics. As she said any change from HRT is likely to be minimal and any real change must be affected via voice training or surgery.

Taken as a whole and considering the second half of the area you quoted her claims are not all that outlandish even if the reasoning behind what might cause minor difference in the sound of a voice from HRT are likely to be entirely wrong. It is likely that your claim that HRT has no effect on the voice is equally false and just as requiring of reasoning behind it if not more so (given the absoluteness of the statement) than hers that, she thinks it may have a small effect that people probably wont even notice.

Like I said, everyone is free to live in delusional states. HRT does not change a male to females voice.

References

Adler, R. (2007). Peer Reviewed Article Gender Voice Issues: Voice and Communication Therapy for Transsexual/Transgender Clients. Voice and Speech Review, 5(1), 293-299.

Aloisi, A. M., Bachiocco, V., Costantino, A., Stefani, R., Ceccarelli, I., Bertaccini, A., & Meriggiola, M. C. (2007). Cross-sex hormone administration changes pain in transsexual women and men. Pain, 132, S60-S67.

Coleman, E., Bockting, W., Botzer, M., Cohen-Kettenis, P., DeCuypere, G. R. E. T. A., Feldman, J., ... & Zucker, K. (2012). Standards of care for the health of transsexual, transgender, and gender-nonconforming people, version 7.International Journal of ->-bleeped-<-, 13(4), 165-232.

Dahl, M., Feldman, J. L., Goldberg, J. M., & Jaberi, A. (2006). Physical aspects of transgender endocrine therapy. International Journal of ->-bleeped-<-, 9(3-4), 111-134.

Davies, S., & Goldberg, J. M. (2006). Clinical aspects of transgender speech feminization and masculinization. International Journal of ->-bleeped-<-, 9(3-4), 167-196.

Gammon, K. S. (2007). Changing her tune: how a transsexual woman claims a new identity through voice (Doctoral dissertation, Massachusetts Institute of Technology).

Gorham-Rowan, M., & Morris, R. (2006). Aerodynamic analysis of male-to-female transgender voice. Journal of Voice, 20(2), 251-262.

Firat, Y., Engin-Ustun, Y., Kizilay, A., Ustun, Y., Akarcay, M., Selimoglu, E., & Kafkasli, A. (2009). Effect of intranasal estrogen on vocal quality. Journal of Voice, 23(6), 716-720.

Hershberger, I. G. (2005). The effects of singing exercises and melodic intonation therapy (MIT) on the male-to-female transgender voice (Doctoral dissertation, University of North Carolina at Greensboro).

Israel, G. E. (2001). Transgender care: Recommended guidelines, practical information, and personal accounts. Temple University Press.

Kain, A. B. (2001). High resolution voice transformation (Doctoral dissertation, Oregon Health & Science University).

Martin, K. A. (2007). Transsexualism: Clinical guide to gender identity disorder.Current Psychiatry, 6(2), 81.

McNeill, E. J., Wilson, J. A., Clark, S., & Deakin, J. (2008). Perception of voice in the transgender client. Journal of Voice, 22(6), 727-733.

Moore, E., Wisniewski, A., & Dobs, A. (2003). Endocrine treatment of transsexual people: a review of treatment regimens, outcomes, and adverse effects. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 88(, 3467-3473.

Newman, S. R., Butler, J., Hammond, E. H., & Gray, S. D. (2000). Preliminary report on hormone receptors in the human vocal fold. Journal of voice, 14(1), 72-81.

Oriel, K. A. (2000). Clinical update: Medical care of transsexual patients. Journal of the Gay and Lesbian Medical Association, 4(4), 185-194.

Schirmer, A., Escoffier, N., Li, Q. Y., Li, H., Strafford-Wilson, J., & Li, W. I. (2008). What grabs his attention but not hers? Estrogen correlates with neurophysiological measures of vocal change detection.Psychoneuroendocrinology, 33(6), 718-727.

Yeah I noticed a change but it's not so direct, like my voice really wanted to go up n my low voice had became very uncomfortable, tho I've never really had a deep voice but it felt like my voice started to break, so does voice change with HRT? I would say yes n no because it does n did need some practice to get it higher, so I'm shore HRT helps but I would think it's probably much easier for the voice to go down then it is for it to go up for transsexuals, like I keep hearing FTM voices change much easier then MTF.

But we all know results differ from person to person

Nice list of random information. Shame none of it will disprove the possibility of minute practically impossible to notice changes in tone caused by slight variations in size and material quality of the areas of resonance of the human voice brought about by HRT. AKA The theory posited by myself. Clearly such a theory though is of course delusional despite it having a clear scientific basis. Though if it makes you feel good to accuse people of being delusional with no real basis for doing so then feel free

  random information 

Let's not forget that polling n consensus is also a science, like there's lots of unexplained things that lack scientific evidence, these things usually fall into the category of theoretical science, where there is an attempt to prove the theory and disprove the theory with little to no evidence (arguing the facts). But truly at the end of the day what is, is n cannot be told it is not, n I say in this topic it is possible out my knowledge of experience, the best science there is and good luck proving me wrong n trying to tell me what it theoretically really is when it doesn't support my findings, because I know better so    lol. 

Quote from: Natalie on December 24, 2014, 05:00:55 PM
Like I said, everyone is free to live in delusional states. HRT does not change a male to females voice.

Dear Natalie,

Please chill out! Just take a few deep breaths and calm down.

I think you're a bit loose with the word "delusional".

"HRT cured my cancer and gave me the power to fly. I just did a few laps around the equator this morning!" = delusion

"HRT might make your voice ever so slightly more feminine." =/= delusion

Quote from: Seras on December 24, 2014, 05:39:55 PM
Though if it makes you feel good to accuse people of being delusional with no real basis for doing so then feel free

^^this. I agree pretty much with all your points, Seras. Thanks for putting into words the thoughts I struggled to express.

To Natalie, you are actually committing the Argumentum ad ignorantiam logical falacy. Lack of proof for the existence of life outside earth does not prove the unexistence of life outside the earth. Merely no proof in favor or against it has been found yet.

Clearly if there are changes they are small, making it hard to prove, and so far I have never read that voice does ABSOLUTELY not change on HRT like you claim. All I have read is that pitch does not appear to increase. However, pitch isn't the only determinant of voice. There are many more variables that may have not been fully studied.

Quote from: Natalie on December 24, 2014, 05:00:55 PM
Like I said, everyone is free to live in delusional states. HRT does not change a male to females voice.

References

Adler, R. (2007). Peer Reviewed Article Gender Voice Issues: Voice and Communication Therapy for Transsexual/Transgender Clients. Voice and Speech Review, 5(1), 293-299.

Aloisi, A. M., Bachiocco, V., Costantino, A., Stefani, R., Ceccarelli, I., Bertaccini, A., & Meriggiola, M. C. (2007). Cross-sex hormone administration changes pain in transsexual women and men. Pain, 132, S60-S67.

Coleman, E., Bockting, W., Botzer, M., Cohen-Kettenis, P., DeCuypere, G. R. E. T. A., Feldman, J., ... & Zucker, K. (2012). Standards of care for the health of transsexual, transgender, and gender-nonconforming people, version 7.International Journal of ->-bleeped-<-, 13(4), 165-232.

Dahl, M., Feldman, J. L., Goldberg, J. M., & Jaberi, A. (2006). Physical aspects of transgender endocrine therapy. International Journal of ->-bleeped-<-, 9(3-4), 111-134.

Davies, S., & Goldberg, J. M. (2006). Clinical aspects of transgender speech feminization and masculinization. International Journal of ->-bleeped-<-, 9(3-4), 167-196.

Gammon, K. S. (2007). Changing her tune: how a transsexual woman claims a new identity through voice (Doctoral dissertation, Massachusetts Institute of Technology).

Gorham-Rowan, M., & Morris, R. (2006). Aerodynamic analysis of male-to-female transgender voice. Journal of Voice, 20(2), 251-262.

Firat, Y., Engin-Ustun, Y., Kizilay, A., Ustun, Y., Akarcay, M., Selimoglu, E., & Kafkasli, A. (2009). Effect of intranasal estrogen on vocal quality. Journal of Voice, 23(6), 716-720.

Hershberger, I. G. (2005). The effects of singing exercises and melodic intonation therapy (MIT) on the male-to-female transgender voice (Doctoral dissertation, University of North Carolina at Greensboro).

Israel, G. E. (2001). Transgender care: Recommended guidelines, practical information, and personal accounts. Temple University Press.

Kain, A. B. (2001). High resolution voice transformation (Doctoral dissertation, Oregon Health & Science University).

Martin, K. A. (2007). Transsexualism: Clinical guide to gender identity disorder.Current Psychiatry, 6(2), 81.

McNeill, E. J., Wilson, J. A., Clark, S., & Deakin, J. (2008). Perception of voice in the transgender client. Journal of Voice, 22(6), 727-733.

Moore, E., Wisniewski, A., & Dobs, A. (2003). Endocrine treatment of transsexual people: a review of treatment regimens, outcomes, and adverse effects. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 88(, 3467-3473.

Newman, S. R., Butler, J., Hammond, E. H., & Gray, S. D. (2000). Preliminary report on hormone receptors in the human vocal fold. Journal of voice, 14(1), 72-81.

Oriel, K. A. (2000). Clinical update: Medical care of transsexual patients. Journal of the Gay and Lesbian Medical Association, 4(4), 185-194.

Schirmer, A., Escoffier, N., Li, Q. Y., Li, H., Strafford-Wilson, J., & Li, W. I. (2008). What grabs his attention but not hers? Estrogen correlates with neurophysiological measures of vocal change detection.Psychoneuroendocrinology, 33(6), 718-727.

thank you for calling bull on this pseudo scientific , placebo sugar pill topic.

HRT has not any scientific evidence to change voice.

You must either train for it, or go for surgery.

And I shall raise my voice.

Discussion is fine, nit picking argument is not.

If you don't agree with something, say so and move on.

Just be aware; I'm not particularly full of Christmas cheer.

Any silly arguments will be dealt with.

Quote from: Seras on December 24, 2014, 05:39:55 PM
Nice list of random information. Shame none of it will disprove the possibility of minute practically impossible to notice changes in tone caused by slight variations in size and material quality of the areas of resonance of the human voice brought about by HRT. AKA The theory posited by myself. Clearly such a theory though is of course delusional despite it having a clear scientific basis. Though if it makes you feel good to accuse people of being delusional with no real basis for doing so then feel free

Oh it's not "random information" and every single one of those studies address the HRT voice issue and they all say the same thing - HRT has no effect on a male to females voice. Like I said, my opinion goes wherever the evidence takes it. Thinking otherwise is what I call "magical thinking (e.g. omitted variable bias)." You are, however, free to keep a delusional belief, but misleading those less learned than oneself is nothing short of mendacious. Fact is, there is no empirical evidence to refute my position and decades of research that shows yours has no basis in reality. All I see is the dissonance emerging due to empirical reality conflicting with one's internalized belief thus, you do whatever you need to in order to validate your own erroneous perception by engaging in reasoning defects...

Icannot stand it when people spread outright lies to our social minority due to their own self-induced ignorance on the subject matter. I have to understand that not everyone is in my lexicon and there are a lot of people that don't know any better, but I won't sit back while people spread potentially harmful information to transgender people especially those just starting out and questioning everyone about who they are. Take that however you will.

Topic locked