This thread is meant for those who are transsexual, and are either in transition, transition is the next step, have surgery scheduled or are post-op.

There is much controversy on what makes us TS.  It's sort of the chicken and the egg routine.  Do we have a psychological condition, or is it a physical condition.  There are those psychiatrists/psychologists who would like to see transsexualism de-listed from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV).  I strongly agree with this as I don't consider myself to be "Disordered", I feel quite normal.

The crux of the matter basically comes down to... I have male chromosomes, but a female brain, some would say mind.

So to the other transsexuals - What's your feelings on this?

Steph

Steph,

I never considered myself have a mental condition, or to that matter a physical condition. I dont consider myself to be "cured" because I never considered myself to be "ill" in the first place.

I totally agree that Transsexualism should be de-classified as a mental illness and be removed from the DSM-IV.

As to what it is? .... well in IMHO its just a classification used medically to distinguish a group of people who have a  dissconnect between their mental and physical gender and Society in general understands things by giving them labels and putting them into classifications.

As to what causes it?....Physical, environmental, developmental factors all surely play apart, but the acceptance that it exists is key and availabilty of better treatment and a harmonized set of standards and care the answer.

Rebecca

Quote from: ell on October 23, 2007, 09:21:48 AM
yeah, you feel normal, now that you've had your genitals surgically removed and you've given yourself permission, full time to act like a girl.

But TSs don't "act like girls." They *are* girls. Hence it feeling normal. IMHO and all that

Quotethere's just no way society is ever going to accept that as normal, in our lifetimes. far, far into the future: certainly. but not now.

Well heck, society will never agree 100% on what's "normal." Every group thinks the other groups are weird, and I don't just mean GLBT stuff. Religions, careers, philosophies... everyone is weird to SOMEONE. So to be considered weird is... well... NORMAL, lol.

Is it a "disorder" or "mental illness" though? No, I don't believe so. I have my quirks for sure, but I'm no more nuts that the rest of the population. Well OK, maybe a LITTLE, but I digress. Like I always say, 1/2 the population feels appropriate living as females, and no one thinks THEY'RE nuts. Yea OK, so they lucked out and were born with chomosomes which made it easy to do. That still doesn't mean I'm nuts just because my route to femaleness is a bit less travelled.

The catch is we need a medical diagnosis to get medical treatments. And only psychs can do that, since no one can diagnose TSism via physical symptoms and tests. Soooo... ya gotta call it SOMETHING. Not a disorder, but maybe a condition?

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on October 23, 2007, 10:18:54 AM

But TSs don't "act like girls." They *are* girls. Hence it feeling normal. IMHO and all that

Got it in one Kate... Many don't understand this.

and ell, you don't have to worry about offending me, nothing of what you wrote was the least offensive.

Steph

It seems a false distinction, between psychological and physical, mind and brain. I came across a line of commentary in a Zen dialogue, "when you drink water, it always hits your throat." Everything is manifested in our biology. It seems a matter of perspective. That having been said, there are some invested in seeing it one way or another. I guess that's their business. Every perspective has it's uses.
Re getting de-listed from the DSM.. don't hold your breath.. doubt it will happen this time around. Most psychiatrists still seem to regard GID as pretty crazy.
My 2C
Tara

I've had various intersexed tests done last year and it's clear I am IS. This would mean it's not a psychological condition but a physical one. I also think if you dig deep enough many other people may have physical intersexed traits which can be monitered or tested.

Quote from: Berliegh on October 23, 2007, 12:42:20 PM
I've had various intersexed tests done last year and it's clear I am IS. This would mean it's not a psychological condition but a physical one.

Technically, if I remember my reading, if you're intersexed, then you're actually NOT transsexual. I believe the two terms are mutually exclusive.

Otherwise, no physical "causes" of transsexuality have ever been found. There have been hints and clues and teases, but nothing official. It remains a mystery, which is kinda cool with me

~Kate~

I don't think there is such a thing as "Normal". We are all different and think differently. So if you want to say something like that maybe average would be a better term.

In some ways I would like to see it out of the DSM book, but only if you were able to get your meds without it being in there. True, I don't feel ill nor do I feel crazy (well?) but, like my therapist told me on my last visit with her, "Your just a normal woman". Maybe she should have said average woman. I have always, even in my most male position, have felt female. I don't think there was a minute in my life that I didn't think that I wasn't a female. I was always trying to be a male. It didn't work. I went crazy.

 I really think it has to do with our brains and I would think that it is physical. I really believe that a transexual and an intersexed person are the same. No, we didn't have the outside features of the opposite gender, but in the brain we did. Being intersexed was something that was on the outside of your body, something that doctors can see. I really think that if they had a way of probing the brain, they would be able to see that we have female genitalia and in the case of FtoM they had male genitalia in their brains. Our brain runs the show, we are what the brain says we are. For most of us, we have known who we are since we were very little before we even knew a difference. We probably knew when we were in the womb, but who remembers back that far. I believe it is innate and not learning. This has had to have happened while in the womb or during conception. I will never know and I don't care to know. I know that when I came out of the operating room and woke up, I felt whole and right for the first time in all of my life. I felt a great relief. No, the hormones never did that for me, only to make me feel that I'm on the right track, even when I got rid of my testosterone via orchi. did I feel complete. It was making a vagina and feeling right with the world did I feel whole.

So I would have to say it is all physical with in the brain.
Sheila

What?  We just have different physical needs than your standard, fresh-off-the-assembly-line human.  We're a little more high maintenance.  We need something extra in order to survive.  I really don't see what the big issue is, here.  We're not normal, physically, and that results in psychological issues that can be remedied by correcting the physical ailment.  Am I ringing any bells here?  How is it any different from some other physical disfigurement?  Depending on how socially debilitating it is (ours is arguably one of the worst in that regard), you suffer pretty severe mental repurcussions until you get things ironed out.

But hey, at least we don't have to drink blood (although that would be pretty sexy.)

~ BB

Quote from: Steph on October 23, 2007, 06:39:52 AM
The crux of the matter basically comes down to... I have male chromosomes, but a female brain, some would say mind.

There are any number of chromosomes and environmental factors that determine how your 23rd pair gets expressed, whether you are XX or XY.  All that really matters, when push comes to shove, is prenatal hormones.  So forget worrying about male chromosomes.

There is another distinction here.  "Psychological" and "instinctual" are two different things.  The fact that an infant at 18 months responds to male and female faces differently is instinctual.  So is the fact that at 2 yrs they know whether they are male or female.  How you subjectively experience that instinct is psychological.

Final point.  Read my signature line below:

Gee I hate threads like this.

How can it not be psychological? I have depression (mental illness) when at the same type I was physically in great shape. I tries to get rid of the female inside of me so I could get on with my life - but we all know that never works. Here I am a (once) healthy male thinking about transistion cause my dam brain does not accept I am male despite all my physical attributes.

I know futher along the line I may consider this a bleasing - but for now it is all in my mind and such a waste of energy.

Alice

Posted on: October 24, 2007, 08:14:32 AM

---

I was just thinking on my way to work since writing the previous post how much I hate my situation. Derpession stole the best life I could of hoped for - being fit and healthly and out riding with my friends. There was always another challenge to do.

Now the best I can hope for is being accepted as a bald women with male genitia.


Why could I not choose where I wanted to go. Where is the choice in this if it is not psychological? Where is our self determination here to choose what is important in our lives and going forward knowing we have looked at out paths and decided what is our best interested.

I used to be someone. Now I am psychological dammaged because I wanted a choice and paid a high price for not relising that there is no choice.

I may be pushed into transistion - but in know way was I going to do this by choice. I had the life I wanted and this TSism stuffed it up. It is all Psychological preasure and nothing else.

 

[/end rant]

Alice

Well, according to what I have read recently, transsexualism seems to be a neurological/congenital and not a psychiatric condition.  IMO transsexualism is not a mental illness in itself, but it can cause mental illness (i.e, depression, bipolar disorder, OCD, etc).  I think it is also important to note that not a single transsexual person has ever been "cured" (if you will) or even successfully treated by mental health professionals in the last century or so since the science of psychiatry has been recognized my the medical profession.  Funny, isn't it?

So, no it is not a psychiatric condition as I myself thought not too long ago (Amy T will tell you  ); I am just a female who happened to have been born with a set of chromosomes and genitals which didn't match my brain. 

Here's the link from The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism


http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034

Quote from: Kate on October 23, 2007, 10:18:54 AM

But TSs don't "act like girls." They *are* girls. Hence it feeling normal. IMHO and all that

You are so right, Kate   Alas:

Quote from: Tink on March 17, 2007, 11:03:56 AM
I was always punished for "acting" like a girl.  I never felt like I "acted" though; that was simply how I was, but I guess it wasn't appropriate for a "boy" to act that way.  I remember my mom "teaching" me how to sit, walk, stand, talk, carry my books. It always seemed that I did nothing right, and I felt so alone......

tink

tink

Thanks for the link to the reasearch Tink. It does make sense and I was very angry this morning. I sent the link onto my parents in an effort to help them understand.

Alice

Tink,
Isn't that what I said? Maybe I didn't use the right words? Well, anyway, in my opinion it isn't mental but physical, but only physical in the brain. Like a tumour but not a bad tumor. Who knows why this happens it just does. Isn't intersexed people have physical differences and they also have the brain thing going on.
Sheila

Quote from: Sheila on October 23, 2007, 09:00:25 PM
Tink,
Isn't that what I said? Maybe I didn't use the right words? Well, anyway, in my opinion it isn't mental but physical, but only physical in the brain. Like a tumour but not a bad tumor. Who knows why this happens it just does. Isn't intersexed people have physical differences and they also have the brain thing going on.
Sheila

Yes Sheila, it would seem that this is becoming a very common belief among us now.  IMO this entire idea doesn't sound so odd really.  If I recall correctly, there are several threads on this site where members provided excellent links to these studies.  I just don't seem to find things when I want to, but they are here, somewhere...

tink

Quote from: Kate on October 23, 2007, 12:57:52 PM

Quote from: Berliegh on October 23, 2007, 12:42:20 PM
I've had various intersexed tests done last year and it's clear I am IS. This would mean it's not a psychological condition but a physical one.

Technically, if I remember my reading, if you're intersexed, then you're actually NOT transsexual. I believe the two terms are mutually exclusive.

Otherwise, no physical "causes" of transsexuality have ever been found. There have been hints and clues and teases, but nothing official. It remains a mystery, which is kinda cool with me

~Kate~

OK, I'm not transsexual.......so what am I?

Quote from: Berliegh on October 24, 2007, 05:37:30 AM

Quote from: Kate on October 23, 2007, 12:57:52 PM

Quote from: Berliegh on October 23, 2007, 12:42:20 PM
I've had various intersexed tests done last year and it's clear I am IS. This would mean it's not a psychological condition but a physical one.

Technically, if I remember my reading, if you're intersexed, then you're actually NOT transsexual. I believe the two terms are mutually exclusive.

Otherwise, no physical "causes" of transsexuality have ever been found. There have been hints and clues and teases, but nothing official. It remains a mystery, which is kinda cool with me

~Kate~

OK, I'm not transsexual.......so what am I?

Kinda left yourself open there Berliegh

However definition time...  From our Wiki:

Intersexed

An intersexual or intersex person (or animal of any unisexual species) is one who is born with genitalia and/or secondary sexual characteristics determined as neither exclusively male nor female, or which combine features of the male and female sexes. (The terms hermaphrodite and pseudo-hermaphrodite, which have been used in the past, are now considered pejorative and inaccurate and are no longer used to refer to an intersexual person.) Sometimes the phrase "ambiguous genitalia" is used.

The remainder of the article can be found here:

https://www.susans.org/wiki/Intersexed

Don't cha love definitions

Steph

Quote from: Steph on October 24, 2007, 05:56:49 AM

Quote from: Berliegh on October 24, 2007, 05:37:30 AM

Quote from: Kate on October 23, 2007, 12:57:52 PM

Quote from: Berliegh on October 23, 2007, 12:42:20 PM
I've had various intersexed tests done last year and it's clear I am IS. This would mean it's not a psychological condition but a physical one.

Technically, if I remember my reading, if you're intersexed, then you're actually NOT transsexual. I believe the two terms are mutually exclusive.

Otherwise, no physical "causes" of transsexuality have ever been found. There have been hints and clues and teases, but nothing official. It remains a mystery, which is kinda cool with me

~Kate~

OK, I'm not transsexual.......so what am I?

Kinda left yourself open there Berliegh

However definition time...  From our Wiki:

Intersexed

An intersexual or intersex person (or animal of any unisexual species) is one who is born with genitalia and/or secondary sexual characteristics determined as neither exclusively male nor female, or which combine features of the male and female sexes. (The terms hermaphrodite and pseudo-hermaphrodite, which have been used in the past, are now considered pejorative and inaccurate and are no longer used to refer to an intersexual person.) Sometimes the phrase "ambiguous genitalia" is used.

The remainder of the article can be found here:

https://www.susans.org/wiki/Intersexed

Don't cha love definitions

Steph

That's a very narrow definition........IS conditions do not always reflect genitalia. I have the male genitalia but have female chromosones and bone density structure. There are many IS conditions other than hermaphrodites...

Quote from: BerleighThat's a very narrow definition........IS conditions do not always reflect genitalia. I have the male genitalia but have female chromosones and bone density structure. There are many IS conditions other than hermaphrodites...

The article doesn't state that IS are hermaphrodites in fact it states that the term is no longer used.  Additionally the article does say:

Quote...one who is born with genitalia and/or secondary sexual characteristics determined as neither exclusively male nor female, or which combine features of the male and female sexes.

The complete article can be found here and it is quite extensive:

https://www.susans.org/wiki/Intersexed

Steph

I find it amazing while I'm on HRT, (estrogen, progesterone, spiro etc) I feel totally normal. Before HRT, I had a daily thing of feeling something was wrong and I spent my time running in circles trying many many things to fix it. There was a 24x7 soundtrack playing in my head bugging me to do something. It got so bad I wanted to blow my head off just to get rid of that nagging. That physcial need for estrogen introduction into my system and the reducing of testosterone drove my mentality into a frenzy to take action. Once I got those needs of increased estrogen and the drop  testosterone, those mental conditions went away.

I say this problem for me is a physical one that causes several mental ones. Once I took care of that physical need by getting on the right "fuel", the mental issues went away. On the flip side, getting on the right fuel does cause other mental problems for me and those would be my need to change and look more congruent as a female has tripled. Now I am anxious for those changes to happen faster and I'm sad and depressed things are not doing so. I have in a sense, created more mental issues. Other mental issues are the fear of coming out, fear of people noticing the changes, and so on and so forth. The orginal mental problem is now gone because physically my body feels right bathing in the new chemicals, but I am mentally depressed because the changes are so slow and fearful of the future.

I cannot speak for everybody but I would have to say that being TS is a physical thing that causes a LOT of mental problems, for me that is.