Quote from: rachel89 on December 25, 2014, 12:42:41 AM
Why is it that we are in the 21st century and we are are having to fight for the right to use a totally gross public restroom that simply corresponds with our gender.

Because we, as a community, have been sleeping on the job of educating the public who we are, why we transition, and why we need to use the restroom that matches our presentation.

I find that once I explain that someone living as a female has no place else to go, and that passability is a poor criterion for deciding who should be allowed to go where, most people understand quickly.

But when I've brought up the idea here that we should educate people about our restroom needs, I've been greeted by a chorus of posts of how it will bring out the haters and will do more harm than good.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 25, 2014, 06:10:01 AM
But when I've brought up the idea here that we should educate people about our restroom needs, I've been greeted by a chorus of posts of how it will bring out the haters and will do more harm than good.

I'm with you about this, Suzi.  The issues we run into are all about people sing fearful of bathrooms.  So we need to stop being afraid of the bathroom "issue" and start taking it on head on. 

The county I live in has a gender identity non-discrimination ordinance.  It also has a policy for its parks and recreation department that says the County "assigns use of the restrooms and locker rooms in its recreational facilities strictly on the basis of anatomical gender rather than on the basis of adopted gender."  I'm told the County consulted with HRC for advice on how to create a non-discriminatory policy and ended up with that.

I don't see how to fight a policy like that without talking about bathrooms and locker rooms.  So I put together a PowerPoint to show the Human Rights Commission that specifically addresses the issue.  And I actually did put in a photo of Buck Angel with a note saying "this is someone who is required to use the women's locker rooms and bathrooms under County policy."

Naturally I got roundly criticized by the state's LGBT advocacy organization for doing it.  But it's working so far.  And people don't grasp the issue when you just tell them about it instead of showing them.  And I don't know how to deal with a discriminatory bathroom policy without talking about bathrooms.

There are times when talking about bathrooms is wrong.  Like when lobbying for an anti-discrimination bill, for example.  Focusing on bathrooms means that the focus is on a little, tiny issue that obscures the larger issues of being able to use a restaurant, movie theater, etc.  But eventually you do have to get specific and talk about the issue itself.

Quote from: sneakersjay on June 14, 2014, 08:04:19 AM
And maybe what will have legislators change their minds about these stupid bathroom bills is a couple of busloads of us descending on them and having us use the restrooms en mass  according to our 'birth gender' and have them really see how ridiculous it is.  From the Buck Angel types to the funky bois in the ladies room, and Laverne Cox beauties and regular gals in the men's room.  Might be educational.

That would really show them what this is all about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

frankly im surprised the rate isn't HIGHER then it is.

No matter what reason you might have, there is really no real need for separate restrooms as long as you have private stalls and no open urinals. Multi user unisex restrooms would be best for all.

I don't get why so many people oppose it in the first place...most people just go there to do their business, and there's pretty much nothing that you can do in a bathroom (for example, violence can happen in a bathroom, but it can also happen outside of one) that you cant do anywhere else (well, except use the bathroom, but that's a moot point  ) I think that needs to be illustrated to people who think that men are suddenly going to start going crazy in ladies restrooms, and start doing inappropriate things, and that women will be at risk.

Quote from: Deltaforce on December 31, 2014, 02:20:05 PM
I don't get why so many people oppose it in the first place...most people just go there to do their business, and there's pretty much nothing that you can do in a bathroom (for example, violence can happen in a bathroom, but it can also happen outside of one) that you cant do anywhere else (well, except use the bathroom, but that's a moot point  ) I think that needs to be illustrated to people who think that men are suddenly going to start going crazy in ladies restrooms, and start doing inappropriate things, and that women will be at risk.

It will be easier for a pervert to attack a woman in a strictly woman's restroom as the likelyhood of her being alone and defenseless will be greater.

The way I dress, I am expected to use the ladies' room to go to the bathroom and I would feel weird if I didn't.   I just go in and find the nearest empty stall, do my business, wash up, and leave.  Which is what all the other females in the rest room seem to be doing.   No one questions my existence there, even though sometimes I pass and sometimes I don't.   The other ladies in my family call me Michael instead of Michelle, even it the restroom, and use male pronouns.   However, if we all are address as ladies or with a collective female noun or pronoun, they don't correct the person addressing us.  But, I have decided that I am a lady, and will dress as one the rest of my life, no matter what anyone else thinks, and if this is all everyone else sees I will be accepted as effeminate.   It helps being 68-year-old lady with long grey thinning hair.    If people disapprove they keep it to themselves.  We don't have a car so I ride public transportation or walk where ever I go.  Most of time with the others in my family and sometimes by myself.   When I do correct people in the pharmacy or at the clinic, they seem very nice about it and address me in female gender.  I have inadvertently flirted in public on the bus and at bus stops with men who seem to see me only as a woman.   Most of my flirting is intellectual and not of a sexual nature.   

So while it seems that people when asked people oppose trans using the preferred bathroom. in practice, most people wishing to avoid a scene will let go when it is actually happening, unless something forces the issue.   While I try and use the family rooms whenever possible or one seaters and go in alone,  lately I have had to use larger ladies' restrooms with women of all ages.    We got free tickets to a college bowl game and I took my son and his older sister's boyfriend.  They expect me to use the ladies room, because I always do.   I also was called into jury duty and used the ladies's restroom in the courthouse.   It may just be that I am a senior citizen, I don't know.   Or this is just a case of when asked most people give the traditional reply of men go in the men's room and ladies go in the ladies' room and that's it.   However, in practice if someone who is not obviously the wrong gender uses the restroom, most people will not question it, and go on with their daily lives.   Something has to happen for someone to question your gender.   

Don't expect to many legislators especially in legislatures controlled by the conservatives to pass any bills to allow transgenders to use their preferred gender bathroom because they will be accused of turning men loose in the women's restrooms and dressing rooms.    Too many people do not get the point that transsexual and transgender women are women and not men.    Most people who see all people who were born with male bodies are just men who like to pretend or present themselves as women while considering their gender to be male.   These men presenting themselves as women are going to invade women's spaces.   I try to keep pointing out that transgender and transsexual women are women and do not think of themselves as men, and really don't want anybody else to consider them men.   We are ladies, bitches, dykes, aunties, grandmothers, mothers, and full fill many social roles that other women do.   We can't get pregnant or give birth to children., but we can provide the genetic material and mother our children ever day for the rest of their lives.   What we need to do is accept that except for physical problems we need to incorporate these roles into our lives.  Then when we go into the ladies room all others will see is another woman doing the things other women do.

So, just to set this all up, I'm still in the closet about my gender identity.  I'm still living as a man, and yet, all my life, even as the supposed cis-gender male everyone thinks I am, I still had to worry about bathroom harassment.  From as early as grade school, I was constantly abused and harassed in bathrooms, simply because I chose to use a stall.  I did so for various reasons.  One, because I was uncomfortable using a urinal and constantly noticing that the other boys were trying to look at my penis.  Like, not in a sexual way, I think (it was grade school, after all), but it just felt weird.  Two, I was very self-conscious about my penis because I was born with hypospadias, which is basically when your urethra is underneath the shaft, instead of on the tip.  I had it surgically repaired as a kid, but unfortunately, every few years, my urethra will close up, and I have to get it reopened, which means I've had repeated surgeries on my genitals.  This leads to the third reason I'd go in the stalls - all that work done makes it difficult and uncomfortable to go standing up, and even harder to control the direction of the stream.  It basically means that I have to go sitting down, even with male genitalia.  Needless to say, "boys will be boys" and they'd be constantly jumping the stalls, kicking in the doors, and doing everything they could to harass me, simply because I went "like a girl".  I'd constantly go to teachers and any higher up that'd listen, just for them all to react the same way - complete indifference.  "Oh well, boys will be boys".  I can look back on all of that now and call it exactly what it was - sexual harassment.  But I'll likely still get those indifferent shrugs.

The thing is, I, even now, even living in the closet as a supposed "cis-gender male", public bathrooms are a nightmare for me.  For the most part, adults are less intrusive, so I don't have to worry about doors getting kicked in on me, so much, now.  Except when it still happens, anyway.  A few years ago, at this bar I hang at, where I generally felt safe, some drunk jerk kicked in the stall door as I was going, because he was offended at the fact that someone was going #2, in his mind.  As if it was any of his business what I was doing, or he had any right to do it, but everything just flooded.  All those years of harassment in school, to the point where I scheduled my entire day around when to go to the bathroom and where so I could either be alone, or left alone, all that anger, fear, frustration flooded, and I just went into shock.  Fortunately, the drunk was just drunk and walked off after, and I was just there in a frozen panic, pushing the door back closed and screaming every obscenity I could think of before I could finally collect myself enough to get out.  Worse yet, I coulnd't even begin to try to explain to my friends what was wrong once I came out, when they all aksed me what happened and if I was all right.  I wasn't anywhere near close, and I tried so much to explain what was wrong, but there's just so much to it.  How do you explain to people that you're afraid to go to the bathroom because you spent the first half of your life being taught that everyone else felt entitled to your body in some strange way, and that no one ever bothers to stand up for you when people cross the line.  No one cares.  You're just "overly sensitive" they say.  Some pretend to understand but don't care.  Others roll their eyes.  And all I want is to be left alone. 

One of my biggest fears about pursuing a path towards transition is that, after I trans, is this bathroom issue only going to get WORSE?!  I can't even be left alone as a supposed cis-gender "male" in a men's room.  How am I ever going to be able to survive as a transgender MTF trying to use a ladies' room?  Or, worse yet, if these asinine laws get passed, and I'm forced into the men's room as a trans MTF?  Do I have to look forward to having doors kicked in on my on a regular basis for the rest of my adult life?  I thought I was past all of that.  Hell, that was what I was screaming in between F and S words in that stall the night that drunk kicked that door in on me.  Didn't we outgrow this stuff decades ago?

No, apparently we didn't.  And that terrifies me.

My city's progressive with trans issues. By law, all new buildings have to have only gender-neutral bathrooms. And for any buildings with gendered bathrooms, you're allowed to use whichever one you identify closest with.

One time, and only one time, I was accosted by a dumb transit employee who tried to tell me I was in the wrong bathroom. But this is was in my earlier transition days, only on hormones for a few months, and still using an electric razor and no makeup. After arguing with the bigot of an employee, I finally yelled, "I'm not a man!" That settled that.

This thread reminds me how dangerous it is for people to consider that a popular vote or poll should factor in determining our basic human rights of self identity and safety.   We transgender people are unlikely to win any popularity polls soon and who is next on the prejudice and discrimination list for bigots to target?  I clearly see transgender people being targeted by the far right nuts as lesbian and gay people become more comfortably assimilated.  Some will cynically need a group or individual to demonize and provide a them vs. us mentality, raise $ and polarize people who will not use reason, compassion and critical thinking.

Laws and unisex stalls are needed but will not change hardened hearts while education is a long slow answer.  I live in the US where we had signs, in my childhood, that said things like "Whites Only."  The laws have changed but racism remains too common.  No compromise in defense of our basic rights and safety is acceptable.  We get the chance to vote with our feet every time we need to 'go' in public places.  Please vote responsibly and as well informed citizens.

I like being around men anyways

Quote from: Monika1223 on February 01, 2015, 07:19:40 PM
I like being around men anyways

I don't think anybody likes being around men in the context of a public restroom.  Not even other men.  Except for the creepy ones... they seem to like looking at my junk.

I swear the next time that happens, I'm just gonna turn to face them and water their shoes. 

I couldn't imagine putting up with the nastiness that is the men's room after I transition.  I feel rapey vibes coming off of men's room occupants even when I'm sporting a beard and dirty clothes.  But... with womanly wobbly bits and a clean moisturized face?  Nuh-uh.  Not gonna happen.  I'd rather hold my bladder.

Don't like half of Americans also believe in angels? The U.S. isn't exactly a bastion of rationality. We also have a certain paranoia about stranger violence that dates back at least to the 80s.

Quote from: Tessa James on February 01, 2015, 02:22:05 PM
This thread reminds me how dangerous it is for people to consider that a popular vote or poll should factor in determining our basic human rights of self identity and safety.   We transgender people are unlikely to win any popularity polls soon and who is next on the prejudice and discrimination list for bigots to target?  I clearly see transgender people being targeted by the far right nuts as lesbian and gay people become more comfortably assimilated.  Some will cynically need a group or individual to demonize and provide a them vs. us mentality, raise $ and polarize people who will not use reason, compassion and critical thinking.Laws and unisex stalls are needed but will not change hardened hearts while education is a long slow answer. 

Unfortunately, there are many people who do still feel like civil rights should be contingent on the outcome of a vote. We see that whenever a political body acts on these issues. That is we need strong national laws that clearly define our rights. Unfortunately, that is unlikely to happen any time soon in the USA where the right wing seems to be growing its influence again.

QuoteWe get the chance to vote with our feet every time we need to 'go' in public places.  Please vote responsibly and as well informed citizens.

That is easier said than done. I just used the women's restroom for the first time last month, and the mere thought of being 'outed' was terrifying. I can see myself as female everywhere else, but I stepped in there and it felt so wrong. I did not even wash my hands at the large and dirty facility. It was off-hours (but not empty) and I do not think I have the courage to walk in there when it is crowded. Then again, I get 'outed' every time in the men's room too, and men are more dangerous with all that testosterone, right? Old habits die hard. I would rather hold it even if that means leaking.

Quote from: Steph34 on February 03, 2015, 12:17:51 PM
Unfortunately, there are many people who do still feel like civil rights should be contingent on the outcome of a vote. We see that whenever a political body acts on these issues. That is we need strong national laws that clearly define our rights. Unfortunately, that is unlikely to happen any time soon in the USA where the right wing seems to be growing its influence again.

That is easier said than done. I just used the women's restroom for the first time last month, and the mere thought of being 'outed' was terrifying. I can see myself as female everywhere else, but I stepped in there and it felt so wrong. I did not even wash my hands at the large and dirty facility. It was off-hours (but not empty) and I do not think I have the courage to walk in there when it is crowded. Then again, I get 'outed' every time in the men's room too, and men are more dangerous with all that testosterone, right? Old habits die hard. I would rather hold it even if that means leaking.

That is probably a common first time experience Steph.   i clearly recall literally running in and out of there which may have caused more attention;-).  It gets better and you will hopefully gain confidence with practice.  It is unfortunately not uncommon for some of us to 'hold it" to the point of distress and even injury.  Discrimination can harm us in many ways and i think you are correct about the greater potential for danger for girls in the mens room.

This country is changing and we are making progress.  There are grade school kids who, with their parents help, have successfully challenged exclusionary school bathroom rules.  There is another post here about a right wing politician exploiting fears and suggesting a bounty for catching us in the 'wrong' place.  Transgender people are gaining the spotlight like never before and the reactive nuts will respond.  They are most likely to fade into that dust bin of history as another crackpot and hater.  I just intend to go when and where I need to with dignity.

I really think we need to be clear about the how, when, and who of the interrogation process that led to these disgusting results - it's kind of pointless to get all worked up over something like this when differences in the questioning method would likely yield drastically different outcomes.

let us look at the positive side 41% dont agree that we should use the bathroom assigned to our birth gender, I am sure it would have much lower about 10 years back and soon majority will be for using the genderbathroom as per their dress, or there will only gender neutral bathrooms everywhere

Hopefully multi-user gender neutral restrooms will become the accepted standard soon.  I was in large chain store the other day and had to use the restroom.  There was only stall in the men's room and some guy was camped out in there. I really had to pee and wished that it was possible for me to use the women's facility but that was not likely.