I'm not even sure anymore... I don't really like sex. I see it as a functional reproduction ploy, with dire consequences such as babies and STD's. Orgasm = Nature's incentive in cheating animals to reproduce. Or is that too cynical? So... I think I can label myself as Asexual, but that sounds too rebellious and political... I dunno. Nonsexual? I don't belong on this planet.

Quote from: Susan522 on November 24, 2014, 03:09:53 PM

And therein lies the problem.  How is one to communicate, carry on a conversation, or even understand one anther, if the meaning of words is variable/changeable/optional and/or "depending".  Sure context is one thing as in "running a machine" or "running for exercise".  But terms like "demi", (which means partial or incomplete), or "trans", (another antonym which is often misused and consequently misunderstood)....should IMHO have clearly understood and agreed upon means.

Otherwise chaos ensues and peoples get their feeling hurt, and I end up in the penalty box

And who gets to define them? You act like language is a fixed and immutable thing, when really it isn't. insisting that people use definitions usually defined by straight, white, cis male academics is an act of violence and oppression in itself.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on November 26, 2014, 10:08:54 AM
And who gets to define them? You act like language is a fixed and immutable thing, when really it isn't. insisting that people use definitions usually defined by straight, white, cis male academics is an act of violence and oppression in itself.

Nonsense!  Community is an act of consensus.  Government is an act of consensus.  Likewise the definition of terms/terminology/language is an act of consensus.  Allowing for a "fluidity" of language, where definitions are "whatever" anybody says they are, depending on how they feel today or how much pot they smoked today, is a recipe for chaos and/or anarchy, which is what we are witnessing in Ferguson, MO., and other large cities where self serving activists are exploiting the death of a young man for their own selfish needs or "progressive' agenda.

I object.  I will continue to speak out against the tyranny of the mob for as long as I am able.  Sorry about the de-rail, but I simply will not buy into the plethora of anarchistic BS that seems to have invaded the so called "trans* movement".

Responding to Susan, but think this is a useful thought to put out there...

You may be bothered by that termonology, but frankly I don't think you should be.  The term identity bothers me too, but since all of this is fluid, I am in a way understanding of why the word is used.  Some of what we expierence (i.e dysphoria) is whooly a matter of biology, but other things-the pronouns we use, the clothes we choose to wear are personal choices, albiet ones that are in no way independent of the other factors at play.  So I take it as is...

Your understanding is entirely wrong!  There are many of us who experience substantial physical dysphoria, and a few (such as myself) even identify as transexual; it simply means that I am not comfortable with traditional roles and notions wrt gender, or rather, I do not feel like I fit within those roles.  Others can choose to do this and it's fine, but I just don't feel right with it myself.  I am both sensitive and assertive.  I like pants and dresses...I am a woman, but I'm not comfortable with all of the labels, expectations and presumptions that come along with the word "woman". 

You're of course right that this is a need, but the social piece is a major one as well.  I think that the social cost of being openly trans is a huge piece of this for me.  Of course I also need to change my body-but that's only part of the issue.  Surgery is important to me, but so is a sense of belonging.  Perhaps even more so. 

Now, the practicals are even now a bit much for me.  And while it's fine for some people to give up their entire lives and just make that money, I am not happy to do this.  There are other things that matter to me, and my education is, right now, even more important to fixing my body.  One impedes my ability to live, but the other gives me a reason to go on.  I'm hoping to get it eventually...but I'm not like you in that my transition is just a part of who I am and what I need to be happy.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on November 26, 2014, 06:21:59 PM
Responding to Susan, but think this is a useful thought to put out there...

You may be bothered by that termonology, but frankly I don't think you should be.  The term identity bothers me too, but since all of this is fluid, I am in a way understanding of why the word is used.  Some of what we expierence (i.e dysphoria) is whooly a matter of biology, but other things-the pronouns we use, the clothes we choose to wear are personal choices, albiet ones that are in no way independent of the other factors at play.  So I take it as is...

Your understanding is entirely wrong!  There are many of us who experience substantial physical dysphoria, and a few (such as myself) even identify as transexual; it simply means that I am not comfortable with traditional roles and notions wrt gender, or rather, I do not feel like I fit within those roles.  Others can choose to do this and it's fine, but I just don't feel right with it myself.  I am both sensitive and assertive.  I like pants and dresses...I am a woman, but I'm not comfortable with all of the labels, expectations and presumptions that come along with the word "woman". 

You're of course right that this is a need, but the social piece is a major one as well.  I think that the social cost of being openly trans is a huge piece of this for me.  Of course I also need to change my body-but that's only part of the issue.  Surgery is important to me, but so is a sense of belonging.  Perhaps even more so. 

Now, the practicals are even now a bit much for me.  And while it's fine for some people to give up their entire lives and just make that money, I am not happy to do this.  There are other things that matter to me, and my education is, right now, even more important to fixing my body.  One impedes my ability to live, but the other gives me a reason to go on.  I'm hoping to get it eventually...but I'm not like you in that my transition is just a part of who I am and what I need to be happy.

I really like this response in that there is a lot of thoughtfulness as opposed to the usual regurgitation of "anti-establishment" rhetoric.  Firstly there is an acknowledgment of our differences in personal perceptions.  What this does it allows for a deeper inquiry into the thinking behind this:  "There are many of us who experience substantial physical dysphoria, and a few (such as myself) even identify as transexual; it simply means that I am not comfortable with traditional roles and notions wrt gender, or rather, I do not feel like I fit within those roles"

The questions I have include, but are not limited to, the following:  The 'physical dysphoria' that you refer to above...Is this a fundamental unhappiness with your sexual morphology?  If it is, then I clearly understand and sympathize.  However, my confusion comes from this 'seemingly' related statement that, "it simply means that I am not comfortable with traditional roles and notions wrt gender, or rather, I do not feel like I fit within those roles."

This is not how I understand the symptomology of Transsexualism.  Simply put, I see Transsexualism as a serious and acute discomfort with one's sexual morphology...not as a discomfort  "with traditional roles and notions wrt gender, or rather, I do not feel like I fit within those roles".  Personally, I am all over the place with my "presentation".
I just don't see presentation as the issue.  From my POV, this is the issue:  "I think that the social cost of being openly trans is a huge piece of this for me. "

If the cost of being 'openly trans*' is a major/"huge" piece of this for you, and it is getting between you and your goals an your happiness, then why not prioritize those things which might improve your current state of existence?  It just seems that maintaining this queer identity is getting in your way.

As for me I'm all girl/woman, a bit of a girly girl lesbian who prefers other girly girl lesbians like myself. However I respect every ones preference in their individuality and sexual preferences. But in answer to the question, for me sexually I'm attracted to and prefer girls.

Peace everyone.

Ally
                                                                                                                             

Quote from: suzifrommd on November 19, 2014, 08:12:58 AM
I am pansexual. I enjoy the person, not the gender. Solves the whole "categorizing" thing.

This is probably the best way I can describe my orientation.  I was strictly hetero for some time but my desires changed earlier this year.  It's not unusual for that to happen to people.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on November 26, 2014, 10:08:54 AM
And who gets to define them? You act like language is a fixed and immutable thing, when really it isn't.

Also, I agree with this alongside turning "queer" into a more positive term.

I'm asexual, so that about solves it for me.  Haha

Gave it some more thought, and I actually feel like when I was pre-puberty, as a child.

Not interested, not feeling anything related to sex. Sex never crosses my mind anymore. It is so much more orderly and peaceful, not being driven by hormones and urges. Maybe I have desexed myself. I am not sure, but ever since on HRT I had no libido, and after surgery I was completely void of any sexual desire. And I kinda like it that way. And what is sex anyway... just a couple of minutes of exchanging bodily fluids. No wonder it grosses me out. What's the big deal anyway, when you think it through.

I love bumper stickers and one of my favs is "We're Here We're Queer Get Used To It"  and that one is over a decade old.  Face it folks,  the only real constant is change;-)

Queer is a statement in my case that is political and inclusive of gender and orientation.  I also identify as Bi or Pan and rather like Jill's "unlimited" identity.  What great fluid fun!

I am queer and like our lovely Julie i have been in what others would call straight, gay, bi and lesbian relationships.  Just labels when it is the love we share with people that counts.  I am also now a wife to my wife and we are amused to find that people who witness our public displays of affection, like a kiss, to raise eyebrows.  Same two sets of lips as years before but now it's shocking?  Go figure what really matters to some?

Quote from: Vestyn on November 20, 2014, 09:42:03 AM
Erm, yep, thanks Emerald. 

I uh, must admit, though, that the most commonly used word in English that ends in "-phile" is not exactly a club I'm eager to join... 

I agree.
As for my orientation it's just dick (man or transF) lol that makes it so much easier, without the "phile"..
Or maybe I'm a non-vaginal liking bisexual lol, I really don't feel like I fit into any orientation category.       

Right now I am boycotting my sexual orientation. I've got my picket signs.

The word i use is queer. Queer 4 queer!

I'm very fluid, although when i swing feminine i tend to be "more" femme, & my masculinity is quite glam & dapper. ("Demigirl" is a great word, i think i'll tryit on today and see if it fits.) As my gender shifts my sexuality shifts, & vice versa. I'm a switch with a good attitude and effortlessly adjust my energy to compliment my partners.

Because my attractions (and "identity" - whatever that means hahaha) are always changing, i reaally love the word queer. I also resonate with the community, challenging the gender binary & the societal compulsion to fix an"identity" as one or another (male or female, gay or straight). Queer is community, acceptance, anti-oppression.

As for my specific attractions, specifically i like genderqueer folk, gender non-conformists, gender benders, gender enders, tricksters, and illusionists. But simply saying "queer" is enough for solidarity purposes. It's great shorthand. It could mean anything, yet paradoxically, it always helps me find my tribe.

When I first came out to myself it felt weird to think of myself as gay because I'm a girl that likes girls. To me gay means guys liking guys. Calling myself a lesbian felt strange as well. It was easier to just say I like girls. Now calling myself a lesbian doesn't seem so strange. Gay still seams a little strange, but not as bad.

Quote from: Susan522 on November 26, 2014, 05:44:14 PM
Nonsense!  Community is an act of consensus.  Government is an act of consensus.  Likewise the definition of terms/terminology/language is an act of consensus.  Allowing for a "fluidity" of language, where definitions are "whatever" anybody says they are, depending on how they feel today or how much pot they smoked today, is a recipe for chaos and/or anarchy, which is what we are witnessing in Ferguson, MO., and other large cities where self serving activists are exploiting the death of a young man for their own selfish needs or "progressive' agenda.

Ummm... ok. I'm gonna say it.
NOT COOL!
Opposing systemic racism and inequality is not a "selfish need."

QuoteI object.  I will continue to speak out against the tyranny of the mob for as long as I am able.  Sorry about the de-rail, but I simply will not buy into the plethora of anarchistic BS that seems to have invaded the so called "trans* movement".

This is the non-binary subforum, correct?
I come here to feel safe.
You seem to be calling a certain subset of nonbinary queers, our words, our thoughts and struggles, "BS." I hope i misunderstand you, but i'm having trouble reading your posts as anything but hostile. Please say it ain't so.

Hello,
Susan can be a little dramatic no?  Lol, yes this is the non-binary area but people do not and ought not check their beliefs and/or opinions at the door when they arrive.  Conflict is a part of conversation, and the conversation here can be dynamic and even sometimes abrasive depending on the author.  Here is the thing.  We absolutely must allow people to have their say without censorship.  Your points are well taken, and I agree.  It was also derailing the conversation into politics and political philosophy.  Things get derailed here all the time.

Last month there was a dust up on this.  One person in particular refused to allow others to express themselves without fear and without judgement.  I believe that there was no evil intent, but it blew the forum apart. Fifty people left because they did not feel free to cry, suffer anguish, struggle, and ultimately triumph.  We lost some of the best and the brightest.  I stick around because I think this place and the people who come seeking authentic lives here are too important, and because I have enough hubris to think that I might be useful.

When there is hostility, by all means call it out, but anarchy and freedom of expression is the alpha and omega of this forum.  I have learned more from the participants here than in any other venue I have ever discovered.  I am glad that you are mining the history here.  Pay attention to Taka, Satinjoy, Ativan, Aisla, Shan and others to numerous to mention.  There is insight here that extends back in time spanning years.  It is up to us to carry the wisdom forward with consideration and selflessness.  Thank you for doing so here.

Peace,

Julie

Quote from: awilliams1701 on December 30, 2014, 12:55:09 PM
When I first came out to myself it felt weird to think of myself as gay because I'm a girl that likes girls. To me gay means guys liking guys. Calling myself a lesbian felt strange as well. It was easier to just say I like girls. Now calling myself a lesbian doesn't seem so strange. Gay still seams a little strange, but not as bad.

How about human?  Gay and Lesbian are artifice.  I am a woman who loves people.  What that makes me is spontaneous and generous of spirit.  Why would I refuse to learn and be intimate with a man, just because he identifies as male and loves men?  Why would I not embrace a woman who finds delight in feminine intimacy?  I spent most of sixty years trying to be a straight dude.   It wasn't me and it sucked.  I intend to spend the remainder of my life as a woman who embraces diversity in all of its color, and all of its confusing charm.

Fair winds on this sunny day in Seattle,

Julie

I was just trying to say that in my case I dealt with the orientation issue by avoiding the common labels and just saying that I like girls.

As for people in general, sorry but I can't do men. I'm completely revolted by the male form including what little masculinity I have left. My disphoria would always hit me when that area got excited. Now that it doesn't I find that the disphoria is a lot more mild. But I can't wait to get rid of it with SRS and then I hope I never see one again.

Quote from: JulieBlair on December 30, 2014, 01:34:13 PM
How about human?  Gay and Lesbian are artifice.  I am a woman who loves people.  What that makes me is spontaneous and generous of spirit.  Why would I refuse to learn and be intimate with a man, just because he identifies as male and loves men?  Why would I not embrace a woman who finds delight in feminine intimacy?  I spent most of sixty years trying to be a straight dude.   It wasn't me and it sucked.  I intend to spend the remainder of my life as a woman who embraces diversity in all of its color, and all of its confusing charm.

Fair winds on this sunny day in Seattle,

Julie

Quote from: awilliams1701 on December 30, 2014, 01:43:07 PM
I was just trying to say that in my case I dealt with the orientation issue by avoiding the common labels and just saying that I like girls.

As for people in general, sorry but I can't do men. I'm completely revolted by the male form including what little masculinity I have left. My disphoria would always hit me when that area got excited. Now that it doesn't I find that the disphoria is a lot more mild. But I can't wait to get rid of it with SRS and then I hope I never see one again.

Fair enough do you have the surgery scheduled?  I have some other medical issues that will keep me deformed for another year. (And I was so excited when I got my year of RLE and now I have to wait some more.   )

I'm glad to see you reply, Julie. I like seeing you around here.

From my own experience in "identity," i've been on the receiving end of a lot of cruel words & judgements from people who've said i'm not ___ enough.  Ive been slammed back into the gender/sexuality closet on a couple occasions which are quite painful in my memory.

Years of feeling not quite right, and anxiety around trans, gay/bi, poly, kinky, social justice activists, etc resulted.

Comfortable as a "trans ally," i was afraid to come out as genderfluid (gendersomething, gendermushy?) for fear of being scolded, or far far worse, accused of harming the cause.

I've worked on accepting myself, and on defending nonbinary people while still striving to honor and center transsexual people in wider discussions of gender rights. But here in the nonbinary subforum, i'd hate to imagine another nonbinary newbie wandering into a thread about sexual orientation and feeling invalidated, even if unintentionally.

I'd not want to censor anyone. But i would want to remind. I daresay that everyone here has probably been on the receiving end of "what you are isn't real" or "you're just making up words" at one point or another. And we never know when even someone who seems very strong might be having a vulnerable day.

On that note, to Susan522, if you read this, i want to thank you for bringing up valid points about meaning within communication. You've inspired some quality journalling. I wouldn't delve as deep without the hard questions. Thank you.

Aaand... done with my/our derail? I hope?