That makes a ton of sense Phoenix.  And thank you for the work you do.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on January 03, 2015, 05:35:02 PM
I guess I just wish I could be someone that doesn't make cis people uncomfortable :/  It's very isolating, being that kind of trans person, and I really wish I could get to a point in my life where I don't stick out as much.  The truth is, I do sorta think people who stick out like me are hurting our cause sometimes, it's why I started this topic.  But, how much of this is based in fact and not shame isn't clear to me.

You look great in your avatar, so maybe passing isn't such a far away idea for you.  I understand the isolating feeling, I think it's hard not to feel that way sometimes being trans, passable or not.  Lastly, anytime you wonder about whether you hurt something or another just by being yourself, there probably is some shame going on, but idk.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on January 03, 2015, 05:35:02 PM
I guess I just wish I could be someone that doesn't make cis people uncomfortable :/  It's very isolating, being that kind of trans person, and I really wish I could get to a point in my life where I don't stick out as much.  The truth is, I do sorta think people who stick out like me are hurting our cause sometimes, it's why I started this topic.  But, how much of this is based in fact and not shame isn't clear to me.

Well, two things about that.  First of all, who says you make cis people uncomfortable?  There are quite a few who are fine with a trans* person, whether the person passes as cisgender or not.

Second, the cause is ultimately all about making the world safe for trans* people of all kinds.  That means people who pass, people who don't, and people for whom passing isn't even a sensible notion.  How can you possibly be hurting the cause when at the end of the day, you *are* the cause? 

If have no idea where you are.  If you're somewhere in the D.C. area, come see me and I'll put you to work if you want to do some work!

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on January 03, 2015, 05:35:02 PM
I guess I just wish I could be someone that doesn't make cis people uncomfortable :/  It's very isolating, being that kind of trans person, and I really wish I could get to a point in my life where I don't stick out as much.  The truth is, I do sorta think people who stick out like me are hurting our cause sometimes, it's why I started this topic.  But, how much of this is based in fact and not shame isn't clear to me.

Honestly, you look like my sister when she was younger, and my sis is cis.... You also remind me a bit of Lucille Ball.

Quote from: mrs izzy on January 02, 2015, 09:05:10 PM
Personally no.

We are one and the same with the lgb side.

I really do have to disagree.

We are similar to the extent that we share a common struggle of acceptance by society. But to me that's where it abruptly ends. That's not to say we shouldn't stick together and pool our resources, but we have to acknowledge our differences. And our differences are that we want to change ourselves to conform to society's norms in the gender we are more comfortable in. GLB wants to make their lifestyle (for lack of a better world) into a norm.

QuoteThere are very few transitioning or transitioned trans* that are hetro.

Majority in relationships are gay or lesbian or bi.

I'd call this an artifact rather than a desired outcome for many. Many trans are GLB because they are in existing relationships that they don't want break off. They change genders and the partner is the same gender as her/him, boom, same sex relationship/marriage.

Quote
So to say we are harming the movement is absurd when we are a deep part of that movement.

I think it was Sen Barney Frank or someone else who lamented the fact that transgender people are not as vocal as gays and lesbians when it comes to our rights. Indeed, it is this way for a very good reason. The concept of transgender and transitioning for many is a process, not a destination. So once we reach "the end" whether it be SRS or some point where we are satisfied that we've transitioned to where we need to go, we really don't have to worry about the gender issues anymore and move on with life. Not so with gays and lesbians. They don't really have a process. Being gay or lesbian doesn't have a beginning and an end. Sure, they can get married now but after the wedding they are still gay.

Myself I think that at some point my gender issues will be in my past and I will fully move on with life. Whether it be partial stealth or even being out and not caring what people think, there will come a point where I'm just a woman and nothing more.

ImagineKate,

See That's what makes the world go around.

Differences of opinions.

Koodos

Quote from: Dee Walker on January 03, 2015, 03:28:44 PM
It seems to me that gender should be no more and no less significant than hair color.

If it was then a lot of transsexuals would be disappointed. Gender for many is at their core. This is why gender dysphoria strikes so hard, our core is out of sync with our exterior. I have to agree with Hikari - gender is extremely important to me and I am female and I wish to express that to the world. I'm not a third gender and my gender is not insignificant. When I hear of places like India that pass a law giving a special third gender status for transsexuals instead of allowing them to legally be their chosen gender, I view this as an extreme setback. It's separate but equal and is much like civil unions and domestic partnerships vs (same sex) marriage. It is practically segregation. With "third gender" options for transsexuals it is basically saying we cannot be accepted at the table of our chosen gender, for some reason or another, and that is that society and our Government views us as lesser and needs to make a distinction between cis and trans. It's exactly like the segregated lunch counters, bathrooms and water fountains.

Quote from: ImagineKate on January 03, 2015, 10:03:32 PM
I'd call this an artifact rather than a desired outcome for many. Many trans are GLB because they are in existing relationships that they don't want break off. They change genders and the partner is the same gender as her/him, boom, same sex relationship/marriage.

Um...no, and this is really, really offensive.  A VAST majority of the trans women I know, young trans woman, who had no prior marriages before their transition identify as either gay or bi.  For the record, only eight percent of relationships survive the transition process, but somewhere around seventy percent of trans women are reported to be either bisexual or gay.  I am not queer because of an "artifact, rather than a desired outcome", and most of us aren't.  I think it's time you re-assess your opinion on the subject.

I actually think that we are less vocal about our identities than LGBQ folk because we still face a stigma far greater than they do.  Many never do get past this period of their life, in which they are visibly trans.  Furthermore, even if I ever do get past it, I'm going to see this as a pivotal part of my life, and I can't just move past this.  Even after the bulk of my transition is finished-I'm still a trans women.  I still face a significant stigma unless I can manage to pull off a flawless stealth (which very few can), and I still won't have the right gender marker or the right "parts".  The struggle doesn't just end when you start to pass hon...being trans affects us long before we transition and long after too.  And, leaving our sisters behind because we've already somehow managed to make it through isn't going to make the world a better place for us.  I'm always going to be a trans woman, and you're always going to be a trans women.  Never forget that fact hon-it's who you are, and I dream of a world in which we can take pride in that.

Quote from: ImagineKate on January 03, 2015, 10:14:54 PM
If it was then a lot of transsexuals would be disappointed. Gender for many is at their core. This is why gender dysphoria strikes so hard, our core is out of sync with our exterior. I have to agree with Hikari - gender is extremely important to me and I am female and I wish to express that to the world. I'm not a third gender and my gender is not insignificant. When I hear of places like India that pass a law giving a special third gender status for transsexuals instead of allowing them to legally be their chosen gender, I view this as an extreme setback. It's separate but equal and is much like civil unions and domestic partnerships vs (same sex) marriage. It is practically segregation. With "third gender" options for transsexuals it is basically saying we cannot be accepted at the table of our chosen gender, for some reason or another, and that is that society and our Government views us as lesser and needs to make a distinction between cis and trans. It's exactly like the segregated lunch counters, bathrooms and water fountains.

I don't think that comment was meant to be demeaning to the role of gender in establishing our identities.  I'm also transsexual, but I'm of this mindset too.  Gender, like hair color, should be as significant as we'd like it to be.  For many (you and I) gender happens to be more significant to us than hair color.  For more than a few of my queer friends, hair color is by far more significant than gender!  Everyone has the right to approach the subject from their own perspective, which is why I don't think we should impose gender on anyone.  No F, no M, no nothing-if you want to express a gender, great, feel free to do it!  But nobody should be required to identify as male, female, or anything else.

And yeah, adding a third gender marker would cause WAY too many problems for me to even consider it a good thing!  Hence, my desire to do away with the markers entirely.  Having a separate mark for F and M seems to be just another form of segregation to me. 

Quote from: ImagineKate on January 03, 2015, 10:03:32 PM
I really do have to disagree.

We are similar to the extent that we share a common struggle of acceptance by society. But to me that's where it abruptly ends. That's not to say we shouldn't stick together and pool our resources, but we have to acknowledge our differences. And our differences are that we want to change ourselves to conform to society's norms in the gender we are more comfortable in. GLB wants to make their lifestyle (for lack of a better world) into a norm.

I agree with you that the T differs rather significantly from the LGB.  But I respectfully differ from you in the desire of trans* people to change themselves to fit norms.  Some trans* people do indeed desire that.  I did and still do.  But there are also quite a few trans* people for whom passing, blending in, and seeming cisnormative would be very undesirable. 

When we get into non-binary identities, the idea of passing often breaks down entirely.  Some non-binary folks are very happy with being perceived as belonging to one side of the binary.  But many struggle with the question of how to present in a way that their identity will be recognized and respected.  How does a person "pass" as bigender, for example?  What does "passing" even mean?  And how is it possible to be cisnormative while presenting outside the binary?

See what I mean?  Different strokes for different folks and all that.  And sometimes that means that conforming to the norms of society is the opposite of the point.

QuoteI'd call this an artifact rather than a desired outcome for many. Many trans are GLB because they are in existing relationships that they don't want break off. They change genders and the partner is the same gender as her/him, boom, same sex relationship/marriage.

The sexual orientations of trans* people have been studied.  I'm sorry I don't have the stats off the top of my head.  But they seemed to clearly indicate that LGB orientations are over represented in the trans* community.  But, if memory serves, they did NOT indicate that the LGB folks made up a majority.  I think they showed that a plurality was hetero identified.  There were much larger numbers of folks who were LGB, asexual, and otger orientations.  But it is definitely incorrect to say that hetero identified trans* people are rare.  They are quite common, actually. 

QuoteI think it was Sen Barney Frank or someone else who lamented the fact that transgender people are not as vocal as gays and lesbians when it comes to our rights. Indeed, it is this way for a very good reason. The concept of transgender and transitioning for many is a process, not a destination. So once we reach "the end" whether it be SRS or some point where we are satisfied that we've transitioned to where we need to go, we really don't have to worry about the gender issues anymore and move on with life. Not so with gays and lesbians. They don't really have a process. Being gay or lesbian doesn't have a beginning and an end. Sure, they can get married now but after the wedding they are still gay.

Myself I think that at some point my gender issues will be in my past and I will fully move on with life. Whether it be partial stealth or even being out and not caring what people think, there will come a point where I'm just a woman and nothing more.

I too wish more trans* people would be more vocal.   But why they are is a whole other can of worms.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on January 03, 2015, 10:21:37 PM
Um...no, and this is really, really offensive.  A VAST majority of the trans women I know, young trans woman, who had no prior marriages before their transition identify as either gay or bi.  For the record, only eight percent of relationships survive the transition process, but somewhere around seventy percent of trans women are reported to be either bisexual or gay.  I am not queer because of an "artifact, rather than a desired outcome", and most of us aren't.  I think it's time you re-assess your opinion on the subject.

Okay.  Rather than try to remember stats I last looked up years ago, I went and looked the actual stats up.  According to the National Transgender Discrimination Survey, "[r]elationships ended for 45% of those who came out to partners."  So that would suggest that 55% of relationships survived.  That's encouraging.

Sexual orientations break down as follows:
Bisexual:  25%
Lesbian/gay:  23%
Queer:  23%
Asexual:  4%
Other:  2%

So LGB orientations do make up nearly half the trans* population.  And LGBQ orientations are a sold majority.  But I would not describe the 23% who identify as straight as being a rarity or uncommon. 

I'd probably describe the 4% who share my orientation as being uncommon though. And that's what I get for relying on stats that I don't often use instead of just looking in the first place!

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on January 03, 2015, 10:21:37 PM
Um...no, and this is really, really offensive.  A VAST majority of the trans women I know, young trans woman, who had no prior marriages before their transition identify as either gay or bi.  For the record, only eight percent of relationships survive the transition process, but somewhere around seventy percent of trans women are reported to be either bisexual or gay.  I am not queer because of an "artifact, rather than a desired outcome", and most of us aren't.  I think it's time you re-assess your opinion on the subject.

I think you are deeply misunderstanding here. I did not mean to demean you because of your sexual orientation.

Also, yes, existing relationship, but there is also existing orientation. This is why a lot of trans women and trans men are gay/lesbian/bi. From what I see it usually goes like this - I am really a woman/man on the inside, so I want to be one on the outside, but I've always been attracted to women/men and that's not going to change. So in reality, I don't think a lot who are trans decided that they'd be trans so they can be gay/lesbian. It just sort of happened.

I would also take with a grain of salt any so-called definitive figures about transgender people based on surveys because so many of us simply disappear after transition. The turnover rate here, for example, is certainly an indication of just how many people desire to drop the trans label as soon as they are able to.

Quote
I actually think that we are less vocal about our identities than LGBQ folk because we still face a stigma far greater than they do.  Many never do get past this period of their life, in which they are visibly trans.  Furthermore, even if I ever do get past it, I'm going to see this as a pivotal part of my life, and I can't just move past this.  Even after the bulk of my transition is finished-I'm still a trans women.  I still face a significant stigma unless I can manage to pull off a flawless stealth (which very few can), and I still won't have the right gender marker or the right "parts".  The struggle doesn't just end when you start to pass hon...being trans affects us long before we transition and long after too. 

I disagree with the first part. This is because at one time, trans women were pretty much all stealth, with the exception of sex workers, show girls and the like. I'm sure you've read about Lynn Conway, who lived in stealth for years and only came out around the turn of the millenium because she wanted credit for her prior work. Even though I've just started transitioning, in reality I've viewed transgender issues and the process from a distance from a long time now. Much of it was focused on stealth and blending in. It makes sense too, because you are treated differently, from what I was told and you avoid many of the issues that trans-ness brings. Stealth is also a spectrum. I can never truly be deep stealth but I'd be happy being stealth to strangers. Many people are happy with that. Some want full, deep, "it goes with me to the grave" stealth and do not tell anyone, not even their sexual partners. This is dangerous but I can understand why they do it. I really don't want the eyes on me. I don't want the distinction at first glance, is how I'd put it, because human nature is to regard us as lesser.

I don't really believe the struggle ever ends either, but I do believe it gets much easier once you've moved past a certain point. Beyond that point, many want to simply be seen as women (or men) and just move on with life. Being trans can be a nice thing but since it is a condition often brought about by distress, I don't think most people want to linger on it. On a side note, I'm sorry about your situation and passing and I really hope that you can find your way to pass (if you so desire.)

QuoteAnd, leaving our sisters behind because we've already somehow managed to make it through isn't going to make the world a better place for us.  I'm always going to be a trans woman, and you're always going to be a trans women.  Never forget that fact hon-it's who you are, and I dream of a world in which we can take pride in that.

I don't really view it as leaving anyone behind. There is plenty that can be done while blending, passing or even stealth. As far as making the world a better place, most did not decide to transition to become activists. We just want to relieve our dysphoria and get on with life. There is really nothing wrong with that. And I have no illusion that I'll stop being a trans woman. But at some point the trans label becomes superfluous because trans is a journey, not a destination. Therefore there is less emphasis on being trans, and more about being a woman. I don't plan to go around like Laverne Cox, for example, shouting to the world that I am trans, out and proud. Maybe I'll be more like Lynn Conway, living quietly but still acknowledging my trans-ness to people who won't have a negative reaction. Notice the difference - Laverne is known primarily because she is trans. Lynn is known primarily because of her work. Put another way, I believe in letting my accomplishments, not my identity speak for me. Being trans for me is a footnote. People may or may not know (I won't care much if they do) but I don't want people to focus on it. The reason for this is simple - when your primary feature is that you are trans, people can't seem to stop focusing on it. Look at interviews with Laverne Cox and Janet Mock. The question about surgery and whether her (Janet) husband knew pretty much always comes up. Their work seems to be treated like much of an afterthought.

QuoteI don't think that comment was meant to be demeaning to the role of gender in establishing our identities.  I'm also transsexual, but I'm of this mindset too.  Gender, like hair color, should be as significant as we'd like it to be.  For many (you and I) gender happens to be more significant to us than hair color.  For more than a few of my queer friends, hair color is by far more significant than gender!  Everyone has the right to approach the subject from their own perspective, which is why I don't think we should impose gender on anyone.  No F, no M, no nothing-if you want to express a gender, great, feel free to do it!  But nobody should be required to identify as male, female, or anything else.

And yeah, adding a third gender marker would cause WAY too many problems for me to even consider it a good thing!  Hence, my desire to do away with the markers entirely.  Having a separate mark for F and M seems to be just another form of segregation to me.

It really should be a choice, but at the same time removing all distinction between the genders is going to render gender identity and transition close to useless and merely cosmetic, instead of relieving an underlying condition.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 03, 2015, 10:40:07 PM
Okay.  Rather than try to remember stats I last looked up years ago, I went and looked the actual stats up.  According to the National Transgender Discrimination Survey, "[r]elationships ended for 45% of those who came out to partners."  So that would suggest that 55% of relationships survived.  That's encouraging.

Sexual orientations break down as follows:
Bisexual:  25%
Lesbian/gay:  23%
Queer:  23%
Asexual:  4%
Other:  2%

So LGB orientations do make up nearly half the trans* population.  And LGBQ orientations are a sold majority.  But I would not describe the 23% who identify as straight as being a rarity or uncommon. 

I'd probably describe the 4% who share my orientation as being uncommon though. And that's what I get for relying on stats that I don't often use instead of just looking in the first place!

And bear in mind this is people who acknowledge that they are trans. Many who are in straight relationships don't go out telling the world, because they'd rather not rock the boat... So I suspect the number in straight relationships is actually much higher than polled.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 03, 2015, 10:23:17 PM
I agree with you that the T differs rather significantly from the LGB.  But I respectfully differ from you in the desire of trans* people to change themselves to fit norms.  Some trans* people do indeed desire that.  I did and still do.  But there are also quite a few trans* people for whom passing, blending in, and seeming cisnormative would be very undesirable. 

When we get into non-binary identities, the idea of passing often breaks down entirely.  Some non-binary folks are very happy with being perceived as belonging to one side of the binary.  But many struggle with the question of how to present in a way that their identity will be recognized and respected.  How does a person "pass" as bigender, for example?  What does "passing" even mean?  And how is it possible to be cisnormative while presenting outside the binary?

See what I mean?  Different strokes for different folks and all that.  And sometimes that means that conforming to the norms of society is the opposite of the point.

I don't doubt that, but I doubt that non binary is a majority. The majority of trans people do want to conform. I'll grant though, that non binary is not an insignificant stat. But it is not dominant. That said, they still do deserve respect.

QuoteThe sexual orientations of trans* people have been studied.  I'm sorry I don't have the stats off the top of my head.  But they seemed to clearly indicate that LGB orientations are over represented in the trans* community.  But, if memory serves, they did NOT indicate that the LGB folks made up a majority.  I think they showed that a plurality was hetero identified.  There were much larger numbers of folks who were LGB, asexual, and otger orientations.  But it is definitely incorrect to say that hetero identified trans* people are rare.  They are quite common, actually. 

I too wish more trans* people would be more vocal.   But why they are is a whole other can of worms.

This revolves around the question of stealth. I really don't think we'll get an exact figure because it is impossible to count the number of stealth. For starters we don't even know how many there are. But I have a feeling that it's pretty big, based on trends even in our small community here such as the high turnover rate.

I don't have time to post a substantial reply tonight...but I will say this: Back in the time where almost all trans women were stealth, it was because you were only allowed to transition if you were straight, passable, etc.  I don't know how much history you have about the early programs out there, but they would have barred anyone who looked even slightly masculine-you, me, and most of the other girls here-from even transitioning to begin with.  Just something to keep in mind.  I have a hard time believing that most of us ever get to move past this phase of our lives and have privacy; my activism is as much a product of my belief that I won't ever be able to "conform" as it is out of a moral commitment to making the world a better place for people like us.  I'd love to let my accomplishments speak for me as well of course, and that's how I want to approach the situation.  But have you ever considered what you might do if this continues to be all people see?  How will you cope if you find yourself getting stared at three years into your transition, despite your best efforts otherwise?  Hopefully, you'd fight for the right to be treated like a human being; that's what I'm doing now.

I'm sorry if I seemed confrontational before; I suppose I'm just used to expecting the whole "you aren't trans enough!" thing around here. 

Quote from: ImagineKate on January 03, 2015, 11:50:12 PM
I don't doubt that, but I doubt that non binary is a majority. The majority of trans people do want to conform. I'll grant though, that non binary is not an insignificant stat. But it is not dominant. That said, they still do deserve respect.

I don't know about that.  My personal belief is that non-binary identities are the majority.  There's an interesting academic paper by psychologist Anne Vitale called The Gender Variant Phenomenon--A Developmental Review, in which she observes that clinically, trans* populations can be broken down as follows:

QuoteGroup One (G1) is best described as those natal males who have a high degree of cross-sexed gender identity. In these individuals, we can hypothesize that the prenatal androgenization process--if there was any at all--was minimal, leaving the default female identity intact. Furthermore, the expression of female identity of those individuals appears impossible or very difficult for them to conceal.

Group Two (G2) is composed of natal females who almost universally report a life- long history of rejecting female dress conventions along with, girls' toys and activities, and have a strong distaste for their female secondary sex characteristics. These individuals typically take full advantage of the social permissiveness allowed women in many societies to wear their hair short and dress in loose, gender-neutral clothing. These individuals rarely marry, preferring instead to partner with women who may or may not identify as lesbian. Group Two is the mirror image of Group One.

Group Three (G3) is composed of natal males who identify as female but who act and appear normally male. We can hypothesize that prenatal androgenization was sufficient to allow these individuals to appear and act normally as males but insufficient to establish a firm male gender identity. For these female-identified males, the result is a more complicated and insidious sex/gender discontinuity. Typically, from earliest childhood these individuals suffer increasingly painful and chronic gender dysphoria. They tend to live secretive lives, often making increasingly stronger attempts to convince themselves and others that they are male.

This paper was published in 2003, so terminology has changed since then.  Non-binary wasn't on the radar the way it is now.  But the G3 group sounds a lot like a sort of non-binary on the mtf spectrum.  .

And although we cannot know what happens in the heart or the head of another person, we can see the expression of it.  There seem to be an awful lot of trans women who express a lot of very masculine traits and seem quite happy about it.  And vice versa.  That's not a binary gender expression.  Seeing that might make a person wonder whether the person is truly binary or just not stating a non-binary identity because they don't feel comfortable with the concept of non-binary.  And vice versa on the ftm spectrum.

But there is nothing that tries to measure this.  No stats exist that I know of.

Quote
This revolves around the question of stealth. I really don't think we'll get an exact figure because it is impossible to count the number of stealth. For starters we don't even know how many there are. But I have a feeling that it's pretty big, based on trends even in our small community here such as the high turnover rate.

This depends largely on what one means by stealth, no?  Stealth is not an all or nothing thing. 

In any case, the point of a survey is not to find and interview everyone.  The point is to gather a statistical sample from which conclusions can be drawn about the whole.  It's the same way political polling works.

Group 3 doesn't sound like NB. They sound like MtFs who don't pass nor do they care to. I was under the impression that NB meant identifying neither as male nor female.

As for polls, in this case the sample might not include a representative sample of stealth due to the nature of being stealth.

The gay community has done nothing for transexuals,I've been told my sort aren't wanted on their scene.

I think some think we hurt the lgbt movement. I used to work at a gay club as a dancer (not a stripper lol) and needless to say when I wasn't dancing a lot of guys would try to hit on me, and because of my masculine demeanor at the time the first thing I was ask is if I were gay straight or bi since it was very common for straight men to work there. I would tell them I considered my self straight, but I mainly dated trans women (this was years ago before I would admit I was transgender myself ). A lot of gay men have a lot of really horrible things to say about trans women. Just last night I was talking to a bisexual girl who said some pretty nasty stuff I'd rather not repeat about a trans friend of mine. I hadn't seen her in a while and she didn't know until after she said that I was starting to transition as well. When I told her she was nothing but apologies, but it showed me what she really thought. I know the people I have herd these things from do not speak for everyone, still I've heard bigotry from them towards the trans community much like what they get from the christian right wing. I have even got a lot of hatefulness from trans women I know personally when I told them about me. I'm not sure what it is about being trans but it would def be easier to just be gay.

On the other hand the straight people I have came out to, which isn't many people, but all people I thought would never in a million years accept it first wanted to know it I were gay. I replied, that's not really how it works but no I still like women. Once I told them that it was like well I don't care what you want to look like and they were fine with it. Before I started all this and I was just a masculine guy that dated trans women (which I was very open about) no one seemed to care. I would hear a joke here and there that could be interpenetrated as hate, but it would just be a friend messing with me with no malice intended.

I also live in a small small town in GA that you would expect people to shun me like they did Ron in the Dallas Buyers Club. People will even open up to me and tell me they would date certain trans girls I've brought around.

So I guess my point is from my experience is that the LGB part of th LGBT community seems to have a problem with transgender girls I am not sure about trans guys, but a whole lot of the straight community just sees a girl and it makes it easier for them I think. I am not naive enough to believe this to be the norm, but I don't think it would hurt the LGBT movement. In fact, if you are trying to appeal to straight America it might help in some ways. I know it would help our portion of the community.

I remember when Kristen Beck the Navy S.E.A.L. and pentagon adviser came out, she said her reception was about 50/50. I can't help but to think she helped tons of people that felt different including gay men that were in the military or really just gay men that were expected to be a certain way because of their role in society. It helped me in some ways in realizing I could be who I lt I was suppose to. So I think it is wrong to make the assumption we hurt it. If anything we are helping it.

These are my own experiences with people and they my simply be unique to my surroundings. I really doubt it though.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on January 03, 2015, 10:21:37 PM
Um...no, and this is really, really offensive.

You might find people easier to deal with if you took less offence at what they say and that includes this comment. When you fire back at people you make them defensive. Why not return with a question like "Why do you say that? My experience differs" and let them explain themselves rather than defend themselves.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on January 03, 2015, 10:21:37 PMA VAST majority of the trans women I know, young trans woman, who had no prior marriages before their transition identify as either gay or bi.

Nonetheless, the scenario that Kate outlined does happen. Many of us are changing our outward presentation and our place in society to match our inner selves. Our inner core, what makes us "us" is difficult to change - usually impossible - which is why the process of transition focuses on what can be changed, the physical.

Our natal development is all screwed up which is why we are in this whole mess in the first place, so it is not surprising that our presentation, gender and sexuality are all over the place instead of being neatly aligned like the vast majority of the population.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on January 03, 2015, 10:21:37 PMEven after the bulk of my transition is finished-I'm still a trans women.  I still face a significant stigma unless I can manage to pull off a flawless stealth (which very few can),

You do not need to pull off flawless stealth to fit in to society. I have come across transwomen who knew they did not pass, made some casual remark about their trans-history and where then horrified to find that they had outed themselves. They were passing but because their standards for "passing" where much higher than the cis-population's standards they thought that they were not and they were not overly happy. Sometimes you just have to go with the flow and take things at face value and if it looks like you are passing then assume that you are. It is not an easy habit to learn, but it can be done.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on January 03, 2015, 10:21:37 PMNever forget that fact hon-it's who you are, and I dream of a world in which we can take pride in that.

Why? It is something that happened to me, I had no choice in it like having brown hair. I am not proud of having brown hair or grey eyes. It  just is.

I do feel hurt though when you say that my sexuality is just the result of "screwed up" natal development; there's nothing wrong or screwed up with my sexuality.  It's who I am, and what I like-and I don't appreciate it when people insinuate it's because of some external circumstance or because I'm somehow defective.  I feel strongly about this issue, and while it's true that we do have a wider range of sexual orientations than most people, It makes me feel uncomfortable when you say that this is just some birth defect. 

And I'm sorry for being so aggressive here.  I really am-this has been a hard time for me, and this whole trans thing is starting to really frustrate me.  I just want this phase of my life to be over to be honest-I'm going to continue to advocate for our rights, that's never going to change.  But, I'm sick of every single soul I've ever met knowing about my medical history.  Frankly, I wish I had the option to pull off flawless stealth; I know we all do.  It's not that I'd use that opportunity, but being able to control which people know does sound like something we all strive for.  So, I'm sorry if I sound so angry.  I'm feeling a bit stuck at the moment, and I apologize for how I'm coming off.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on January 04, 2015, 05:10:46 PM
I do feel hurt though when you say that my sexuality is just the result of "screwed up" natal development; there's nothing wrong or screwed up with my sexuality.  It's who I am, and what I like-and I don't appreciate it when people insinuate it's because of some external circumstance or because I'm somehow defective.  I feel strongly about this issue, and while it's true that we do have a wider range of sexual orientations than most people, It makes me feel uncomfortable when you say that this is just some birth defect.

I personally believe people spend way to much time trying to put everyone in categories for how they leave their lives. I think certain categories are useful medically and in society, but anyone who isn't what everyone else perceives as "normal" get lumped into a category that put a negative condentation on what is and has been very normal going back to even ancient societies.

People are who they are and like what they like and it effects no one directly but them. I know it is not at all realistic to expect society to change this, but things would be much better if people were just able to live their lives.

Kinda off topic but still......