I need to figure out if I want to live as a man because I'm trans, or if I want to live as a man because I hate being treated like garbage just because I had misfortune of being born female. I don't even know where to start.

BigMcLargeHuge
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Well I would suppose that there have been lots of women in history who have lived as males to escape gender discrimination. But being trans is not the same as disliking/hating women's roles in society. In fact, for myself, when I was younger (I'm quite a lot older than the average poster here), I was active in the women's movement, because I felt the way women were treated wasn't just. I have a lot of admiration for women, but the thing is I am not one. I would say that dressing as male, and so on, and some people can be read as male all their lives by dressing the role, is not the same as taking T and various surgeries. I think that you should be very cautious taking a medical route, if you are just angry. You might also find that you are not suited to being in a testosterone-based system and really like estrogen better. This is common for people who are not actually guys. It's not exactly a picnic, and can be difficult on your body. I'd say work for change, and if that isn't what's going on with you, you'll figure it out. There are many groups working for justice for women in many communities around the world. Therapy is often helpful, if the therapist is competent.

--Jay

Everything you say makes sense, IF I knew what I wanted. Which I don't. I don't know where my rage against injustice begins, and where genuine gender dysphoria begins. I don't know how to even start untangling that mess.

Unfortunately, there is exactly one therapist within a day's drive of my home who is an expert on trans issues, and I can't afford her ($150 a session! That's more than my monthly food budget!).

What is "estrogen-based system" ? Is it like... estrogen blockers? I use hormonal birth control to suppress my cycles (but do I hate them because I'm trans, or because I've been raised by our patriarchal society to view the functions of the female body as inherently filthy and humiliating?). If an estrogen system would do the same thing, then it's something I should research.

Welcome!

I can say, from personal experience, the way people treat you more or less comes down to the way that you allow them to treat you. Sexism is definitely a real thing, but being male doesn't automatically garner respect from others. Whether I was seen as male or female, the only way that I get respect from other people is by laying clear boundaries and standing by my word. I have had many people who were once disrespectful of me come to really respect me, turning the power dynamics between us around 180, and that happened as both a man and a woman. That might take some work if it's something you haven't really done in the past. But whether you're male, female, or anything in-between, that's work you're going to have to eventually do one way or the other.

Edit: I guess what I'm trying to get at is that to untangle these issues, you just have to work on them separately. Isolate the times where people treat you poorly, and address it as just that - not an issue of gender, but the fact that someone is not treating you with the respect you deserve. And when you have something that feels truly gender-related, address it simply as that. Maybe you'll find that you are both trans and being tired of being treated poorly, those are two separate issues. Maybe you'll find that once you learn how to gain respect, and are more comfortable with your social situation, that you are happy as a female after all. Either way, you'll come out having grown as a person for it and being treated in the way you deserve.

There's two different common types of dysphoria... social gender dysphoria and body gender dysphoria.

Social gender dysphoria is basically being frustrated with being socially seen as your birth sex, and all of the connotations that come with it, and desire to be treated as the opposite sex is treated instead. If you have social gender dysphoria, odds are that you are envious of how guys are treated, feel like you should be treated like guys are treated socially, want to be socially allowed to do masculine things, wear "masculine" clothes, you might feel like your natural emotions and reactions to things are more like guys' are, and you're probably rolling your eyes constantly at the ways that other girls act, and the way that you're therefore expected to act because of socially being female, while looking at how guys act and feeling like that's how you should act and be expected to act.

For me, this "social dysphoria" was most manifested when people expected me to be a tough stoic "act like a man" dudebro, and people automatically gave me the "personal bubble" treatment guys get where they kept their emotional distance because I was male, and I really felt like that was wrong, to the point of grief... It actually hurt me that I wasn't "allowed" to be emotional, allowed to cry, wasn't able to do cute things, and wasn't by default be seen as someone who was nice, friendly, open, emotional. Basically, every time people treated me like a guy, it felt wrong, I felt like I should be being treated like a girl instead.

Now, understand, some people have this, but do not have body dysphoria. There are many people, transmasculine people especially, who are totally fine with escaping the typical female role by adopting a more masculine presentation, but do not need to go on testosterone or alter their bodies in order to be happy.

So with that said, here is body dysphoria. Body dysphoria is actually a feeling that your body should be that of the opposite sex, and is usually accompanied by a desire to be rid of the secondary sexual characteristics of your birth sex. It has nothing to do with social dysphoria. It's not about how other people treat you due to your body, it's about how YOU feel about your body. If you have body dysphoria, odds are that you feel like you shouldn't have breasts, or shouldn't have feminine hips and thigh fat. You'd likely be envious of masculine bodies... the muscles, the square frame, the deep voice, the more angular face, the body and facial hair, and also possibly their genitals. A lot of trans guys report feeling "phantom penises" where it actually feels wrong that they don't have one.

For me, body dysphoria manifested itself mostly through an absolute hatred of my body. I felt trapped. I felt like I was stuck in a body that was, every single year, getting more and more masculine, more and more ugly to my own eyes and mind, and less and less like the round smooth "cute" feminine body that I felt like I should have. It felt so unfair... why didn't I have hips? Why didn't I have a curvy waist? Why did I have to have all of this disgusting body hair sprouting everywhere? Why did my voice have to change? Why did my face have to keep getting squarer and squarer every year, and less and less cute and round? I hated that I couldn't seem to cry at things, felt irrationally angry a lot, and had to put up with a testosterone-fueled male sex-drive that dominated my thoughts and always felt wrong. And I actually did experience "phantom vagina" feelings where more or less every single time I felt a penis in my shorts, it actually felt to my mind like it shouldn't be there. Basically, it caused me active discomfort to live in my own body.



Those are the two dysphorias. They're by no means the be all and end all of being trans, and this is just my own experience with it, but hopefully it's at least something to think about. If you're interested, here's the official DSM diagnostic criteria for having gender dysphoria... this is the guide that a psychologist or gender therapist would use to diagnose someone as transgender:

Quote from: ___ on October 13, 2014, 02:05:33 PM
Gender Dysphoria: "A marked incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender, and assigned gender... of at least 6 months duration, and manifested by 2 or more of the following indicators:"

1. Incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender, and one's actual primary/secondary sexual characteristics. (Body dysphoria)

2. A strong desire to be rid of one's primary/secondary sexual characteristics due to this incongruence. (Or in young adolescents a desire to prevent the development of anticipated secondary sexual characteristics.)

3. A strong desire for the primary/secondary sexual characteristics of the other gender.

4. A strong desire to be the other gender. (Or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender.)

5. A strong desire to be treated as the other gender. (Or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender.)

6. A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender. (Or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender.)

One thing that I find helpful for isolating social issues from gender dysphoria is to imagine how I would want to look if I was trapped on a deserted island. Maybe this could help you?

Quote from: Zoidberg on January 04, 2015, 03:19:08 PM
One thing that I find helpful for isolating social issues from gender dysphoria is to imagine how I would want to look if I was trapped on a deserted island. Maybe this could help you?

that's a good idea!

My way:
When I have doubts, I try to imagine a part of my soul as a separate item, put it in front of me and ask it: what do's disturbing you? and what do you want? Then I imagine, I gave to this part what it  wants and ask again: how? something still bothered? what do you want? Asking until we (I & my imaginary partner) feel harmony and comfort. So I can understand what is missing.

Everyone should be treated the way they want to be treated. That's not up for discussion. However, I do not understand why anyone would want to be treated like a woman if they had another option. Being a woman is blood and fear and pain forever and ever until you die. Of COURSE I don't want to live like that. Why WOULD I?

It doesn't help that being a real woman has never been in the cards for me. I'm hairy and square-jawed, too. Thinking back, yeah, I was horrified by the idea of having breasts. Now that they're here... whatever. They're no more disgusting than my pot belly or my huge ears or my extra chin or any of the other things I wish I could change. Phantom dick... ok, yeah, I can check that box.

Does it help that I have a screaming horror of surgery? And needles? No. I don't think it does.

Rage against injustice implies you are more upset re: the way women are treated in society vs how you feel inside your skin. Do you feel you belong in your skin? That kind of question. The thing is you started by saying "I'm everybody's b****" kind of implies dislike of social roles and that sort of thing. Of course, it could be that you are just not female, because I don't think most women experience being a woman quite that badly (at least not in 2014). Though how I'd know that, not sure how I'd know that, asking I suppose. That all said someone who is kind of masculine woman can live that way in 2014. Or you can live in androgynously, which is basically how I lived most of my life.

No, by estrogen based system, I mean that a female bodied person's main hormone in their body is estrogen. By taking testosterone, you change to a T based system. Now of course, not all trans people medically transition. Nobody has to take T have surgery or whatever, but I am putting that out there. You are actually adding to the amt. of estrogen in your body taking the pill, so I dont' think you are suppressing estrogen production whatsoever. It suppresses your cycle if you chose to omit the placebo tablets and just keep taking.

The other thing, I wouldn't read what radical feminist say about being trans, because it is totally wrong. Many radical feminist types do not like trans guys and feel we are just women who are f-d up and hate the women's role in society. The reason I didn't like having breasts is they didn't feel like they belonged, vs some kind of idea that they are some kind of patriarchical tool. They aren't a happy lot, I'd say, just off.
I wasn't involved with this sort of feminist, mainly those who worked for equal pay issues and that sort of thing.

--Jay

Quote from: BigMcLargeHuge on January 04, 2015, 12:03:27 PM
Everything you say makes sense, IF I knew what I wanted. Which I don't. I don't know where my rage against injustice begins, and where genuine gender dysphoria begins. I don't know how to even start untangling that mess.

Unfortunately, there is exactly one therapist within a day's drive of my home who is an expert on trans issues, and I can't afford her ($150 a session! That's more than my monthly food budget!).

What is "estrogen-based system" ? Is it like... estrogen blockers? I use hormonal birth control to suppress my cycles (but do I hate them because I'm trans, or because I've been raised by our patriarchal society to view the functions of the female body as inherently filthy and humiliating?). If an estrogen system would do the same thing, then it's something I should research.

Another common question that it might be good to ask yourself is the following:

Suppose that all gendered expectations have been done away with. A female-bodied person can be every bit as free to be masculine, handsome, tough, wear whatever clothes they want, and be taken as seriously and respected socially every bit as much as any cis-guy.

Would you still feel the need to transition? If women could be masculine and treated like men in every respect, would you be okay with being a woman then? Or would you still want to be male-bodied? If it's the later, that's probably a good indicator of being trans. Because it indicates actual discomfort with one's sex rather than just discomfort with the social implications of a sex's gender role.

I know the thing that sealed the deal for me was back when I really did think that my gender issues were just a matter of guys not being "allowed" to do feminine things, I decided to say "to hell with gendered expectations, I'm doing whatever the hell I want, just try and stop me!" And people were okay with that. But I quickly realized that I didn't want to be a guy doing feminine things, I wanted to be a girl doing feminine things. I still hated my body even when I was given the freedom to do anything that I wanted socially. Cue transition.

Carrie Liz has excellent suggestions here.
Yes, I agree that's a good way to look at it.


--Jay

I agree with what Carrie Liz has said.  The social gender dysphoria is one type of gender dysphoria-- it's not all about the body.  For me, social dysphoria/gender role dysphoria was the first thing I recognized in myself (the recognition of my body dysphoria came later).  But I went for years saying "I just want to be treated like a man, because the way women are treated is awful.  All women should get to be treated like men."  Except, of course, most women don't want to be treated like men.  They want to be treated better than they usually are, they want to be treated as equals to men, but they don't want to be treated like men.

I don't know your background, if you've been subjected to an exception amount of gender-based trauma.  If you've been oppressed, discriminated against, subjected to violence, hatred, and contempt because of being female, then it's very possible the degree of social gender dysphoria you experience is a totally appropriate reaction to your circumstances. For me, that was definitely not the case-- I've gotten very lucky, and the amount of sexism and misogyny I've actually experienced is wholly out of proportion to my discomfort with my assigned gender.

So, do you want men and women to be treated equally to one another, generally, or do you want to be treated like a man, specifically?  There's actually a pretty big difference. 

Quote from: BigMcLargeHuge on January 04, 2015, 03:49:03 PM
Everyone should be treated the way they want to be treated. That's not up for discussion. However, I do not understand why anyone would want to be treated like a woman if they had another option. Being a woman is blood and fear and pain forever and ever until you die. Of COURSE I don't want to live like that. Why WOULD I?

It doesn't help that being a real woman has never been in the cards for me. I'm hairy and square-jawed, too. Thinking back, yeah, I was horrified by the idea of having breasts. Now that they're here... whatever. They're no more disgusting than my pot belly or my huge ears or my extra chin or any of the other things I wish I could change. Phantom dick... ok, yeah, I can check that box.

Does it help that I have a screaming horror of surgery? And needles? No. I don't think it does.

From the MtF perspective, we don't see womanhood/femininity as being blood, fear and pain forever. We see it as elegance, grace, beauty and vulnerability. But more importantly we see it as ourselves.

Maybe your own vision for yourself isn't that. A therapist can help you. You mentioned it would cost money. $150 is more than what mine charges but there may be local LGBT charity resources that could avail you of such services for less cost if you qualify income wise.

I was doing some research to track down the phrase that was giving me so much grief. It's this, from the DSM IV:

"This cross-gender identification must not merely be a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex."

But I ALSO found out that the working group for the DSM V has decided to remove that phrase. To wit:

"It has been recommended by the Workgroup to delete the "perceived cultural advantages" proviso. This was also recommended by the DSM-IV Subcommittee on Gender Identity Disorders (Bradley et al., 1991). There is no reason to "impute" one causal explanation for GI at the expense of others (Zucker, 1992, 2009)."

So maybe it doesn't matter anymore. Maybe it never mattered.

Imagine you're trapped alone on a desert island. What do you want to look like? Because for me even if Im the only person who's ever going to see myself for the rest of my life, I need my body to be male. I need to stay on T and get top surgery, even if no one ever sees me again.

I kind of agree with this version, because I do think that trans can't be "primarily" because of perceived gender advantages. What if you don't really "pass" that well? That kind of thing. If that were the case, then you would STILL have the gender disadvantages and the further disadvantages of being read "in between".

OTOH, it's hard to tell if that's just an excuse your brain is giving you, telling yourself, "well of course I want to be male, who would want to be female?" Instead of thinking that in some way your gender is incorrect as female. I think various others gave some good ideas. Note though the "desert island" thing did not work well for my mind. I feel that social aspects are part of gender, but then I don't see myself as "completely" male. I see myself as having aspects of both. I am pretty happy "read" as male. But I am also happy to "tweak" people's perception of what male is.

But I'd say that if that's the ONLY reason, then maybe you need to work on the f'd up society. Focusing anger to changing society is an excellent way of dealing with anger. I think if that's IT, then you might feel more unhappy as male, but for different reasons.

--Jay

Quote from: BigMcLargeHuge on January 06, 2015, 05:01:49 PM
I was doing some research to track down the phrase that was giving me so much grief. It's this, from the DSM IV:

"This cross-gender identification must not merely be a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex."

But I ALSO found out that the working group for the DSM V has decided to remove that phrase. To wit:

"It has been recommended by the Workgroup to delete the "perceived cultural advantages" proviso. This was also recommended by the DSM-IV Subcommittee on Gender Identity Disorders (Bradley et al., 1991). There is no reason to "impute" one causal explanation for GI at the expense of others (Zucker, 1992, 2009)."

So maybe it doesn't matter anymore. Maybe it never mattered.

Yeah... I mean, if I was trapped alone on a deserted island, I'd die. No fun at all.

Having spoken candidly with other (cisgender) men, most men feel that women actually have a lot of the societal advantages nowadays. Actually, almost every time I've been working with all men and we've been alone, the topic comes up in some form or another. Being a guy is not easy at all. I can't comment on whether that's really true or not because I haven't decided myself. There's definitely things, from a purely pragmatic social perspective, that I miss about being female because certain parts of life were easier.

Quote from: birkin on January 06, 2015, 10:51:42 PM
Having spoken candidly with other (cisgender) men, most men feel that women actually have a lot of the societal advantages nowadays

Well. . . that is a common cultural meme.  But if you ask most women, sexism is still alive and well, and most male perceptions of female "advantage" are based on resentment over the erosion of male privilege.  Women are now competing with men for jobs, speaking up when they feel men mistreat them, claiming their own sexual and social agency, and all of this is new.  Not too long ago, men could do pretty much whatever they liked to women without consequence, and barely had to acknowledge women's public existance at all.

That said, I do think women have a lot of advantages-- the freedom to choose a variety of gender expressions and roles is something women have largely claimed for themselves, and men have not yet done so.  In career, family, hobbies, and interests, women are less likely to be looked down on for going outside traditional gender stereotypes than men are.  And, of course, women are on the "right side" of the feminist cultural discourse.  When I pass, I don't look forward to being perceived as a predator by women who I respect in every way as equals.

But, the difficult thing about all these female "advantages" is that they're all a result of the rigid social construction of masculinity.  Women, via feminism, have successfully challenged the social construction of feminity.  Women's rights activists worked hard to construct a version of femininity that wasn't passive, home-bound, gentle and unquestioningly generous.  If men want the advantages they perceive women to have, they need to actively construct a definition of masculinity that isn't violent, competative, homophobic, sexually agressive and unfeeling.  Those cultural characteristics are no more intrinsic to men than being barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen is intrinsic to women-- but men haven't yet successfully built a version of manhood that stands as a counter-example.