Quote from: orangejuice on January 06, 2015, 07:19:41 PM
Ye I think I'm leaving this alone. It's just not worth it. My starting point is too bad. Maybe there is a smalll chance that at some point in the future after years of hormones and if I've somehow managed to save up for extensive surgery that I could look ok enough that I'd be happy walking down the street. But even getting to that point id say would be less than 50/50. A lot less. Given everything I'd be giving up and how completely traumatic coming out would be for me because of the life I've had its not worth it. I'm always going to wish I was a girl and I'm pretty sure transition isn't going to fix that. I can be happy as a guy again. Or at least happy enough.

Hi orangejuice,

just in case you come back and read this.

I understand where you are coming from with this as I've been there myself, and am in some ways I am still there. And I can really relate to the "happy enough" part. The perceived cost is simply not worth it. But the big problems really occur if you get more and more desperate over time. Its a pretty unpleasant place to be, but maybe not really understandable until you get there. The balance changes until no matter the cost and loss there's no choice. Or maybe you'll be more fortunate. No way of knowing for sure I guess, except wait and see.

I'm not at that point myself yet, but I'm on the way. I've made myself quite ill by refusing to move forward, and not just mentally ill, but very serious health problems. So I've moved forward a bit (twice now) and I guess you could say I'm happy enough to stop where I am. Not happy about it though, just enough to not go forward any further. There's a price I don't want to pay right now, and I can get by at this point for a while. I'm not expecting too much, and if it gets worse again I've found there's no fighting it. I'll lose, yet again. And while I'm avoiding this, I'm not living the way I'm pretty sure I'd be happy. I regret more than anything not knowing when I was younger and doing something about it, but that's easy to say in retrospect.

You might want to think about disclosing this to you're partner when it comes to it. Lots of people get into a situation with wife and kids when it all blows up, and its not very fair. There's been some posts about this recently.

Each of us have a different story to tell and we all all unique in making this incredible decision. I was an outstanding alpha male with a T count in the 1000 plus and I always had thiis desire to be female secretly. I was just so good at being a male, and outstanding academic and business success, a world class endurance athlete and representing my country in the Ironman world championships BUT I did NOT know there was an option and I thought this this just a quarky sexual fantasy. Then I found out about TGs, dated one and that was it. The cat was out of the bag and I spoke to a therapist some 6 years ago. Once out there was no going back, this is what I am even thoughit took another 4 years to start HRT. The urge just built up to a point that I was getting almost bi polar. We all have doubts in the process but I am so much at peace now that I shudder distressfully remembering who I was. It only get more difficult and let nature take its course, you will know when its time.

I never wanted male features. My deepest desire has always been to be feminine, but I felt like it was unattainable given my unfortunate genetic mishap. Even as a child, I tried to suppress masculine development and play female games sometimes, but it was with puberty at 14-15 that things really got ugly. I did not know why, but suddenly I was suicidal. I was also cutting unwanted body hair, which I saw as "ugly." I did not want to masculinize, but I did not really see myself as a girl, either. They were so much better than me. I socialized with teachers to pass the time and avoided my peers. I was scared of boys because I was so different and got bullied for it, and I was rude to girls because I was so jealous. Then I graduated high school, and soon reached my darkest depth at 19. I was severely depressed, had more suicidal plans, and also completely avoided social situations and developed a succession of eating disorders. I eventually settled on binging and college courses to ease the pain, but it came right back whenever I ate less for even 2 days. Faced with college failure and gender dysphoria at 22, I again considered dying and actually sought help for gender issues. If only I had done my homework then, and realized that good feminization IS possible with hormonal changes alone, I could have been so beautiful. Life could have been great if I had transitioned. Instead, I simply grew my hair and was perceived as effeminate for that reason. Why transition, if I could have my hair and keep my home? Little did I know, I couldn't have my hair. Most of it was lost over time to DHT poisoning, and the rest has almost all disappeared due to a fungal infection. I often denied I was transgender. In fact, I rarely admitted it, but when I look back at the evidence it is very convincing and goes back to age 5. I will be full of self-hate for the rest of my life, all because I ignored my feelings.

To anyone who is undecided, Please do not make my mistake. My thought is if you have ever had any of these types of feelings, then you are probably transgender. Trying to suppress it might make sense for social or economic reasons in the short term, but it WILL come back, and stronger each time. It is who we are, after all. It won't go away forever. As one ages, the cumulative damage from hormonal imbalance grows, and the potential to induce change diminishes. Perhaps the most common regret is not transitioning sooner.

So ye shock if I'm back here questioning again. I can't make up my mind for two minutes. I make a decision based on logic on and then all it takes is to see one female and I feel it all again and want to cry. Cry because I'm not one but also cry because it feels so hopeless. Its impossible. The logical thing to do is surely the right one not based on some unwanted desire. Its the feelings that I choose against the ones that I don't but they are the ones that always seem to win. Its just to hard to see transition as the right thing to do. But I am scared of the future. I have heard all these stories. But how can it be the right decision?

I mean cons- losing the respect of family. My sisters, I have two, always kinda looked up to me as being the cool brother. I was popular, good at sports and I got attention from girls. In a second my relationship with them would be changed forever. Would they see me as a freak? That would be worst case. Best case they would eventually get it but I'm pretty sure they'd forever feel uncomfortable around me. I like that they see me that way and I'd be sad to ruin it. We get on pretty well, to see all that gone, ruined forever, is that worth giving up? My parents give me all the support I could possibly ask for. I'm close to my Mum in particular. Again it would make me sad to just destroy their whole impression of me. The happy memories that I do have are of being that son that they were proud of. They'd support me, but they are pretty straightforward people, the idea that gender isn't as big a thing  as society leads us to believe I think would be beyond them. They'd never really get it and never really see me as me again. My one remaining grandparent is the best, the nicest guy, but he wouldn't want anything to do with me. He's just of that generation and backward way of thinking.

losing my friends- I have a group of friends I've known since childhood, half of them since primary school. They are all guys. They are all into sports. They are all that type of guy. Only one or two of them MIGHT get it. And anyway even for those ones, the respect and role I have within the group would disappear in a second. This would literally floor them. I mean floor them. And then once they got up off the floor the jokes would be constant, and until I die. Is it worth that? Giving up being able to laugh and joke and enjoy their company as an equal in return for feeling like a weirdo every time I saw them? Because that is how they would make me feel. My best friend has an Uncle or second cousin or something who is transgender. He's disowned by the family and I only know about it because as young as 10 my friend has endured jokes about it, including from me.

the unwanted attention- I'm not hugely popular or anything like that, in fact secretly I haven't made any new real friends since high school, but because of the success I had as an athlete as a teenager and the school I went to, a lot of people in particular circles in my home city know me. And its the same deal as my friends. All the success as a guy, the role I just sort of fell into growing up, no one will expect this from me. Ex-girlfriends, ex team-mates, they will all think I've had some kind of mental breakdown. And it will be the single most shocking thing that people will have heard. It'll get talked about and joked about a lot. I mean I think of all the gossip I've heard about people that I know and this will top it all. It's not as though I'd be able to do it quietly. All that ridicule from people? How can that be worth it? Especially since I'd be giving up a pretty well respected reputation.

my personal circumstance-I'm 25. I've become increasingly uncomfortable, depressed and mostly insecure about having to find my way in life as a 'guy' and everything that people expect of that, but when I'm 'on', when I'm happy enough to walk out the door, that is still the guy I try to be. Its all I know. I keep the fact that I know I react more to the world in a more female way completely hidden. I'm still financially reliant on my parents to my shame. I blew a Law degree and now I have a year and a half left of a degree in English Literature. I'm so lucky that I still have that chance. But I have no clue where I'm going career wise. I can't picture myself being successful at anything because to be honest I am so completely uncomfortable with who I am and do not have a shred of self-esteem. Not exactly a stable place from which to begin transition.

my interest- I love sports. I love team sports. There's no way I can entertain these thoughts for a second while I'm in that guy environment. The culture just doesn't let that happen. I feel so much shame I want to kill myself. But I love the game itself. And I'm good at it. I'm good at a bunch of sports. I'd be giving up that up'

I'd be so alone-I've been successful in the role that life seems to have given me. I've always felt more comfortable around girls, but my insecurities about being around guys socially growing up wasn't really there. That has only been as a young adult and realising  all the dumb stuff about what it means to become a 'man'. Stuff all my friends seem to like but I find embarassing. But the point is as a result growing up I never needed to make female friends. I mean I hung out with girls but only really in groups. Its not as though if I came out I'd suddenly have a bunch of sympathetic people getting in touch. That is really where i feel different to every story I've ever heard. I don't have any arty friends or gay friends or anything like that. Even just friends who don't conform so much to stupid stereotypes. I'd be tearing up the respected image that I have, I'd be seen as a freak by many, and I'd be going into transition completely alone.

the way I look- I'm not going to pass. It's not impossible but its unlikely. I know people don't seem to like discussing the whole passing thing, but it just feels so important to me. I talk about my friends and people who know me. Passing is the difference between, 'have you heard about OJ? He's a woman now its crazy' and 'have you heard about OJ? he lost it walks around in womens clothing its crazy'. Most people have transphobia. Its not their fault. If I could go home to family and look like a girl, they' be more accepting, that is just true. Its not fair but its true.

And then you have the pros- Quieting the constant desire that makes me feel so sad and hopeless. That's pretty much it. Losing all the shame I feel about knowing I'm more like a female deep down, well will that go away if I look in the mirror and still see a guy? And know that others still see a guy?

I'm terrified. All the evidence suggests it won't go away. It's already ruining my life. But look at all the cons versus the pros? How can that be worth it?

I can only talk about my own experiences of course OJ, but for me I had a huge list of cons too, including my own family.  As the dyshoria and general unhappiness increased for me, so the power of those cons lessened. I just picture it as a pair of scales, eventually they'll tip.
Fear is a powerful force and that's what has a grip of you now, fear of losing everything and everyone, fear of ridicule etc. Fear has it's place and can even be useful of course, but it can also stop you living, if you let it.

Only you can decide the outcome of the pro's and con's weigh up, but consider this,  as you progress through life you will gather more 'losable' things, friends, family, work etc.

It's never an easy decision but it's one better made early than late.
Good luck babe

Quote from: alena on January 06, 2015, 04:00:06 PM
I've always wondered if I started a family if that would take my mind off transitioning, the replies here helped answer my question

That made it worse for me, especially since I have two daughters and I get to see what a cis female version of me essentially would be like.

Don't get me wrong, I love my family to pieces. It does however complicate transition.

 
   Please see a therapist, be honest with them and yourself. Don't spend fifty years grieving the girl that never was while trying to be the man you can never be.

It's going to get a lot worse, but then you have the hope of it getting better. All along, nothing is entirely in your hands. Good luck, it's a crazy ride.

I can sense the frustration and unhappiness in your posts, Orangejuice. I can relate to a lot of what you said. I'm still single, but My guess is that those with family will come to a point where they feel that risking their family and 'normal' life is too great a risk, or they just can't deal with being in the wrong body anymore. I wonder if a compromise is possible somehow, but it's not really possible to make everyone happy. The fact that you listed out both your cons and pros in details tells me how much you've thought about this and think about this everyday, but in the end only you can decide, people can only give you advice. 

Hi orangejuice,

you speak of logic, but I think I hear fear speaking instead. I think logic would say you're either transgender or not, and if you are then depending where you are on the spectrum you'll manage to get by without transitioning, or not.

If you're like many others speaking here then logic says, to me at least, that its not a question of choosing if you'll transition or not, the only question is when you do it. If you do get to that point then you'll risk throwing away everything you have and still do it, and there's a good chance that afterwards you'll be happy you did. For those in this situation there's no summing up what you'll lose and logically saying it too much - I guess its not something you can really appreciate yet, and lets hope you never do.

Perhaps logic says you should wait until it gets bad, because maybe it won't. If it does get bad then you'll be a lot worse of because everyone like that regrets not doing something about it earlier, but maybe you'll be lucky. But fear also tells us to wait, and its hard to tell the difference.

I  think logic also suggests that you should see a gender therapist or psychiatrist and try to understand your situation better. I don't really know if you can get an answer out of that, but it seems the best option at this point. I don't know how to explain why, but I found it a great help.

I too thought I had several, very rational reasons to not transition. It never seemed worth it until I started to go bald. Now I know just what I was missing out on all those years, what could have been a beautiful life that I instead spent in despair.

Quote from: orangejuice on January 07, 2015, 07:09:35 PM
I mean cons- losing the respect of family. My sisters, I have two, always kinda looked up to me as being the cool brother. I was popular, good at sports and I got attention from girls. In a second my relationship with them would be changed forever. Would they see me as a freak? That would be worst case. Best case they would eventually get it but I'm pretty sure they'd forever feel uncomfortable around me. I like that they see me that way and I'd be sad to ruin it. We get on pretty well, to see all that gone, ruined forever, is that worth giving up? My parents give me all the support I could possibly ask for. I'm close to my Mum in particular. Again it would make me sad to just destroy their whole impression of me. The happy memories that I do have are of being that son that they were proud of. They'd support me, but they are pretty straightforward people, the idea that gender isn't as big a thing  as society leads us to believe I think would be beyond them. They'd never really get it and never really see me as me again. My one remaining grandparent is the best, the nicest guy, but he wouldn't want anything to do with me. He's just of that generation and backward way of thinking.

I thought my family would hate me and abandon me too, but I was pleasantly surprised. My mother and sister turned out to be supportive, and even my right-wing father who pays most bills prefers not to talk about it; he has not tried to disown me or even really argue much. Family concerns were one of the reasons I hesitated, a decision I will regret all my life. I am still financially dependent on them largely because gender dysphoria (and secondary physiological and mental problems stemming from living in the wrong body) left me un-employable, and it took me 8 years to end up with a 4-year college degree. I can never get a job until I stop the T poisoning, and while I am on HRT already, it does not seem to be helping much.

Quotelosing my friends- I have a group of friends I've known since childhood, half of them since primary school. They are all guys. They are all into sports. They are all that type of guy. Only one or two of them MIGHT get it. And anyway even for those ones, the respect and role I have within the group would disappear in a second. This would literally floor them. I mean floor them. And then once they got up off the floor the jokes would be constant, and until I die. Is it worth that? Giving up being able to laugh and joke and enjoy their company as an equal in return for feeling like a weirdo every time I saw them? Because that is how they would make me feel. My best friend has an Uncle or second cousin or something who is transgender. He's disowned by the family and I only know about it because as young as 10 my friend has endured jokes about it, including from me.

If those guys can't accept your true feelings, are they really friends? You probably would lose them, but being truer to yourself would give you the opportunity to make new friends who understand you better. I have not had a friend since I turned 13, largely because I was unwilling to socialize in a male body with all the false impressions it would invoke; I felt like the person people saw when they looked at me was totally inconsistent with my feminine vision of myself. I have also found that the female hormone makes me feel more like a woman; I lost interest in male activities fairly quickly when I reached a meaningful level, although I am talking about stuff like walking alone - not intensely masculine stuff like hanging out with guys for sports, which I never did anyway.

QuoteAnd it will be the single most shocking thing that people will have heard. It'll get talked about and joked about a lot. I mean I think of all the gossip I've heard about people that I know and this will top it all. It's not as though I'd be able to do it quietly. All that ridicule from people? How can that be worth it? Especially since I'd be giving up a pretty well respected reputation.

The criticism usually goes away after a while. It can be difficult, but if you want to see the rainbow, you may have to tolerate the rain.

QuoteBut the point is as a result growing up I never needed to make female friends. I mean I hung out with girls but only really in groups. Its not as though if I came out I'd suddenly have a bunch of sympathetic people getting in touch. That is really where i feel different to every story I've ever heard. I don't have any arty friends or gay friends or anything like that. Even just friends who don't conform so much to stupid stereotypes. I'd be tearing up the respected image that I have, I'd be seen as a freak by many, and I'd be going into transition completely alone.

I thought I was going it alone too, another reason I waited so long. Then I found a caring therapist, this site, and even unexpected acceptance from female family members - all positive relationships that were totally unexpected when I decided to transition, but very real now.

Quotethe way I look- I'm not going to pass. It's not impossible but its unlikely. I know people don't seem to like discussing the whole passing thing, but it just feels so important to me. I talk about my friends and people who know me. Passing is the difference between, 'have you heard about OJ? He's a woman now its crazy' and 'have you heard about OJ? he lost it walks around in womens clothing its crazy'. Most people have transphobia. Its not their fault. If I could go home to family and look like a girl, they' be more accepting, that is just true. Its not fair but its true.

Like me a few years ago, you seem to underestimate the power of hormones. The body really does change over even just a few months when taking Estrogen and blocking testosterone. Most people here who transition in their 20s become very passable, even if they started out quite masculine. The prospects for passing do however diminish with age. The longer one waits, the harder it gets.

QuoteAnd then you have the pros- Quieting the constant desire that makes me feel so sad and hopeless. That's pretty much it. Losing all the shame I feel about knowing I'm more like a female deep down, well will that go away if I look in the mirror and still see a guy? And know that others still see a guy?

I saw a guy in the mirror in July and it broke my heart. Now after several months of HRT, I see something different and it actually cheers me up instead of bringing me down, and I am older than you are. There are also many other ways to feminize one's appearance that you just won't know about as long as you try to live as male. I learn more every month.

It gets stronger for sure. I started cross dressing around the age of 10 or so( Im 42 now)in secret of course. And been hiding it ever sence. Every single day every hour the thought of wanting to be a women is killing me. I came out to my wife one month ago and it's been up and down but that's another story. I started seeing a therapist one month ago cause I had to tell someone that would not judge me. I have tried to suppress the thoughts my whole life by racing bmx and motocross and other extreme sports.But even during a race the thoughts are still there. Im also in the Army (11B) with deployments and never feared death, i hate my self anyways right. I'm married with three boys and I am so scared of losing my family if I transition but I don't know how long I can suppress the women inside.

I am one more person who can testify to dysphoria being progressive and persistent through life.  I will be 64 next March.  Like so many here I knew as a kid I was different and actually believed I would magically become a girl and mom until puberty crushed that idea.  Then I tried periodically to be like the man people expected with a kind of overcompensation many of us can relate to.  I have been materially successful with a great career and enjoyed a very full social life.  I was happy plenty but anxiety and fear about my intimate life and sense of self eventually become crippling.  'She' became my shadow but never left until i could set myself free.  Being transgender before and after transition doesn't mean it has to dominate our lives.  i threw myself into community activism which i still love.  I am also one who feels she has gained far far more than I have lost.  Sure it is a challenge and most worthwhile achievements are.  I would say that it gets better with age as we have had opportunities to develop some coping skills and answer other fundamental life questions.  Trans or not we still have people to meet, a mouth to feed and roof to maintain eh?

I can only imagine how different life might have been if a forum like this with so many knowledgable and experienced contributors was available in my youth.  You are priceless people and this community support saves and changes lives.

The wavering and wondering are part of the journey OJ.  Thanks for the question and your thoughtful responses.

Like Bailey Jay said, your desire to transition isn't going away. Tick tock, tick tock.

( true )* infinity

I'll add to the pile up...

Did the dysphoria get worse? Probably no. What got worse... Waaaay Worse, were all the other problems of not handling the dysphoria led to. They led to having to really do something about it rather then continuing telling myself "It aint all that bad"

In my early 20's I twice experimented with transitioning. Both times stopping to be a "Normal(ish)" male. At 6ft tall, balding fast, big boned, deep voice, big feet and hands in a world of 5'5" women my age any thoughts of passing was fantasy. I learned as a kid standing out was not a good thing. I wasn't going to volunteer for a lifetime of it if it could be avoided.

So instead I threw my energy into another passion, electronics. I had a job that was more like getting paid to have fun. Over time I became quite good to great at it. Traveled the world to see key customers, design a bunch of cool award winning medical products. Been involved with all manner of crazy leading edge BIG physics research machines. Any outside observer would say I was doing great. I felt nothing. All diversions and distractions to help feed my denial. All the accomplishments meant nothing. It wasn't the real me, the complete me.

Then finally the excrement hit the air handler. At 50+ and the peak of my career as VP of Engineering most of that world disappeared in an instant. Suddenly I was working several states away at a mindless job. A very shakey long distance marriage to a semi-invalid semi-suicidal wife.  No longer the super hero engineer. Just another chipped cog in the industrial military complex. I suddenly found myself with way too much free time. Then came the way too much dysphoria, worse then ever before, or since.

I needed to do something different. I made changes. Got into touch with my true self. I knew I needed to bring those two great and important aspects of myself together into one whole, healthy, and happy person. Some 5-6 years latter I think I am about there. I still present and live as a male. My wife is not thrilled about some of the things I needed to do to manage the dysphoria, but is very pleased with the results of the new me.

Nobody sane wants to be trans. Having to transition to full-time is no easy undertaking. Luckily I have not (yet) reached the "Have to" point. I would love to mainly to feel 100% genuine. I'd settle for a bit less then 100% while I can. Sure beats the 0% I was running for over 30 years. There are other more important things in my life that need to be addressed before I can consider it.

For all I've learned in my meager 20 years of existence, I've come to understand that anything you try to repress will keep coming back, and probably stronger each time. It's also a basic fact of psychology. That's pretty much the reason I don't want to push my own feelings aside, because I know they'll come back. My whole questioning journey actually started a few months back when a repressed memory resurfaced, and suddenly everything started making sense. I wouldn't wanna end up doing that to myself again.

It seems to get worse with each passing day for me. I think physical appearance has something to do with it.

I didn't have dysphoria this bad when I was 16 or 14.

As my secondary male characteristics become more 'prominent' with age, it makes it harder and harder for me to connect with my inner self. The disconnect between my inner self and my outer shell is worse now than it was a few years ago, and it looks like it will keep getting worse, but that's just how my dysphoria manifests itself in me. Some don't feel as strongly about their bodies, but they have dysphoria in other ways.

It certainly does not get better.

Quote from: Cin on February 03, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
It seems to get worse with each passing day for me. I think physical appearance has something to do with it.

I didn't have dysphoria this bad when I was 16 or 14.

As my secondary male characteristics become more 'prominent' with age, it makes it harder and harder for me to connect with my inner self. The disconnect between my inner self and my outer shell is worse now than it was a few years ago, and it looks like it will keep getting worse, but that's just how my dysphoria manifests itself in me. Some don't feel as strongly about their bodies, but they have dysphoria in other ways.

I agree wholeheartedly with what you said, and that is why I think people should transition as soon as they know they are trans. When living with the wrong hormones, the body is constantly under assault from the inside, and the damage is cumulative over time.

Although male puberty did make me suicidal at 14-15, I got over it when I realized I did not look like a man anyway. When I was in high school, I could live with being 'male' because my features were so neutral and maintaining a borderline low weight prevented male development. Indeed, I was so neutral-looking at 19 (small frame, even had temporary breast growth for a month) that I wondered if I even was fully male. Still, I was depressed and suicidal again because I could not feminize. Weight gain at 19-20 caused masculinization, but that stopped when I eliminated cheese from my diet (saturated fat raises testosterone) and lost a few pounds. At 22, even though my features were still fairly neutral, I again wanted to die because I felt no hope of ever living as female. If I had transitioned then, I would have been a beautiful woman by now. Instead, I escaped to my studies, outdoor activity, and binge eating, gaining weight and going bald in the process. It was not until I was 27 and less than one year away from total baldness that I finally realized 'mind over matter' was not working, and decided I was "better dead than bald." The sudden sense of urgency brought me to gender therapy with intent to transition. I might still be able to pass if I lose weight, remove my facial hair, practice my voice, and get a wig, but it would be so difficult, and I am not sure I want to try - especially with regard to the fake body parts.

The moral here is that my transgender feelings never went away, and my dysphoria only became worse as testosterone continued to ruin my body. By transitioning sooner, I could have slayed the beast of dysphoria. Now it will haunt me forever. All because I missed my 'window of opportunity' to feminize. No one should have to suffer that fate.