Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 10, 2015, 02:18:29 PM
I'd like to add another possibility here. Since I'm really interested in exactly what causes people to pick up these "vibes" from people, here's something else that might be involved in it.
Me too. I've been trying to figure it out for years now.
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So I do suspect that a lot of this has nothing at all to do with whether someone is actually behaving the same as a woman would behave or not, it's just a matter of gender confirmation bias, where a cis-woman saying the EXACT same things that a trans woman might say is automatically deemed to be less threatening and more calm just because she's more feminine in appearance and voice... smaller frame, shorter limbs, more rounded face, higher vocal resonance where her voice is clearly unchanged, etc. Someone who looks and sounds completely female would not have her femininity belittled for saying these things and acting this way, where it's very easy to look at a trans woman and say that it's her old "male side" still back there which hasn't gone away yet, and judge her behaviors as "mannish."
I suspect you're right about confirmation bias. But I also suspect it goes both ways. Yes, the fact that people see a person with a deeper voice and larger stature and longer limbs doing something may nudge the observer to gender the behavior in a masculine way. But it is also true that a person who badly wants to see something in themselves may miss the contradictory evidence, which may lead a person to see themselves as expressing femininity when they are actually sending off the OP's "masculine vibe."
So let me get specific about the kind of thing I'm talking about. Here are three specific examples of what I mean:
EXAMPLE #1:
I was sitting at the Green Turtle. Three people present. Me, a ciswoman, and a trans woman who has been full time for at least 4-5 years.
Waitress: So can I take your order?
Trans woman: Well, I'm a double D but I'll have the triple-D burger.
[later]
Me: oh, I really do need to lose some weight. I feel big. But it's hard when you're life is like mine.
Trans Woman: Oh. No don't lose weight 'cause your boobs'll shrink!
EXAMPLE #2:
At the annual Trans*Unity Picnic. I'm the head of Trans*Unity, so it's my group's event and I was doing my thing of circulating to say hello to everyone, make sure everyone was having a good time, etc.
Me: (walks outside and sits down at a picnic table with a group of about five people)
Trans woman: (takes my hand in both of hers) Oh hello, baby.
Me: (takes hand back)
Trans woman: (takes my hand again and starts to stroke it) Oh no, don't pull away. I love you, honey. No, no, don't pull away.
Me: (takes hand back again, gets up and walks away)
I later sent her an email from a good distance away telling her that this and the whole series of interactions between us were making me and others think she was hitting on me, that I was not interested, and it was starting to get the point where I was actually starting to feel scared because of it.
EXAMPLE #3:
I was at a trans group meeting just a couple of months ago. I, trans woman #1, and trans woman #2 arrive at the door at the same time.
Trans woman #1: (opens the door, motions me and trans woman #2 to go through) After you, ladies.
Trans woman #2: (motioning to me to go through) After you.
Me: (walks in the door, through the hall, and up the stairs to where the group is meeting. All the sofas and chairs were taken, so I looked around for a folding chair).
Trans woman #3: (jumps up out of her seat, goes over to where the chairs are stacked, takes one down, sets it up) There you are!
Me: thank you.
[The meeting happens. I sit there until the end.]
Me: (stands up, folds the chair, picks it up and starts to take it back to the stack it came from)
Trans woman #4: (stands up, comes over to me, takes the chair away from me and puts it back on the stack)
Now, any of these examples could have involved a cis woman as the other person. But it would have been pretty unusual and seemed very strange. Especially example #4, which involves four different people in the space of two hours. Women just don't usually behave that way toward one another. Not that it never happens, but it's odd.
On the other hand, this type of behavior is very, very, very common by men toward women.
And most of the trans women involved in these stories were transitioned for at least several years.
So I guess I could read it as a group of very strangely behaved women whose actions left me confused and bewildered. Or I could say the behavior in these situations gave off a very male vibe. Either statement would be true. It's the gender based expectations that make it so strange.
Quote from: Hikari on January 10, 2015, 02:18:29 PM
I don't have a great deal of expierence with support groups or even that many other transpeople but, I have to wonder if ITT there have been some rather unreasonable judgements. With being kind for example thrown out a femme trait, which makes me very confused I have met plenty of women who were unkind and plenty of men who were kind, so this tells me it has more to do with the perceptions of people ITT than gender. I am not a terribly kind person, I am selfish, manipulative, and egocentric and I don't think that makes me any less of a woman, even if that means I am not living up to some stereotype....I very much hate the idea that a sterotype would be used to judge or define me, and it is this that pushes me more and more away from the LGBT community, there is so much judgement from within it.
I don't know what ITT is. But I do agree with you about the idea of kindness being a feminine trait. It's an example of what I mean about people not knowing much about women . . . Women can be extremely vicious.
But as for judgment, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with having the "male vibe." In fact, I hope I'm saying that absolutely nothing is wrong about it. But I do wish people would just be honest and admit that very often something is there.
Heavens, even in me. Talking about me being male socialized is usually a good way to get groups of people laughing. But apply some pressure to me and watch how I break bad . . . You will see some guy type traits emerge. Loudly and with much profanity.