One of the reasons I started going to TG support groups was to get an idea of what being a trans woman might look like in real life.  I've been on Susan's for over a year, but as anyone who has done on-line dating has discovered, what you see in the flesh isn't always what the on line version led you to expect.

Anyway, I've seen maybe one or two dozen trans women and a half-dozen trans men (our local group is co-ed, the one in NYC is segregated.)  They're mostly pretty nice people.  But I've noticed that I get certain "vibes" from the trans women that are awfully reminiscent of the vibes I get from cis men, and those vibes are the reason (or maybe a large part of the reason) why I don't want anything to do with being male.  The trans men I know give off vibes that are reminiscent of the vibes I get from many cis women that are the reason I feel comfortable with women and not with men.  If I were going to spend an evening with either the trans women I know or the trans men I know, I'd definitely prefer the trans men.

I've spent the day trying to define those "vibes," and haven't gotten anything that really satisfies me.  The words and phrases that I've come up with that dance around the feeling are: soft; gentle; kind; tender; concerned with other people's feelings; motherly.  They are also the words that I would wish would describe me, though I suspect there's a lot of wishful thinking there.

Anyway, after thinking this, I started wondering: what exactly is it that I would like to become by transitioning (assuming I go for it)?  If I end up being someone exuding and living with those vibes, my impulse would be to think that it wasn't worth the bother.  Maybe what I need is a very different kind of "transition," not that I have any clue what that would be.  Or maybe what I long for, deep inside where I can't really know exactly what it is, is something I can never get anywhere near except in daydreams.

On another board, someone asked people how they saw themselves inside.  I envisioned myself as a tall, thin, somewhat awkward girl with long hair and glasses, in a loose yellow calf-length dress, who tends to stay quietly on the periphery of groups and pefers to deal with people one-on-one, likes petting kittens and holding babies, and who kind of notices and wants to notice people who need a little extra attention or support, or maybe just a little kindness.  I don't know that that's who I actually am -- in real life, I think I'm more of a blundering, insensitive loudmouth -- but that's who I wish I were.  (I also wish I were easier on the eyes, but that's another story.)

Quote from: Asche on January 07, 2015, 06:51:37 PM
But I've noticed that I get certain "vibes" from the trans women that are awfully reminiscent of the vibes I get from cis men, and those vibes are the reason (or maybe a large part of the reason) why I don't want anything to do with being male.  The trans men I know give off vibes that are reminiscent of the vibes I get from many cis women that are the reason I feel comfortable with women and not with men.

At the risk of getting flamed, I need wholeheartedly to agree with you.

I once went to a picnic for trans people and allies. I talked to about a half dozen trans women. None of them, not one, asked me anything about myself. In each case they spent the entire conversation talking about themselves. I also talked to a handful of cis women. They were willing to talk about themselves, yes, but they also were all curious about me.

Of course no generalization fits everyone, but I've seen this an awful lot.

For my own transition, I've really tried hard to distance myself from that reality. I aspire to the sort of femininity you describe. "soft; gentle; kind; tender; concerned with other people's feelings; motherly" sums it up pretty well.

Am I there? Sometimes. When I watch myself carefully. Other times I can be selfish and monopolize the conversation, trampling other people's feelings.

But I'm trying. For me, "Woman Wannabe" that accompanies all my posts, is more than just a gender identity. It's an aspiration, a statement of values, a vision of the ideal person I'd like to be. Maybe some day.

But, Asche, none of us are the person we'd like to be all the time. That's the way we grow, right? By wanting to be a different person from the one we are. By articulating, just like you have, how we would like to be.

And there's one more, very important ingredient: Being gentle with yourself. Realizing that achieving femininity is hard, especially when you've been socialized your whole life to be male, when you've been burdened with an XY genetic configuration and the body structure and chemistry that goes with it, and when large portions of your brain are structured the way male brains are, your gender identity notwithstanding. Give yourself credit for every inch of growth, every single time you coo over a kitten or a baby, every single time you notice someone who needs extra attention, support, or kindness, every time you find yourself moving away from insensitive loudmouthdom.

True transition, from masculinity to femininity can't be achieved by hormones, SRS, electrolysis, etc. It can only be achieved one tiny step at a time.

Keep taking those steps. You'll get there.

Quote from: Asche on January 07, 2015, 06:51:37 PM
.But I've noticed that I get certain "vibes" from the trans women that are awfully reminiscent of the vibes I get from cis men, and those vibes are the reason (or maybe a large part of the reason) why I don't want anything to do with being male.  The trans men I know give off vibes that are reminiscent of the vibes I get from many cis women that are the reason I feel comfortable with women and not with men.

I agree with you.  May I share a story?

Pre-transition, I went to a workplace happy hour with a very good friend who also happened to be a co-worker.  She got nabbed by someone who wanted to talk sports.  I don't like sports so I made sure she was okay and then wandered off to find someone else to talk to.  The first group I came on was a group of about four guys.  They were talking about hijinks they got into as kids and childhood hobbies and mischief.  I had no similar experiences. I could not understand the conversation.  It really, truly might as well have been Swahili.  I stood there for about ten minutes saying nothing except to shrug my shoulders and say "no idea" whenever they turned to me and said "how 'bout you?"  No matter how hard I tried, I just couldn't connect to them or even speak the same language.  And that hurt.  Especially since they expected me to understand the rules of how their interaction worked and be able to participate. 

So then I wandered off again and came upon two female co-workers.  I joined them and it was great.  They were talking about movies and books.  We had similar tastes.  I left having given a recommendation to see the movie Stardust and having been advised to read the Game of Thrones books.  We spoke the same language.  We had the same frame of reference.  It was awesome.  But I was still seen as an outsider.  And that space could never be my home.

I cried over that single instance for about three days.  And incidents like this are the single biggest reason I transitioned.

But when I transitioned, I discovered that the interaction with transwomen would be very much the same as that interaction with my male co-workers.  They expect me to know the rules of the interaction and be able to join in and have that same frame of reference.  And no matter how hard I try, I just can't.  I was recruited into an eight week trans* leadership academy here in Maryland.  By the second day, I was in constant tears because it hurt so bad. 

And with trans men, much the same happens as with my two female co-workers.  The language is similar, the frame of reference is the same, and the interests and experiences match up a lot better.  But I am liking them for the thing that they seem to most want to get away from.  The "girl" parts of themselves.  So it doesn't work very well.  And they often have an "ewwww, you're a girl" reaction to me.

It's made it very hard to really socialize with trans* people.  About a year and a half ago, I had the experience of sitting and listening to a trans woman telling boob jokes and I had another one take my hand.  When I pulled my hand away, she took it back again, called me "baby," told me not to pull away, and while caressing my hand, told me she loved me.  Yes, using the words "I love you."  After those two incidents I've pretty much given up.   It's just too awkward, and I just can't understand what's going on, and so I make myself a rare attendee on the trans* social scene.  And there are tons and tons of these stories.

Quote from: Asche on January 07, 2015, 06:51:37 PMIf I were going to spend an evening with either the trans women I know or the trans men I know, I'd definitely prefer the trans men.

Me too.  But there's always that "ewww, you're a girl" problem and the problem of what happens when you appreciate something about a person that they don't like about themselves. 

Quote from: Asche on January 07, 2015, 06:51:37 PM
I've spent the day trying to define those "vibes," and haven't gotten anything that really satisfies me.  The words and phrases that I've come up with that dance around the feeling are: soft; gentle; kind; tender; concerned with other people's feelings; motherly.  They are also the words that I would wish would describe me, though I suspect there's a lot of wishful thinking there.

I've spent a lot of time trying to define it too.  So far the best I can say is that it's about taking up space.  If you're socialized male (like most, but not all, trans women) then you're taught to take up all the space, both physically and metaphorically.  So you charge in, crowd out others, don't consider them at all.  Women are taught to be interested in and nuturing toward others.  If you are raised as a girl, then usually you are taught to make room for others.  When you transition, old habits die hard.

I suspect the wishing is pretty common.  I see two ways of dealing with it.  One is to do as Suzi suggests:

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 07, 2015, 08:05:25 PM
For my own transition, I've really tried hard to distance myself from that reality. I aspire to the sort of femininity you describe. "soft; gentle; kind; tender; concerned with other people's feelings; motherly" sums it up pretty well.

Am I there? Sometimes. When I watch myself carefully. Other times I can be selfish and monopolize the conversation, trampling other people's feelings.

But I'm trying. For me, "Woman Wannabe" that accompanies all my posts, is more than just a gender identity. It's an aspiration, a statement of values, a vision of the ideal person I'd like to be. Maybe some day.

I needed authenticity.  For me, that meant never again having to think about my manner, my speech patterns, etc. 

So I took a different path.  I decided that I would study absolutely nothing about movement, speech patterns, optics, etc.  I decided to accept no advice--none, not one iota--related to transition from a trans woman.  I just decided that for better or worse, I would be who and what I am.  I did not know whether that would give me a girl vibe or a guy vibe that I'd give off or what it would mean for me.  But it's worked out well.  For the first time in my life, I can relax and just be.  And whatever you may feel about me, I am very real.  And if I feel like cooing at a baby, I will.  And if I'm feeling grumpy that day, I won't. 

But I will say one thing about those who give off a "cis male vibe," or who are otherwise highly nonconforming.  A nonconforming person has to have a lot of courage.  Because it is they who take the brunt of all the bad stuff that happens to trans* people.  So I think they are deserving of respect.  And just because a person may give off a vibe that you or I might not want is no reason for their identities to be deemed any less worthy of respect.  I'm not saying you are doing so.  I just feel like in a thread like this, someone needs to stand up for respecting all the most nonconforming among us.

But the best possible advice is probably this:

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 07, 2015, 08:05:25 PM
And there's one more, very important ingredient: Being gentle with yourself.

Don't judge yourself too harshly.  You're out there doing the best you can to be the best you can.  Just like everyone else. 

True true . I have seen this and experienced, but I have to admit that there are people who are good natural listeners and then there are those who aren't (but women in general tend to be better listeners than guys). We do not have any local TS/TG support groups or community as such, but there have been a couple of TG-themed events which attract certain crowd. So I had the honour to meet in person some local "celebrities" and just like Asche said, the impression in RL was quite different.  A couple of examples which I remember was when one elderly transwoman pretty much trampled into our quiet conversation with guest speaker (a transman from Belgium, well known European TG expert - and I have to say, I had met him in private before, he was the first transman I had ever met and we had wonderful three hours of on-going mutually respectful conversation). So that transwoman got into our talk, moved very closely into my private space and started to ask quite private and insensitive questions. I dont really get intimiated much, especially by lady-folk, but somehow it really felt very pushy and discomforting. I was trying to reason myself internally that she is probably the oldest MtF in the country, has been discriminated and harrassed a lot, besides I should respect her only because of her age and life experience, but could not. She was loud, rude and annoying and I just wanted to be somewhere else.

Still, I have to agree with suzi, that watching yourself can be helpful at times. Some things are eased up by HRT itself, but some social conditioning needs to be un-conditioned . I have learned a lot by watching other women interact with each other and guys, reading about differences in social skills between genders and trying out what works and what does not for me. Have to admit, I used to be a person who would interrupt conversation to make the point heard - I dont do that anymore, or if I must, I do it differently. Listening to what other people say is very fun experience too (unless You have to multitask X other tasks at the same time - then it can create awkward situations) - people in general like to talk about themselves (both women and men, actually), so simply listening to them, picking up clues can give You extra threads for further questions so You keep asking and they keep talking and imparting useful information .

Finally, as far as typical "male" and "female" modus operandi during conversation, I found that - at least for someone who was born and socialised for several decades in another role - it is harder to make total switch, but maybe some adjustments could be made (especially from non-binary point of view). For non-binary MtF (or MtA) presenting as female or female leaning andro I would call it the "approach of needlepoint pillow". Being nice, gentle, soft and attentive on the surface, but if someone gets too close that it becomes uncomfortable or tries to squeeze or push You around, then that person is going to feel needles .

If we're being honest, I think this is possibly a matter of what people's work/social lives are like, and the socialization they're subjected to in that work/social life.

And, well, look at who attends support groups and the like.

I've found that the longer people are full-time, and the longer they are around their identity gender, seen as a member of their identity gender, and thus subjected to all of the social expectations that come with it, the more they become like that identity gender. I think passing plays a part too.

Trans support groups are very often populated by people who are early in transition, and thus haven't really had a chance to be exposed to the social expectations of their identity gender, and thus haven't picked up the mannerisms and the social "rules" yet, so they're still acting on the instinctual learned behaviors of their birth sex. Trans spaces are also very often populated by people who spend significant amount of times in these trans-specific spaces, and thus don't really have a chance to get out into the wide world and just be treated as a normal member of their birth sex.

I also suspect that passing plays a part in it, because someone who's seen as trans rather than cis will probably not be subjected to the same expectations about parenting, sports, heteronormative assumptions about romance and life aspirations, and other things.

I very often noticed when I first started my new job (which was my first ever post-transition job,) that I was VERY defensive behaviorally. I was standoffish, I stood in a very defensive "don't intrude on my space" manner, and it was this rigidity and the social closed-offness that I believe made me come across as more "male." I noticed how open the women were... how much they were unafraid of bearing their emotions, how much they were unafraid of physical contact and gentle touches and welcoming hand gestures, and how relaxed and at ease they seemed to be, where the guys were all in this defensive "alpha male" stance which gave off an "I own this space" kind of vibe. And I was definitely acting more like the guys.

After months and months and months of being around the other women at work, though, and being subjected to all of the expectations that come with it, I really noticed that I was starting to pick up on the feminine mannerisms. And slowly, as time has gone on, people have been more open with me in turn. I've been called "sweetheart" more often, people smile at me like they smile at women more, and other things. And I still screw up a lot. I still don't like that I tend to write on and on and on with this automatic "I deserve to be heard" attitude while those born female are a bit more "this is just my personal opinion," and their writing is more simple rather than descriptive. But really, I think as long as you realize what you're doing, and when you're subjected to a certain socialization over and over again, and when you make a conscious effort to change something when you notice it's a bit too much like your birth sex, eventually it starts to sink in, and becomes second nature over time.

And it's not necessarily a trans thing, or anything to do with how you're innately wired. It's just ingrained behaviors based on socialization coupled with how you internalize that socialization due to how you see yourself.

Also, and I know this might be hard to accept, but:

No matter how much we wish we could be cis, we never will be. No matter how much we wish we could have been raised as our identity gender, no matter how much we wish we could have been subjected to that gender's socialization since birth and thus have perfectly-gender-conforming behavior come naturally, and as much as we wish our bodies could be completely indistinguishable from someone of that identity gender, it never will. We can come close. We can approximate it. Through effort and training and being seen as that sex for long enough, we learn, and a lot of us can take that far enough that any layperson would never know that we weren't cis. But in the end, we're still trans.

And a big part of reaching a point of personal peace is just accepting that. The part of you that might criticize trans women for not being "female enough," or trans men for not being "male enough" in terms of their natural behavior, that's just societal cissexism talking... the cultural notion that unless one conforms to a standard of cis-normality, they are somehow lesser.

Don't let it get to you. Even if our behavior doesn't conform, even if there always will be differences that we can't overwrite, we still have a right to be who we are, and be accepted for that. Don't ever doubt it.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 09, 2015, 04:31:11 AM
I also suspect that passing plays a part in it, because someone who's seen as trans rather than cis will probably not be subjected to the same expectations about parenting, sports, heteronormative assumptions about romance and life aspirations, and other things.

Really interesting observation. I hadn't thought about that, but it really makes sense.

While we identify as being a particular gender most of us were not raised or socialised within that gender context. It can be hard to acquire certain gendered traits coming to them later in life, largely because they are probably invisible to us unless they're pointed out. Depending on how one socialises during transition these traits can still be absorbed to varying degrees.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 09, 2015, 04:31:11 AM
If we're being honest, I think this is possibly a matter of what people's work/social lives are like, and the socialization they're subjected to in that work/social life.

And, well, look at who attends support groups and the like.

I've found that the longer people are full-time, and the longer they are around their identity gender, seen as a member of their identity gender, and thus subjected to all of the social expectations that come with it, the more they become like that identity gender. I think passing plays a part too.

I think the passing thing plays a role, but honestly I see it as a bit of a chicken & egg problem.  Behavioral cues are a big part of passing.  So does a person pick up on behavior because they pass (and are subject to expectations matching the role) or does one pass because they picked up on how to behave?  I'm not sure. 

But I have not observed this phenomenon to be related to how long ago a person transitioned.  I see an awful lot of trans women who transitioned 10 or 20 years ago who still have a super strong male vibe. 

I think this is where that article by psychologist Anne Vitale that I posted in some other thread (I'll find it again if anyone is interested) comes in.  She posits that there are two broad, general categories of trans women.  There is group one (G1) consisting of people whose brains had minimal or no masculinization, leaving the default female identity intact.  There is group three (G3) consisting of people whose brains were partly masculinized, leaving a female gender identity that has been damaged, so to speak.  She points out that the folks in G1 tend to transition quickly and easily because they are able to just click right into place.  Folks in G3, on the other hand, tend to have a much harder time because their brains (and therefore their identities) tend to have certain strong masculine elements that did develop.  It bears noting that she is proposing a hypothesis, not describing well grounded research, but it sounds a lot like what we're talking about here . . . .

So I suppose the obvious question is what can (or should) a person do about it?  Especially if they happen to be in G3?

Well . . . I am never a big fan of "should" in discussions about transition.  I don't think there's any requirement to do anything in particular.  So if a person has a strong masculine component or vibe, then I don't think there's any requirement to do anything in particular.  So walk with head held high.  I just wish people who have that strong vibe would be a little more honest about it.

But in the real world we all live in, those mismatched vibes can have very negative consequences, so it may be desirable to do something to change them.  If I a person wishes to do so, I'm not sure I know a great option.  The usual advice seems to be to practice imitating women.  And there seems to be a list of behaviors, most of them horribly stereotyped.  For example, I read something somewhere about someone saying to be sure to coo at babies.  There are quite a lot of women who don't.

I am not a fan of listing out behaviors to imitate for two reasons:  (1) it has always seemed to me that doing this leads to doing an imitation and putting on an act rather than leading an authentic life and (2) most people raised male tend to have very odd ideas about women, so the result is lots of strange stereotypes that don't seem to match up very well with real life.  Since the stereotypes don't match real life, it doesn't seem to help very much.

Unfortunately, I don't have any good solutions for this one.  My best advice is something that has not been received well:  befriend and hang out with cis women.  It's not about who is "more" or "less" of a woman.  It's about exactly what Carrie Liz is pointing out:

Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 09, 2015, 04:31:11 AM
After months and months and months of being around the other women at work, though, and being subjected to all of the expectations that come with it, I really noticed that I was starting to pick up on the feminine mannerisms. And slowly, as time has gone on, people have been more open with me in turn. I've been called "sweetheart" more often, people smile at me like they smile at women more, and other things. And I still screw up a lot. I still don't like that I tend to write on and on and on with this automatic "I deserve to be heard" attitude while those born female are a bit more "this is just my personal opinion," and their writing is more simple rather than descriptive. But really, I think as long as you realize what you're doing, and when you're subjected to a certain socialization over and over again, and when you make a conscious effort to change something when you notice it's a bit too much like your birth sex, eventually it starts to sink in, and becomes second nature over time.

In other words, hopefully things rub off on a person who spends time among women in the way the person hopes they will. 

Unfortunately, when I have given this advice to people in the past, there have been some strange reactions.  For example, I've been asked "Oh my gosh, but what if I'm attracted to them??"  And I've noticed that there seems to be a very strange aversion to learning about women from cis women.  I'm not quite sure why that would be and I will refrain from voicing a guess. 

And as already pointed out, there are a lot of folks who transitioned long ago who still have that vibe.  So the "rubbing off" is far from certain.

Alas, it would be a lot easier to change something that was concrete and more readily defined.  It's hard to change something as vague as a "vibe."

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 09, 2015, 10:11:14 PM
But I have not observed this phenomenon to be related to how long ago a person transitioned.  I see an awful lot of trans women who transitioned 10 or 20 years ago who still have a super strong male vibe. 

I think this is where that article by psychologist Anne Vitale that I posted in some other thread (I'll find it again if anyone is interested) comes in.  She posits that there are two broad, general categories of trans women.  There is group one (G1) consisting of people whose brains had minimal or no masculinization, leaving the default female identity intact.  There is group three (G3) consisting of people whose brains were partly masculinized, leaving a female gender identity that has been damaged, so to speak.  She points out that the folks in G1 tend to transition quickly and easily because they are able to just click right into place.  Folks in G3, on the other hand, tend to have a much harder time because their brains (and therefore their identities) tend to have certain strong masculine elements that did develop.  It bears noting that she is proposing a hypothesis, not describing well grounded research, but it sounds a lot like what we're talking about here . . . .

So I suppose the obvious question is what can (or should) a person do about it?  Especially if they happen to be in G3?

...

Unfortunately, when I have given this advice to people in the past, there have been some strange reactions.  For example, I've been asked "Oh my gosh, but what if I'm attracted to them??"  And I've noticed that there seems to be a very strange aversion to learning about women from cis women.  I'm not quite sure why that would be and I will refrain from voicing a guess. 

And as already pointed out, there are a lot of folks who transitioned long ago who still have that vibe.  So the "rubbing off" is far from certain.

Alas, it would be a lot easier to change something that was concrete and more readily defined.  It's hard to change something as vague as a "vibe."

To be honest, I really don't know whether the "vibe" is ingrained or not. It's once again kind of a chicken-and-egg thing, where because people look a certain way people treat them a certain way which reinforces certain behaviors which makes the "vibe" even stronger. So I don't know. Maybe it's one of those cases where it's a little bit of both? Part socialization and part genetics?

I believe I read a study which showed that IQ has a 40% heritability rate in childhood, but an 80% heritability rate by the time those same children reached adulthood. So that definitely reinforces that there's a genetic component to it, but also clearly shows the role that socialization plays... children born to intelligent parents become more intelligent regardless of their birth IQ the more time they spend around them, and vice versa. Perhaps gender traits are the same way. That yes, part of it is just a matter of genetics and hormone exposure and "partial masculinization" of the brain as you spoke of, but I definitely think socialization plays a big part in it too.


Also, pfft... seriously? There are seriously trans women who are afraid of being in groups of cis women? And think that they shouldn't learn feminine behaviors from them? How the hell do you think cis-women learned their femininity in the first place? That's like the #1 trying time in every girl's life is in the "judgment" phase of middle and high school where you have to either learn to act like a girl or have the "gender police" all over you trying to shame you for not being "girl enough." You don't want to know how many girls I saw in middle school who used to be completely tomboyish and gender-nonconforming as kids all of a sudden instantly turn into girly-girls because that's what the gender police demanded that they do. Same with me. This is why I had such a hard time transitioning from childhood to teenage years, because suddenly my gender-nonconformity wasn't socially acceptable anymore, guys had to be tough and masculine or else, so I got teased MUCH more, and started experiencing social dysphoria for the first time.

Part of this is just the feminist in me talking, after having read books like "The Curse of the Good Girl" which specifically talks about how cultural femininity expectations robs girls of their ability to stand up for themselves and learn that there's more important things in life than being liked by other people. (Because basically that is what society constantly teaches young girls, is that the most important thing they can do is be seen as likeable and "nice" and a "good girl.") So I'm constantly looking for those differential social treatments, and I personally think that those different expectations have a huge effect, since so much of brain development is based on which things we reinforce, but I don't know.

Maybe I'm also not the best person to comment on this because people constantly thought that I was gay pre-transition anyway, so even though I felt like I was acting more "masculine" right after going full-time, maybe I wasn't. I don't know. That's one of the other frustrating things is that there's basically no way for me to know if I give that "vibe" off myself or not, and whether it's changed or not. So yeah, maybe I shouldn't use my own view of myself as a study example, since I don't know if anything's actually changed.

And honestly, I guess I don't have data to back it up. The change in behavior I notice most often with trans women's behavior isn't so much a change from "masculine vibe" to "feminine vibe" so much as it's a change from "so nervous and scared to death that she can barely even talk" to "relaxed, calm, and comfortable with who she is."

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 09, 2015, 10:11:14 PM
I think this is where that article by psychologist Anne Vitale that I posted in some other thread (I'll find it again if anyone is interested) comes in.  She posits that there are two broad, general categories of trans women.  There is group one (G1) consisting of people whose brains had minimal or no masculinization, leaving the default female identity intact.  There is group three (G3) consisting of people whose brains were partly masculinized, leaving a female gender identity that has been damaged, so to speak.  She points out that the folks in G1 tend to transition quickly and easily because they are able to just click right into place.  Folks in G3, on the other hand, tend to have a much harder time because their brains (and therefore their identities) tend to have certain strong masculine elements that did develop.  It bears noting that she is proposing a hypothesis, not describing well grounded research, but it sounds a lot like what we're talking about here . . . .

Just a small courtesy
http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm
A great article, btw - it made the difference for me 2 years ago. I do wonder if some parallels can or should be drawn between this theory and that of Blanchard's (dont hate me, but they both do have some points despite latter having been so heavily criticised - just my opinion and I dont want to start a flame war on that).

And everyone - this is awesome discussion (one of the best one on Susan's recently) - this has been a true intellectual pleasure to reading Your insights and ideas about this quite controversional topic. And have even managed to stay civil and polite on that . Awesome!

Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 10, 2015, 01:32:53 AM
Also, pfft... seriously? There are seriously trans women who are afraid of being in groups of cis women? And think that they shouldn't learn feminine behaviors from them?

I said they had an aversion, i.e. they are unwilling.  I never said it was because of fear.  I actually don't think it is.

I suppose it makes some sense in that cis women never had to transition.  But the fact they never had to transition is also part of what makes them so helpful and useful.  They have a lot more practice.

And it's also a reality that most men (and therefore most trans women because they are usually mistaken for men before transition) seem to not know much about women.  A lot of strange ideas are prevalent. 

So I see a large gulf between trans women and cis women.  It might just be the group of people I encounter, but it seems that most trans women learn from other trans women, drag queens, or cross dressers.  Very few actually spend much time around cis women or learn from them. 

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on January 10, 2015, 02:23:37 AM
Just a small courtesy
http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm
A great article, btw - it made the difference for me 2 years ago.

That's the right article!  Thank you!  It's a more recent discovery for me, but it also was truly a lightbulb moment for me too.

QuoteI do wonder if some parallels can or should be drawn between this theory and that of Blanchard's (dont hate me, but they both do have some points despite latter having been so heavily criticised - just my opinion and I dont want to start a flame war on that).

I'm afraid I must be missing something because I don't see a connection between this and Blanchard.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 07, 2015, 10:34:37 PM
Pre-transition, I went to a workplace happy hour ...

So then I wandered off again and came upon two female co-workers.  I joined them and it was great.  They were talking about movies and books.  We had similar tastes.  I left having given a recommendation to see the movie Stardust and having been advised to read the Game of Thrones books.  We spoke the same language.  We had the same frame of reference.  It was awesome.  But I was still seen as an outsider.  And that space could never be my home.

I cried over that single instance for about three days.  And incidents like this are the single biggest reason I transitioned.

I feel the same way.

Since I feel more at home with women, if transition brought me nothing more than to be accepted by women and not seen as an outsider and someone to be wary of, it would be worth it.  I talk with women and sometimes even can get together with them, but I always have the feeling that my being male sets up a barrier between us.  There are different expectations and the same behaviors get interpreted differently depending upon whether you are (seen as) male or female.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 07, 2015, 10:34:37 PM
I've spent a lot of time trying to define it too.  So far the best I can say is that it's about taking up space.  If you're socialized male (like most, but not all, trans women) then you're taught to take up all the space, both physically and metaphorically.  So you charge in, crowd out others, don't consider them at all.

And taking up space is all about saving room for cats!

But seriously, I've noticed that on those occasions when I actually get a seat on the subway, I keep my legs together and my stuff on my lap and generally try to take up as little space as possible.  I've always thought it was simply common decency, but maybe it's more?

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 07, 2015, 10:34:37 PM
I decided to accept no advice--none, not one iota--related to transition from a trans woman.  I just decided that for better or worse, I would be who and what I am.

I guess I have tried to be different.  Mostly because at work my bosses kept telling me I coming off as nasty or something and antagonizing people (mostly, maybe always in E-mail.)  I've been working on it for at least 15 years.  Regardless of whether I transition, I want to be seen as kind and considerate, etc.  It's not so much "how can I pass as a woman" as "how can I acquire this thing that seems to be mostly something that women have."

BTW, it's not about mannerisms for me.  It's about what kind of person people see when they see me.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 10, 2015, 07:15:50 AM
And it's also a reality that most men (and therefore most trans women because they are usually mistaken for men before transition) seem to not know much about women.  A lot of strange ideas are prevalent.

Ugh, yes!  I stopped visiting a certain cross-dressing forum (which shall remain nameless) because the guys[ * ] there seemed to have learned all they knew about women and being a woman from other equally clueless guys, and on the few occasions when the cis women (called "Genetic Girls") tried to correct their ideas about women and being a woman, they were contradicted and dismissed.  The sexism was so thick it was hard to breathe.  There was an F2M section, but F2Ms soon learned that there was no room for them there, either.

[ * ] -- I say "guys" because (a) they acted like typical guys and (b) they were insistent that they were 110% male when they weren't living out their "female side."

BTW, I've noticed that when men get together in all-male (or male-dominated) groups, there's some sort of feedback that accentuates certain "masculine" characteristics, especially the ones that alienate me.  That's why I finally gave up on men's groups.  I wonder if something like that happens in trans women groups.

I'd like to add another possibility here. Since I'm really interested in exactly what causes people to pick up these "vibes" from people, here's something else that might be involved in it.

The following is a video of a football game, where you can hear a woman screaming, and then yelling obscenities because her team gives up a 50+ yard touchdown pass.

Now imagine that those EXACT same words are being screamed, except by someone with a male voice.

Catch the bias there? When a woman does it, it seems more "cute" and "harmless." But when you imagine a male voice doing the EXACT same thing, saying the EXACT same words, the reaction might be an eye roll where you think "typical guy, getting too invested in sports and being all mannish."



So I do suspect that a lot of this has nothing at all to do with whether someone is actually behaving the same as a woman would behave or not, it's just a matter of gender confirmation bias, where a cis-woman saying the EXACT same things that a trans woman might say is automatically deemed to be less threatening and more calm just because she's more feminine in appearance and voice... smaller frame, shorter limbs, more rounded face, higher vocal resonance where her voice is clearly unchanged, etc. Someone who looks and sounds completely female would not have her femininity belittled for saying these things and acting this way, where it's very easy to look at a trans woman and say that it's her old "male side" still back there which hasn't gone away yet, and judge her behaviors as "mannish."

So yeah...

Just something else to consider. Some of the self-hate over acting "mannish" and not acting more like cis-women act might not even be true, it might just be cis-sexism talking where certain body features that are none of our fault are triggering our automatic responses to judge those who are shorter, with smaller builds, and higher voices as more "feminine" and non-threatening, and to judge those who are taller, with larger builds, and deeper voices as more "masculine" and threatening and dominating.

I don't have a great deal of expierence with support groups or even that many other transpeople but, I have to wonder if ITT there have been some rather unreasonable judgements. With being kind for example thrown out a femme trait, which makes me very confused I have met plenty of women who were unkind and plenty of men who were kind, so this tells me it has more to do with the perceptions of people ITT than gender. I am not a terribly kind person, I am selfish, manipulative, and egocentric and I don't think that makes me any less of a woman, even if that means I am not living up to some stereotype....I very much hate the idea that a sterotype would be used to judge or define me, and it is this that pushes me more and more away from the LGBT community, there is so much judgement from within it.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 10, 2015, 02:18:29 PM
I'd like to add another possibility here. Since I'm really interested in exactly what causes people to pick up these "vibes" from people, here's something else that might be involved in it.

Me too.  I've been trying to figure it out for years now. 

Quote
So I do suspect that a lot of this has nothing at all to do with whether someone is actually behaving the same as a woman would behave or not, it's just a matter of gender confirmation bias, where a cis-woman saying the EXACT same things that a trans woman might say is automatically deemed to be less threatening and more calm just because she's more feminine in appearance and voice... smaller frame, shorter limbs, more rounded face, higher vocal resonance where her voice is clearly unchanged, etc. Someone who looks and sounds completely female would not have her femininity belittled for saying these things and acting this way, where it's very easy to look at a trans woman and say that it's her old "male side" still back there which hasn't gone away yet, and judge her behaviors as "mannish."

I suspect you're right about confirmation bias.  But I also suspect it goes both ways.  Yes, the fact that people see a person with a deeper voice and larger stature and longer limbs doing something may nudge the observer to gender the behavior in a masculine way.  But it is also true that a person who badly wants to see something in themselves may miss the contradictory evidence, which may lead a person to see themselves as expressing femininity when they are actually sending off the OP's "masculine vibe." 

So let me get specific about the kind of thing I'm talking about.  Here are three specific examples of what I mean:

EXAMPLE #1:
I was sitting at the Green Turtle.  Three people present.  Me, a ciswoman, and a trans woman who has been full time for at least 4-5 years.
Waitress:  So can I take your order?
Trans woman:  Well, I'm a double D but I'll have the triple-D burger.
[later]
Me:  oh, I really do need to lose some weight.  I feel big.  But it's hard when you're life is like mine.
Trans Woman:  Oh. No don't lose weight 'cause your boobs'll shrink!

EXAMPLE #2:
At the annual Trans*Unity Picnic.  I'm the head of Trans*Unity, so  it's my group's event and I was  doing my thing of circulating to say hello to everyone, make sure everyone was having a good time, etc. 
Me: (walks outside and sits down at a picnic table with a group of about five people)
Trans woman:  (takes my hand in both of hers) Oh hello, baby.
Me: (takes hand back)
Trans woman:  (takes my hand again and starts to stroke it)  Oh no, don't pull away.  I love you, honey. No, no, don't pull away.
Me:  (takes hand back again, gets up and walks away)

I later sent her an email from a good distance away telling her that this and the whole series of interactions between us were making me and others think she was hitting on me, that I was not interested, and it was starting to get the point where I was actually starting to feel scared because of it.

EXAMPLE #3:
I was at a trans group meeting just a couple of months ago.  I, trans woman #1, and trans woman #2 arrive at the door at the same time. 
Trans woman #1:  (opens the door, motions me and trans woman #2 to go through) After you, ladies.
Trans woman #2:  (motioning to me to go through) After you.
Me:  (walks in the door, through the hall, and up the stairs to where the group is meeting.  All the sofas and chairs were taken, so I looked around for a folding chair).
Trans woman #3:  (jumps up out of her seat, goes over to where the chairs are stacked, takes one down, sets it up) There you are!
Me:  thank you.
[The meeting happens.  I sit there until the end.]
Me:  (stands up, folds the chair, picks it up and starts to take it back to the stack it came from)
Trans woman #4:  (stands up, comes over to me, takes the chair away from me and puts it back on the stack)

Now, any of these examples could have involved a cis woman as the other person.  But it would have been pretty unusual and seemed very strange.  Especially example #4, which involves four different people in the space of two hours.  Women just don't usually behave that way toward one another.  Not that it never happens, but it's odd. 

On the other hand, this type of behavior is very, very, very common by men toward women. 

And most of the trans women involved in these stories were transitioned for at least several years. 

So I guess I could read it as a group of very strangely behaved women whose actions left me confused and bewildered.  Or I could say the behavior in these situations gave off a very male vibe.  Either statement would be true.  It's the gender based expectations that make it so strange.

Quote from: Hikari on January 10, 2015, 02:18:29 PM
I don't have a great deal of expierence with support groups or even that many other transpeople but, I have to wonder if ITT there have been some rather unreasonable judgements. With being kind for example thrown out a femme trait, which makes me very confused I have met plenty of women who were unkind and plenty of men who were kind, so this tells me it has more to do with the perceptions of people ITT than gender. I am not a terribly kind person, I am selfish, manipulative, and egocentric and I don't think that makes me any less of a woman, even if that means I am not living up to some stereotype....I very much hate the idea that a sterotype would be used to judge or define me, and it is this that pushes me more and more away from the LGBT community, there is so much judgement from within it.

I don't know what ITT is.  But I do agree with you about the idea of kindness being a feminine trait.  It's an example of what I mean about people not knowing much about women . . . Women can be extremely vicious.

But as for judgment, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with having the "male vibe."  In fact, I hope I'm saying that absolutely nothing is wrong about it.  But I do wish people would just be honest and admit that very often something is there.

Heavens, even in me.  Talking about me being male socialized is usually a good way to get groups of people laughing.  But apply some pressure to me and watch how I break bad . . . You will see some guy type traits emerge.  Loudly and with much profanity.

ITT means "In This Thread".

Okay, I understand what you're talking about now... the "trying way too hard to call attention to their femaleness" type.

I feel bad judging them as that, though... like, for the most part these people seem to be consistently among the happiest trans women I know, because they enjoy celebrating their newfound womanhood so much. My old roommate was exactly like that, basically at EVERY single support group meeting telling a story about her gender being confirmed in some way ending with "...because I'm a woman!" And she constantly tells off-color jokes about female body parts, menopause, etc. And again, I tend to just roll my eyes at her because I'm very much of the "you do know that women completely take their femaleness for granted, right? They're not constantly thinking about the fact that they're women" persuasion, but again, I feel awful for judging her, because she's happy. She LOVES telling those jokes. She LOVES wearing dresses EVERYWHERE whether the situation calls for it or not. She loves going to drag shows and having the queens pick dollar bills out of her garter. All of those things confirm her own femininity to her, and make her smile, so again, I feel bad for judging her for it, even though the behavior is indeed VERY atypical and jarring to be coming from an adult woman.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 10, 2015, 04:31:36 PM
But I do agree with you about the idea of kindness being a feminine trait.  It's an example of what I mean about people not knowing much about women . . . Women can be extremely vicious.

You're right ThePhoenix, it would be wrong to say that women are kinder than men. There are men with hearts of gold and some really small, petty women.

But there's SOMETHING there. It seems to me that in general, women are constituted in such a way that makes it easier to be empathetic. Men can be empathetic too, but it seems harder for them - that by their nature not as many automatically tune in to other people's feelings.

It's just how it seems to me after half a lifetime of observing men and women, but you may be right. This may be a sign that I don't know much about women, but that's the way I'm seeing it.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 10, 2015, 07:15:50 AM
I'm afraid I must be missing something because I don't see a connection between this and Blanchard.

Maybe You are right and there is no connection. It was just my personal observation that as concerns MtF transsexuals, there are at least two (maybe more) groups which are very distinct from each other. Blanchard tried to separate them apart by age of transitioners and their sexual orientation, Vitale uses the criteria of supposed differences in degree of brain masculinisation and age (again) - G1 tends to transition at younger age as well as to blend in perfectly (in fact where they do have trouble is trying to present as men), whereas G3 are "late bloomers' for various reasons (blending into male world better than G1, not being able to figure themselves out as early as G1 and countless other). In some way, Dr Vitale's theory is much better phrased unlike Blanchard's (my opinion again - but he did have some serious points) - my impression was that he was hated because of ->-bleeped-<- reference much more than for referring to sexual orientation as the main criterion.