Hey guys nicky here mtf looking for some ffs advice i have been on hormones for 3 months now im not full time yet and i do have a somewhat prominent browbone my eyebrows are ok when i get them thinned out but i was just wondering is it possible to pass with a male browbone and forhead?

Nothing is required. It's what you can live with that counts. If you are okay with yourself and confident enough then that's all you need. I had it done, including my forehead work because I felt it would help with blending in and integrating with my gender. My decision came by looking at myself in the mirror and being brutally honest with myself. "Can I live with my perceived defects for the rest of my life?". After much should searching I realized that having the surgery would be better for my psyche and that's the path I took. But your path could be completely different than mine. If you're happy with yourself then don't let detractors take away your happiness. If you feel deep down that you will need the surgery to help your life, then I guess you know what you will need to do.

Hiya

FFS is sometimes a question of necessity, but often it is a preference.  There's a strong question whether passing is just a matter of bits of your face, so please bear this in mind.

If you live in a city or can get to one, I suggest you go on the metro at rush hour and look at the people.  Or go to a busy mall or coffee shop and do the same.  You'll be astounded at the variation in female faces.  Here is Spain, a lot of women have brow bossing an other masculine features, but are quite obviously women.  Look at all parts of faces and you'll see masses of variation.

Remember that good makeup can often compensate for male features, and it doesn't hurt or have medical consequences.  If you've not tried it, go to a makeup artist and let them fix you up to see what's possible to achieve.

Hugs
J

Quote from: Julia-Madrid on January 09, 2015, 07:59:12 AM
You'll be astounded at the variation in female faces.

This is what has helped me accept my face more.. I work in a supermarket, and I am amazed at how many "pretty" women have masculine traits, including brow bossing to some degree.. I think we focus greatly on these things, even if they're not objectively very prominent, because we see them as byproducts of our incorrect puberty instead of womanly traits. But a women with a brow bossing, or a strong chin is still a woman.  

I think its an individual decision whether one feels that they need/like to have FFS. People have their own reasons to have or not to have the procedures but its each to their own.

You've only been on hormones 3 months, so still time yet to see the full affects of the hormones. It'd sure be a bonus for you, if you don't feel like you have to have FFS (a financial saving) is one of them Lol

nessa76

Any PS will tell you that no amount of time on hormones will make a difference to the structures of the face

To some degree this is true, but they leave out the part of the soft tissues that do change.

As nessa said, you're still too early on at 3 months. Give it some time, at least a year, before you start considering FFS.

From my own experience, I did determine early on that I would probably want it at some point- but I also wanted to give it time so I didn't overcorrect anything. I.e. early on I thought I might need some jaw work  because I had a very pointy jawline. After about a year it almost completely disappeared after the fat redistributed.

Things like the adam's apple you could take care of at anytime, though. But, you didn't mention it so perhaps you are one of the lucky ones

Quote from: Jennygirl on January 10, 2015, 05:16:40 AM
Any PS will tell you that no amount of time on hormones will make a difference to the structures of the face.

I can attest to this.  In the initial conversations I've had with a few plastic surgeons, they have universally told me that the length of time I've been on hormones makes no difference whatsoever because they'll be working on bone that HRT won't change.  And on some level (i.e. the level where someone like me hands over $20,000 to the surgeon), it makes sense.  But Jenny is absolutely right (and I need to take her advice too): give the hormones time to do their work.

Quote from: JennygirlThings like the adam's apple you could take care of at anytime, though.

This is one piece of work I will have done ASAP.  HRT is not going to affect that in any way whatsoever, and it's gotta be done unless I want to be the girl walking around in the middle of summer with a scarf wrapped around her neck.

The thing is, I don't actually mind my face.  Hormones are working - slowly, but they're working.  And much as I'd love to see more immediate results - I'm an impatient person and it's bitten me in the backside time and time and time again in the past; you would have thought I'd have learned by now, but no... - I'm trying my hardest to wait and see what the HRT fairy brings over the next year or so.  FFS can produce some rapid, dramatic results, but as others have mentioned already, the natural variety of female face structures is immense, and there's a significant overlap between what is male and what is female.

Remember Venn diagrams from those first few years of math when you were a child?  Well, the "intersection" between the set of male faces and female faces is absolutely huge, and I dare say that more of us than we realize fall into that intersection between the two sets.  FFS surgeons make a lot of money from girls like us who tweak all manner of things on our faces.  It's not as if we're the average fifty year old upper-middle class housewife who spends five grand on a facelift.  We're sometimes dumping five or ten times as much into an entire facial reconstruction.  And while doctors are generally good, caring people, they've also got expensive practices to run and want to enjoy a certain lifestyle themselves.  If they told us all the absolute honest truth ("You don't actually need FFS; you need to grow out your hair, spend a few hundred bucks on better clothes, finish up electrolysis and work on your confidence"), they'd be out of business.  They sell beauty, not femininity - there is a difference between the two, as evidenced by the vast majority of women in the world who are just average-looking but who manage to pass as female 24/7/365.

I also agree with Jenny.  I was on hormones for over 2 years before I had FFS.  It does change the soft tissues of your face and where your fat is distributed.  It's also why I'm only now thinking of having a BA.  I wanted to make sure that the hormones had peaked on their changes to my body so that I'd have a better idea of what I needed and where I wanted to go.  I know you're in a hurry to fully transition.  I was at first as well.  But it is very much a journey, not a race.  With all the surprises and self-discovery I've experienced along the way, I'm really glad that I took the slower route.

Quote from: Brenda E on January 10, 2015, 08:08:46 AM
This is one piece of work I will have done ASAP.  HRT is not going to affect that in any way whatsoever, and it's gotta be done unless I want to be the girl walking around in the middle of summer with a scarf wrapped around her neck.

Admittedly, I don't have a large trachea, but it's still not always the major giveaway you make it out to be..

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 10, 2015, 09:12:20 AM
Admittedly, I don't have a large trachea, but it's still not always the major giveaway you make it out to be..

I agree with this.  It's the effort that goes into "hiding it" that often draws attention to it - rather like passing as female in general: it's the fact that we often try too hard to be female that gives the game away.  If we just act natural and blend in, nobody notices.

The AA is one of those bits of us which confirms a suspicion, rather than stands out as an immediate sign of being trans.  It's not something that people tend not to notice, but it's something they look for if they decide, for whatever reason, that we might be trans and warrant further investigation.  They'll start to look for the common clues: AA, "big hands", hairline, etc.  My goal is to not stand out enough for anyone to feel the need to look for clues about whether I'm trans or not.  My goal is for people to glance at me, think "uh, she's boring old Plain Jane" and then move their eyes on to the far prettier girls who are actually seeking a little attention.

And to bring this back around to the original discussion about FFS, my big fear with FFS is that it'll look slightly (or very) unnatural like I've had obvious face surgery - and that'll be a huge clue that I'm transgender.  My natural face with the effects of HRT might well be far less noticeable than a prettier FFSed face that draws attention to myself.

Not sure I want to be pretty...

To be honest, Brenda, after I had FFS, I was kind of upset that if anything I was getting MORE looks than before.  That wasn't what I wanted.  I wanted to blend in and be unnoticed, but that wasn't happening.  I felt like everybody was clocking me.  It took me awhile (and a few cis friends to point out) to realize that what I was experiencing was what all ciswomen grew up with: that I was a woman in a patriarchal society.  It doesn't really matter about beauty.  People are still gonna check you out, whether subtly or open staring.  It's jarring and uncomfortable, but I just kind of tuned it out after awhile.  Nowadays, I could care less if it's appreciating glances or if they're trying to clock me.  I hardly notice, and I'm too busy being me and happy anyway.  Results from surgery doesn't seem to matter unless it's something completely outlandish and out of the perceived societal "norm".  People who get those types of procedures (enormous lips, boobs, etc.) are usually ok with the extra attention they'll get.

Brenda I really like that analogy to the venn diagram and the large crossover, I'm going to use that

Quote from: AubreyN7 on January 10, 2015, 11:35:00 AM
To be honest, Brenda, after I had FFS, I was kind of upset that if anything I was getting MORE looks than before.  That wasn't what I wanted.  I wanted to blend in and be unnoticed, but that wasn't happening.  I felt like everybody was clocking me.  It took me awhile (and a few cis friends to point out) to realize that what I was experiencing was what all ciswomen grew up with: that I was a woman in a patriarchal society.  It doesn't really matter about beauty.  People are still gonna check you out, whether subtly or open staring.

Guys are such utter pigs, aren't they?

Quote from: Jennygirl on January 10, 2015, 01:27:01 PM
Brenda I really like that analogy to the venn diagram and the large crossover, I'm going to use that

That's literally about the sum total of the math I retained from my entire education. My math teacher would be so proud that something he taught me actually had a practical use after all, albeit probably not one he would have expected.  "Brenda, one day when you're 'online' (whatever that is because the internet hasn't been invented yet) and trying to explain facial structure to a bunch of transgender girls, you'll thank me for spending an entire semester on Venn diagrams..."

If passing to the general public is the concern, the human face is replete with signatures of sexual dimorphism. Their importance, in my opinion, is as follows:

Very strong indicators:
- brow bone prominence
- lower chin projection, chin length, square vs. rounded chin shape (viewed from the front)
- angle and depth of the nose
- vertical ratio of facial thirds; from the hairline to the eyebrows, from the eyes to the lower nose, lower nose to chin
- upper eyelid exposure (covered / not covered by brow bone and its soft tissues)

Strong indicators:
- anterior cheek bone projection
- upper and lower lip ratio, upper lip curl
- hairline shape
- overall nose size
- jaw width

Mild indicators:
- cheek fullness
- angle of jaw line
- lip fullness
- length of the philtrum (the area between the upper lip and bottom of nose)
- lateral cheekbone projection

Very mild indicators:
- canthal tilt (the angle between the fleshy inner and outer bits of the eye)
- cheekbone height

There are indeed women who carry a lot of masculine facial traits and men who, likewise, carry many feminine traits. The reason that humans maintain a strong ability to tell one another apart is because these differences are often measured in millimeters and depend on how they relate to the rest of the face. For example, a woman with a strong brow bone is often either older or has considerable upper eyelid show. She is also likely to inhabit many other female-range features (like a sweeping nose angle and shallow upper nasal depth). A man with a petite, dainty nose likely still has strong nasal depth, modest upper eyelid show, and a facial ratio that favors the middle and lower thirds. He could also have masculine lower chin projection. The list goes on.

Whether or not a trans woman "needs" FFS to pass depends on how all of her facial features relate to one another. Even one well-established masculine feature can throw off the rest, especially if it is a feature that is strongly associated with sexual dimorphism.

As an aside, facial thirds cannot be manipulated by medicine that is practiced by the vast majority of surgeons (and certainly not any FFS surgeons, that I'm aware of). The techniques currently available to move these bits are fairly risky, often produce ample scarring, and are almost entirely reserved for people disfigured by genetic abnormalities. However, someone with masculine thirds (especially a very long midface) can still easily pass as long as their remaining features are feminine, hence there are few people that skilled FFS cannot help.

I disagree that canthal tilt is a very mild indicator. Uptilted yet round eyes are very feminizing. Women on average having both higher outer corners and lower inner corners (two different features technically) are traits consistently found throughout different ethnic groups. I also believe though that it's hard to separate various qualities and decide what is most important. Oddly women don't actually have fuller lips than men. Not sure why estrogen is supposedly tied specifically to lip fat when men technically have more lip fat. Also it's not as if heavy people have large lips, usually the lips just get a little saggy looking at the outer corners. However, society does associate full lips with women, sort of like thin eyebrows. Interestingly eyebrows are probably THE most important feature even though women likely don't even have thinner eyebrows, seeing as that hair is not related to testosterone. Full lips are a youthful trait though which is good. As for actual differences, women do on average have narrower lips. Makeup can be used to minimize the outer corners, sort of a mild version of what they did in the 1920s. Makeup can also be used to mimic an uptilted upper lid.

In terms of FFS I would say a lip lift and making the chin narrower are pretty important. I think a long philtrum being terrible is overemphasized though since it is pretty common to see attractive women with somewhat long philtrums for one thing, and it's not as if the difference between men and women is even that strong when you compare it to other differences. I also think a shorter philtrum has become "trendy" so to speak when you compare current models/actresses to further back. I think the most important part is that a short philtrum makes the midface smaller. I also think the lower face potentially matters more than the brow ridge. Anyway unless there is a ridge above the eyebrow I think filler can be put below the brow to mimic the effect of having a smaller brow ridge. While actual differences between male and female faces matter the question is if society focuses on those features. So while something like eye tilt is actually a strong shape difference, lips are probably more focused on than eye shape so maybe Sybil is actually right about those two things. I don't think many people even notice the brow ridge unless it's very strong. The other traits I think are feminizing are clear, even, finely textured skin that has a "glow," upper cheek fat, and a relatively small nose. I don't think the nose has to be that small though. If you have a long nose you can get away with having a slightly wider one for instance. Also if you have a wide space between your eyes or a wide mouth. A lot of this stuff becomes about proportion.

I also think the problem with passing is that different people have different ideas of what makes a face male or female. Some ideas might be subconscious, some might be cultural, some might not even be true. I actually have some memory from reading different studies that certain ethnic groups have features that are stronger indicators of maleness/femaleness that other groups might almost lack. Also people have an easier time of identifying if someone is male or female if they are from a similar ethnic group, which points to certain indicators being learned or emphasized differently in different cultures. For one thing in some places a large, hooked nose would not keep one from passing, similarly a large philtrum or even a prominent brow ridge. Almost every feature is more related to ethnicity than gender, separate from certain traits like breasts, hips, or skin. I don't know if this will help anyone but it did help me. This possibly contradicts what I said at the beginning of this post. I do think certain features matter when it comes to the face, however I think the body matters more and that can be easily faked if need be.

Great thread and so much makes sense.

My journey started in 1988 and here we are in 2016, 28 years on and I am still travelling .... 

My personal plan (note pre-everything at this point) is to not have FFS unless I have been on HRT for a while, gotten a feminine voice, become experienced with makeup and clothes, and still don't pass.  Various reasons including needing glasses to see which would complicate my recovery, as well as just not wanting to have any surgeries I don't need.