Quote from: rejennyrated on January 10, 2010, 03:58:29 AM
As I often say to my zealot friends, "I have no problems being judged by a deity, it's when you lot take it upon yourselves to presume the outcome in advance that I get upset."

Going straight into my FB profile as a fav quote! Thanks.

Uh , I don't want to start Flaming any religion here . Still , check out a Unitarian Universalist church , yes they even have a web page too . Ellen Shaver

Quote from: eshaver on January 11, 2010, 01:30:04 PM
Uh , I don't want to start Flaming any religion here . Still , check out a Unitarian Universalist church , yes they even have a web page too . Ellen Shaver

I don't mind Unitarians actually... I don't really count them though, because aren't they accepting of most faiths?

I used to attend a group. It was pretty much just a free exchange of thought.

They're an exception to my wrath usually... But part of me hates all faith equally, so maybe not TOTALLY an exception.

Quote from: gennee on January 10, 2010, 03:13:49 PM
What is society's obsession with everybody being straight? It's coming to the point that I need to write and post a commentary about this topic.

Gennee

While agreeing with Alyssa's sumation entirely, I will add that, society has always attempted to enforce a norm based upon what is generally held.

When any sort of problems arise or are precieved, society seeks to look to the excentrics from their norm. The persecutions of midwives, herbalists and lonely old women for witchcraft in the Middle ages for example.

The persecution of many minority groups designated deviant in the 1930s and 40s in Europe, Jews, Homosexuals, Communists, mentally handicapped.

Our societies are progressing toward democracy, where each of us are entitled to choose our own way of life, within certain limits.

In the 70s, I hid my homosexuality for fear that I might be labeled a child molestor or perhaps have designs on every man I come into contact with.

The truth is, I have rarely seen a man I found attractive. I am most certainly not promiscuious.

The Roman Catholic Church has a problem altering any of its opinions. It still won't accept any fault in events leading to the reformation, for example.

The Orthodox Church, similarily, has a problem admitting it may have been wrong. Perhaps for rather different reasons.

But intelegent Christians of many denominations are coming to see that each of us, individually, is really responsible for what we do.

Sadly, there are still a number of groups which seem to have priorities that go beyond simply being Christian.

To an extent, many of these seem to be after money and political power. Sadly, most seem to be attempting to simply isolate their congrigations from the rest of society.

What I personally find so disturbing is the manner in which the recently radicalised secularist/humanists seek to highlight what these, often very vocal and agressive groups say, Creationism for example, and claim that these notions are representitve of the entire body of Christians.

If it weren't for this disturbing aliance of two very  enegmatic and negative groups, I would personally choose to ignore the evangelicals altogether. Those caught up in their net being the unfortunate gullable that have alwasy existed.

Addition.

I have been directed to this site by an aquantence. It is a bunch of these new age christian types trying to claim that health care reform in the USA is against the will of God.

It's really more tragic than funny.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/subjects/prayercast

Oh, gosh that's not good.

The more people do this the more the Christians who hate on us will think it's possible to be "cured".

In fact all it takes is one person... and oh joy, there's that one person. 

Quote from: Emily on January 12, 2010, 05:03:12 PM
Oh, gosh that's not good.

The more people do this the more the Christians who hate on us will think it's possible to be "cured".

In fact all it takes is one person... and oh joy, there's that one person. 

Sure, you can be cured, through the power of christs love you can suffer for the rest of your life by not being who you are, by suffering you are showing obedience to god who loves you.... honestly I have absolutely no problem with Christians, I wouldn't even say I "don't" believe in god. But how a merciful and loving god can create you to be something you have to suffer from for no reason but because he doesn't like you acting in the way you were created without intervention that harms nobody and can make you a better member of society makes ANY sense... is beyond me.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on January 12, 2010, 06:14:12 PM
But how a merciful and loving god can create you to be something you have to suffer from for no reason but because he doesn't like you acting in the way you were created without intervention that harms nobody and can make you a better member of society makes ANY sense... is beyond me.

That's how I see it as well.

Jesus never said any of these things. And if you identify with His teachings, then it would seem that you would put them before any others.

I had to think for a while before posting the link to the videos above, it isn't my place to attack the beliefs of others, even if I do disagree strongly.

But in one of those, some guy attempts to claim that a health service goes against the 10 Commandments. Jesus clarified the 10 commandments for us. This guy is making it all up.

I suggest that these people are more motivated by politics than faith. They are the same frightened individuals that, seeing problems in their own lives, seek to blame other, easy targets.

The same people who burned old women, midwives and herbalists for witch craft. The same people who murdered Homosexuals, Communists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Jews.

But I suggest, we must strongly reject the notion that these are preaching christianity. These people are no more preaching christianity than Hitler was a democrat.

When I saw the video, I was heart-sick. Truly, over the millennia, even well-meaning Christians have done horrible things. I was raised by a Pentecostal Minister, became agnostic, converted to Judaism, and study Buddhist philosophy. During my journey through different ways of understanding, I have read and observed that there are different ways of experiencing G-d, or Goddess, or the Divine or Sacred or whatever. Some people experience the sacred as love. Some people experience righteousness as sacred. Those who focus on righteousness seem more likely to be judgmental and fearful in their understanding of G-d. It is as if they take the Buddhist notion that pain is inevitable, and use it to mean that, being sinful (not a Buddhist notion) we deserve to suffer. If people "sin," they should suffer. And to the "righteous," many things are sin, often including being different.

Sometimes the best reason not to tell someone else how to live or what to do is that we do not know what another person needs - only they do. When, as the people in this church did, we forcefully tell someone else our idea of how they should live, no matter how well meaning we are, we risk doing great harm.

I hope, and pray, that this tortured soul can find peace and healthy compassion in her(?) life.

The church has no power over anyone! They used fear and denial to get weak minded people confused! You want help, see a doctor, not some mail order preacher who has no clue what GID is, or even cares!

This is a very old thread, but I remember it from back in the day.

I really don't know what to make of this video. It is inevitable that some people will make the choice to transition and will eventually live to regret it. Such is life. Maybe there is a component of mental illness with these people, or maybe it's something in their past, or maybe it is something in their upbringing. Maybe it is as simple as not thinking it through. Chances are we will never know.

I firmly believe that being transgender has a biological component. Nature naturally creates variations of most things - we have transgender behaviors of animals as evidence of that - so why shouldn't we find the same variations in people?

Moving on to the religious aspect of the video - if these variations are found in nature, why are the churches requiring their members that naturally have these variations to change themselves - changes that are likely to cause great harm? These things they want changed did not make the "top 10" list of thou-shalt-nots in the bible.

The video touched on the damage the churches are causing when it pointed out that this church was dealing with unexpected consequences after requiring her to change back into living as a man. Faith is a wonderful thing, but blind faith is very dangerous  - we see evidence of that every night on the news with people committing horrible acts in the name of their Creator.

Maybe the intent is to do the right thing in their Creator's eyes, but the demands and incredible guilt placed on people like this person combined with a complete lack of understanding of the underlying medical condition and the damage such a demand is likely to bring is reprehensible.

Not much to say about the original video, but since religion was being discussed, I just thought I'll add my two cents from my religion's (Hinduism's) perspective.

Hinduism has millions of deities, and some of the most powerful ones are known to have hermaphroditic or both male and female forms, or to turn from male to female and vice versa in certain myths / stories. There are also references to transgenders in many of its scriptures, and transgenders have openly existed in Hindu society (on its fringes, in very harsh conditions) for centuries. Despite all this, and some recent legal judgments which have been favorable, transgenders in India face probably as much discrimination if not more than anywhere else. And sadly, the groups / parties / leaders who are most open to declaring themselves as proud Hindus and upholders of the Hindu faith and who were swept into power last year are also the most likely to be transphobic and homophobic.

So when I read on this thread that it's not Christ's teachings which are the problem, but the groups which are using it for money or political power and forcing everyone else to conform, it just resonated exactly with what I am seeing around me here on the other side of the world.

So far, I have talked to a couple reform rabbis about being trans. Both were really supportive, but said they didn't know all that much about trans issues when I talked to them and thought I should probably start seeing a professional therapist who has more experience with this.

Quote from: rejennyrated on January 10, 2010, 03:58:29 AM

As I often say to my zealot friends, "I have no problems being judged by a deity, it's when you lot take it upon yourselves to presume the outcome in advance that I get upset."

Ooo, I love that.  Can I steal that?