I've noticed lately a desire in myself to make sure my friends know that I'm transgender and that I transitioned from male to female.

That's a major contrast from how I felt a year ago, where I would happily have gone stealth if I could have.

I think it has to do with the fact that I consider myself non-binary. I present to the world as a woman, but I'm unwilling or unable completely to get rid of all vestiges of manhood. I don't know whether I'm non-binary because I lived as a man for more than 50 years or whether I'm somehow wired that way, but for whatever reason, I find that I want my social contacts to be aware and to acknowledge that I used to live as a man and to understand those experiences.

This also contrasts from what I hear from a lot of binary trans women who seem to need to leave the whole male experience behind them.

I wonder if this interest is perhaps a way of expressing my (non-binary) gender to the world. I show them the female that I like being, but also a little bit of the male experiences that formed a lot of who I am.

Or maybe it has nothing to do with being NB. Maybe it's a way of getting attention and feeling special - something I have that no one else has.

Can anyone relate to all this?

I think its more of a way to be your self. No matter how female and cis a transgender operates in the real world  your brain tells you different. If your brain was able to totally delete every moment of your life you presented as male then  I would delete all the files and never think about it, that will never happen unless I somehow became an amnesiac . You can expend a lot of energy in your conscious existence to continue ignoring the reality of your life, but it seems a more easier solution is to acknowledge and move on.

Can't say that I do. I won't deny i am transgender, and amongst my friends I am happy to talk about my experiences and adventures if they are interested. But for the most part I am a person and being trans is one nuance of that so I don't bring it up much unless asked or there's something major going on. One thing I do feel compelled to do though is mention my previous attempt at transition from the early 1990s.

I'm not non binary but then I don't see myself as fully binary either. In some ways I'm just non gendered but prefer and enjoy being female.

The more I read about other people experiences, the more I get inclined to think that we all do have different perceptions as to what being non-binary as opposed to binary means. Maybe, just maybe, sometimes something we might be tempted to belong to non-binary - actually is not? But then again, who can and will define what means living as a binary (especially for someone who has transgender life experience)?

Truth be told I want to get rid of the trans label as soon as I can. I don't mind helping the trans community and to friendly supportive people I will freely admit I am trans but for the most part I just want to transition and move on. I know I can't be deep stealth but I can be stealth to most people I don't know as well as new acquaintances and that's fine.

Non binary is also not my thing. I respect those that do it and if it's their thing, they should be free to do it and be accepted by society. But for me I have no desire to be NB and I don't really understand why someone would want to be one. I want to be a female, period and yes I know I can't fully be one but I will be as female as I can be.

People don't want to be non-binary just like you don't want to be female, though. There isn't a choice, we are who we are. That's all there is to understand.

Hugs, Devlyn

I feel that for me it'll be something I'm not exactly going to introduce myself and be like, hey I'm Kat, I used to have a penis. However, if we've known each other and say we're talk about the time I was in Korea or visited the Grand Canyon I'll totally ask if they want to see pictures even though the pictures are per-transition. Basically I'm not really gonna hide that I transitioned, but I'm not going to be broadcasting it either. If it comes up as part of a conversation and feels appropriate to discuss I would probably talk about it, I'm not a good secret keeper.

Quote from: KittyKat on January 14, 2015, 11:18:52 PM
I feel that for me it'll be something I'm not exactly going to introduce myself and be like, hey I'm Kat, I used to have a penis. However, if we've known each other and say we're talk about the time I was in Korea or visited the Grand Canyon I'll totally ask if they want to see pictures even though the pictures are per-transition. Basically I'm not really gonna hide that I transitioned, but I'm not going to be broadcasting it either. If it comes up as part of a conversation and feels appropriate to discuss I would probably talk about it, I'm not a good secret keeper.

Personally, I don't think it's anyone's business to ask about the history of another person's genitals, unless you're lovers and STDs are involved.  I also suck at lying.  I think it's because I'm exhausted from lying to myself for so long.  So as long as someone doesn't ask me about me being trans, I won't usually volunteer the information.  I'm awesome at keeping friends' secrets though.

I fit pretty well in the female box, but I love wearing jeans and T-shirts and not much makeup.  Granted, I have a  different wardrobe that came from a different section than before I began transitioning, but they aren't particularly feminine.  Still, I doubt I'd have the cajones to be out as trans in the public eye.  [emoji6]

Edit: Besides, most people have no idea and can't begin to imagine what it's like being transgender.  It'd be like constantly telling the clueless that I'm an alien and don't understand their gender constructs.  I'd rather be "normal" when I want to spend time with my friends.  If I can't just be me without trying to fill a particular label when I'm with my friends, then why would I stay friends with them?

Quote from: ImagineKate on January 14, 2015, 09:03:49 PM
Non binary is also not my thing. I respect those that do it and if it's their thing, they should be free to do it and be accepted by society. But for me I have no desire to be NB and I don't really understand why someone would want to be one.

Is this meant to imply that being Non-Binary is a choice?

I'll have to say I find that troubling on a transgender board, where it's generally understood that our gender identities are not a choice, and especially in the non-binary section of a transgender board where people generally go to get perspectives from other non-binary people and allies. To ask on a non-binary board, "Is this a way anyone else presents as non-binary?" and receive as an answer, "I don't understand why anyone would want to be non-binary" feels sort of invalidating.

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 15, 2015, 06:47:02 AM
Is this meant to imply that being Non-Binary is a choice?

I'll have to say I find that troubling on a transgender board, where it's generally understood that our gender identities are not a choice, and especially in the non-binary section of a transgender board where people generally go to get perspectives from other non-binary people and allies. To ask on a non-binary board, "Is this a way anyone else presents as non-binary?" and receive as an answer, "I don't understand why anyone would want to be non-binary" feels sort of invalidating.

Well yes, what I meant was that I don't understand why someone would want to present as non binary.

But I really don't mind and if it's your thing it's your thing and I'll use the proper pronouns and respect your presentation as valid. It's just not my thing and I don't really understand it. But it's your identity and presentation and it's who you are and you're free to be who you are.

Identity is not a choice. Presentation is.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 14, 2015, 09:41:01 PM
People don't want to be non-binary just like you don't want to be female, though. There isn't a choice, we are who we are. That's all there is to understand.

Hugs, Devlyn

That's true and respect is still given. I don't claim to understand all the secrets of the universe either.

The way I look at things, what suzifrommd is talking about isn't "non-binary", it's "non-cis".

If you're trans, and transitioned, no matter what you do, no matter how well you pass, you're going to be different from the people who've spent their whole lives in your new gender (i.e., cis people), in the way that immigrants will always be different from natives.  Your history of growing up and living as the other gender is written on your mind and on your body.

This shouldn't be seen as all that remarkable.  I grew up half a century ago, in the USA South (where, as Faulkner wrote,  "The past is never dead. It's not even past.")  For all that I've left the South and never want to go back, it's a part of me.  I lived through the time of the Vietnam War, the Counterculture, and those experiences are a big part of my world view.  If someone wants to know me, as opposed to somebody that vaguely resembles me, they need to know about that part of me.

In the same way, if I transition, and even if I pass perfectly (unlikely!), my male upbringing and my years living as, presenting as, being treated as male, and the effects thereof, will something anybody who wants to know me will have to understand.

(And if I don't transition, my rejection of masculinity and my "feminine" aspects will be things they have to  understand in order to understand me.)

tl;dr -- my understanding of what suzifrommd is wanting is for the people who care about her and who she cares about to know all of who she is, not just an edited, cis-female-like version of herself.  And who wouldn't want that?

(Okay, I'm sure that there are some people who don't, give me a break....)

That I can understand, and I agree.

You want to be out as trans, because you are proud of being trans, and that is fine.

To me though, it's just something I really don't want to discuss at all. I'll discuss with close friends and family to a limited degree but I'm not letting it define me.

Quote from: ImagineKate on January 15, 2015, 10:13:09 AM
You want to be out as trans, because you are proud of being trans, and that is fine.

It's more than that, and that's what I'm trying to figure out. I want people to know there's something male inside my female presentation. And I'm wondering if being out as a trans woman (and therefore a 50 year history of being male) is my way of doing that. I was curious about what other non-binary people here think of that, and whether any of the other NB folks have had the same thoughts.

I replied to this post already , but I think I misinterpreted what you were saying.  I think your saying that you want to be seen as both male and female. I'm a binary in thought and I strive to see myself totally female, But I know that the brain has the unique  ability to record reality and store it until death, unless disease or whatever negates that ability. That storage of my male persona is a physical reality which I can't erase in my cognitive daily thought process , so its basically a permanent situation I daily deal with while striving to view myself as a complete woman. I guess your saying you want both the female and male persona to be seen as a daily reality which is totally your free choice. I've been a female all my life , but social reality say's I've been a male so the term transgender   is what defines me , but I need to be totally female

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 15, 2015, 10:53:26 AM
....I want people to know there's something male inside my female presentation. And I'm wondering if being out as a trans woman (and therefore a 50 year history of being male) is my way of doing that. I was curious about what other non-binary people here think of that, and whether any of the other NB folks have had the same thoughts.

Do people who "identify" as NB think the same way you do?  I certainly don't know but I wouldn't think so.   But then, how would I know how other people think.  Despite the fact that I do not "identify" as NB, I often "present" as NB.  I am still identified or seen as female but I am not "hiding" my past or "editing" or abbreviating my history, I am simply not raising irrelevant issues.

I agree with Kate that you have every right to present or identify any way you choose or feel any way you must. However, I find it oppressive for some to sit in judgment of others, (as you did) and declaring that their lack of understanding of your personal views and feelings to be "invalidating". When will those same standards of equality and respect apply to those who either do not understand or agree with your views or feelings?

Also, I do not agree with Asche that " you're going to be different from the people who've spent their whole lives in your new gender (i.e., cis people), in the way that immigrants will always be different from natives"

While I think that that may be true in many cases, especially for those who have lived their lives in the gender that they were born into and socialized as such for more than half their lives, I do not agree that that is necessarily the case for everyone.  Consider the case of someone like myself who was brought to this country as a babe in arms.  I certainly do not "feel" or "identify" as different, nor am I seen or treated any differently.

As for " wanting others to know that you are trans* because you feel that "there is something male inside your female presentation", or because of a " 50 year history of being male", I think this is just your way of dealing with those facts.  And yes.  I do understand.

Hugs

Interesting questions. For me, right now in the early stages of transitioning and trying to figure out what exactly that means for me, I've been thinking a lot about the things you bring up. I have an image in my mind that it sounds like is similar to your earlier feeling, of wanting to present as female without qualification, but I'm not sure that's either feasible or what I actually want. I do feel like my life to date, which has been lived as male, is important to me and to who I am. I don't regret any of it, and I don't want to forget it or pretend it didn't happen, or even treat it as though I were a woman during that time. (Internally, perhaps I have always "been" female, I don't know, but if so I had suppressed that identity deeply enough that for social purposes I "was" male.)

The idea that I may be non-binary in nature has occurred to me, and perhaps that has to do with why I haven't been entirely miserable with my male body and social roles to date. But I don't know, and ultimately, I don't think I'm going to worry much about that. I do know I want to have a female body and to appear at least mostly female, but in terms of activities and interests I expect to ignore gender as much as I can. But I suspect my feelings about these sorts of things will develop as I move along...

Quote from: Ms Grace on January 14, 2015, 12:01:10 PM
I'm not non binary but then I don't see myself as fully binary either. In some ways I'm just non gendered but prefer and enjoy being female.

Are you saying that binarity is not binary??? 

Quote from: TamarasWay on January 15, 2015, 12:03:01 PM
However, I find it oppressive for some to sit in judgment of others, (as you did) and declaring that their lack of understanding of your personal views and feelings to be "invalidating".

Picture how you would feel if you posted in an MtF area about how you wanted to present as a woman and got an answer "I don't know why anyone would want to be MtF". Wouldn't you feel it's a bit invalidating?

As always our journeys and life experiences encompass a unique personal outlook.  Perhaps because I am older and accepted that not passing was not going to inhibit me from living a most genuine and unhidden life.  Perhaps it is because I fought this too long and in doing so created a toxic, fear based internal climate.  It was the shame, denial and lying to myself that was more hurtful than anything another could say.  I resolved when starting transition that my long past life would not be denied and in fact would be a celebrated part of who i am in total.  Anything less would feel to me like jumping from one box of restrictions and expectations to another, equally stereotypical presentation.  Don't we have enough people telling us how to look and feel through life?

Suzi initially asked in the non binary forum if folks could relate and for me this clearly resonates.  The modern history of treatment for transgender/transexual people includes a past when only those people deemed by the medical people to most likely be passable and willing to deny their past could get HRT and surgery.  We have come along way in understanding that there is not just one formula for being trans.  Some gatekeepers still have less support for a non binary transition.  Likewise there is no app to push the buttons on and give us a chart that can weight how decades of socialization might influence our presentation and identity.

We can speculate about our differences and the origins of our identity and our lofty goals but today is all we really have and I prefer to celebrate and recognize a full life that includes feeling like a girl while living as a boy and man.  As the love songs and movies say, "Why not take all of me"

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 16, 2015, 01:08:14 PM
Picture how you would feel if you posted in an MtF area about how you wanted to present as a woman and got an answer "I don't know why anyone would want to be MtF". Wouldn't you feel it's a bit invalidating?

Not if someone said that they respect you even though they don't understand.

Not everyone is going to understand us. Not everyone is going to understand you. Even within the community.