I'm not sure anyone would even have an answer to this question, thought I'd ask anyways. If I know anything right now, it's that I'm not cis. However it does kind of worry me that I find myself really wanting to transition and be a guy, but I still can't in any convincing way say that I'm a guy. It kinda worries me because most people would rather it be anything than them being trans, while I do feel a bit of that, I still really want to be trans and be a guy. Makes me kinda wonder whether I might be cis but really hoping I'm trans so I could transition. But that makes me trans for sure right?

I realize I'm not making much sense here.. But really, do cis people ever fall into the trap of believing that they're trans?

Given that being trans is pretty much a self diagnosis, by definition, I'd say that can't happen.

But there are people, not a lot but they exist, who transition and realize they wish they had stayed the gender they were before their transition.

Have you read about being genderfluid? Some days one feels more girlie, other days more guyie...but not in an absolute binary fashion.

There are other descriptions for a non binary transgendered person, but I don't know that area. There is a non binary forum here on Susans...look into it before doing anything permanent.

I'm definitely not genderfluid, I can't recall a day in my life where I felt more feminine than masculine. The nonbinary area is a bit more complex to navigate though. The only trans person I know personally is nonbinary, and in our conversations I remember them saying that they identify very strongly in the middle, while in response I recall saying that I'm definitely much more masculine than feminine and therefore I'm pretty sure I'm not nonbinary. But still I don't know, I think even if I did end up concluding I was nonbinary I'd still end up transitioning if given the chance. I guess my main struggle is figuring out the line between masculinity and maleness?  If that makes any sense..

Are you talking to a therapist or counsellor about these feelings and concerns?

Like Suzi says, it can happen that people transition and then wish they hadn't. That doesn't mean they were cis, it may be more complex in that their expectations were not met (believing that transition would cure all of life's problems), they still felt they couldn't pass/blend/interact as their identified gender, losing too much by way of family/friends/job, or conflating mental health issues unrelated to being trans.

Many trans people go through a lot of self doubt before they get to the point of deciding to transition. The doubt can even continue during the early months especially if there are issues like rejection and loss going on. Some trans people vehemently wish they weren't trans and yet still ultimately go on to transition and live happier lives - their desire to not be trans would generally stem from a recognition that there is so much at stake and that our cis-normative society has stacked the odds well in favour of being cis.

If you could have a male body by pressing a button, would you press it? Sounds to me like you would without hesitation and therein lies the answer to your question...

Just re-orient how you are thinking about it.  Instead of am I trans or not? Think, do I want to transition or not? (whatever that means to you at this point in time in scope ) The relative level of your 'trans-ness' vs whatever you think you should be feeling to really be 'trans' is irrelevant this context, and the relevant question of "how do I want to move forward?" can be answered.

I'd recommend talking through all this with a therapist so you can better understand your motivations to transition. It's possible that you're cis and would regret transition, but perhaps you're nonbinary or you're getting caught up in the semantics of what it means to feel male or masculine. Some questions you could ask yourself (and share with us if you want) are... How do you personally understand the distinction between wanting to be a guy vs. not feeling like a guy? What about how you feel is masculine? What about being ftm sounds desirable to you? If you transitioned, what do you expect would change in your life (both for better and worse)?

I dated someone who felt a bit like that; we broke up because I simply couldn't stand being with someone in such deep denial.  Frankly, I think that if you are questioning your gender identity to this degree, it is HIGHLY likely that yes, you are trans.  You said it yourself that you know you aren't cis, right?  I think the first step to make (don't worry-I'm not gonna tell you to see a therapist ) is to make in inventory of where you want to end up.  Do you want to transition, but not look like a bearded, muscular cis guy?  That's absolutely fine.  You need to define what you need to feel comfortable in your skin; not every trans person hates the thought of being trans. 

Another thought: Being masuline and being male are two, totally different things.  One of my best friends, a trans guy, is feminine as they come-he does drag (looks stunning when he does it too), wears jewelry, and everything.  Similarly, a girl can absolutely be masculine.  I think you need to decide, independent of any outside variables (trans or cis), what you want to look like, what body you'd like to have-all of this based on your own opinions.  Chances are, if you're thinking about it this much, you are.  Hopefully visualizing things might help you gain some clarity.

Thanks everyone I do have a therapist (2 actually..) but I haven't brought this up yet. My appointments seem to be timed precisely when I'm feeling relatively pretty good and have nothing to talk about.. 

[/quote]

Quote from: spacerace on February 03, 2015, 01:41:36 PM
Instead of am I trans or not? Think, do I want to transition or not? (whatever that means to you at this point in time in scope ) The relative level of your 'trans-ness' vs whatever you think you should be feeling to really be 'trans' is irrelevant this context, and the relevant question of "how do I want to move forward?" can be answered.

Thing is, my answer to that (say, 80% of the time) would be a definite yes I want to transition. The other 20% of the time is probably me wondering whether I'd be fine staying this way, then I think of all the things that led me to this thinking, and I go back to thinking I want to transition.

Quote from: kast on February 03, 2015, 06:46:01 PM
Some questions you could ask yourself (and share with us if you want) are... How do you personally understand the distinction between wanting to be a guy vs. not feeling like a guy? What about how you feel is masculine? What about being ftm sounds desirable to you? If you transitioned, what do you expect would change in your life (both for better and worse)?

Let's see.. well the first question is not so easy. I guess maybe the fact that I've spent most of my life around girls exclusively means I don't know all that much about what it means to be a guy or the world of guys in general. Sometimes it feels like yes I'd want to be a guy, but how do I know what it's like to be a guy to know whether I identify with that at all. I'm not out as trans (oh look, this is my answer right here?) to most people, and I guess it bothers me that when I'm around guys they clearly see me as female, while my female friends would draw some sort of distinction between us (ex. not talking to me about guys or make up or whatever). Some of my closer friends (girls) have even told me that they don't see me as female, though I'm not sure what they mean by that. When I think about the possibility of taking T, there are 2 things I'd really want from it and 2 things I wouldn't particularly welcome: I'd absolutely love for my voice to drop and be able to build muscle and lose that hip and thigh fat. I'm not all that enthusiastic about male balding or the growth that happens down there, but I don't think these two things would stop me from taking T if it ever comes to that.

What about how I feel is masculine? Hmm I'd say primarily I think my emotional reactions? I feel awesome when I'm in a situation where I'm the "rational" person and the other (female) person is pretty emotional or something like that. But more generally, I don't identify with anything that can be seen as stereotypically feminine. Often I don't get how girls think. Thing with masculinity and femininity is that it's very much embedded in stereotypes, which ends up drawing a very two-dimensional image of what it means to be masculine or feminine. So other than comparing myself to what the stereotype is, I don't see how else to go about this. Probably if I had to put myself on a scale of masculine to feminine, I'd probably be somewhere between the middle and the masculine side. Not really 100% masculine, but at least 75%? My personality on the other hand (which I think could be influenced by not being comfortable with who I am?) isn't a particularly masculine personality, I'm pretty quiet, introverted (which doesn't say much, but isn't stereotypically male), more passive than active.. yeah I don't know.

What about being ftm sounds desirable to me? If I transitioned, what do I expect would change in my life?
When I first began toying with the idea of being trans, I thought to myself, "well this explains all my problems! This solves everything!" and I also recall telling one of my friends on several occasions in the past that my life would be much easier if I were a guy, and she always replied in the affirmative. I'd be able to dress and present the way I want, I think this is the biggest one for me. I've always wanted a deeper voice. I'd be able to marry a girl (being muslim I can't do that as female). There's probably more that I can't think of right now. But this is all a romantic picture that isn't going to help much. For one, I'd probably lose most of my extended family (some of which I see weekly, so this isn't some sort of once a year, I can't see my family on christmas kinda thing). I'd have to learn how to be a guy.. for one. I live in a gender-segregated society so I have little interaction with the "opposite" gender, so I'd be left with no friends (to start with) basically because I don't know that many guys that aren't my direct relatives..

My ideal body, at this moment, I think would be a masculine figure (fat distribution-wise), no dangly things on my chest, not super bulky but defined visible muscles, and I just don't know about what's between the legs, I guess it doesn't matter to me either way.. I'd probably want an adam's apple too. Don't know about hairiness either, but maybe because I'm already pretty hairy as a female..

Sometimes I think that the reason I keep going back and forth is because I don't know if I'll ever be able to transition (it's out of the question for me if I can't find justification that it's islamically allowed). Otherwise I think I'd probably have socially transitioned already or at least be in the process of doing that.. I feel like I keep answering this question to myself every time I make a post on here, and then I go back and revert to being uncertain...

Definitely talk to a therapist before you do anything. Both of my exes had thought they were trans and then later figured out they weren't. I've also had two friends do it.

Tends to make me feel bad because I'm usually the one who introduces them to what trans is to begin with...

Quote from: darkblade on February 04, 2015, 11:02:31 PM
Thanks everyone I do have a therapist (2 actually..) but I haven't brought this up yet. My appointments seem to be timed precisely when I'm feeling relatively pretty good and have nothing to talk about.. 

Thing is, my answer to that (say, 80% of the time) would be a definite yes I want to transition. The other 20% of the time is probably me wondering whether I'd be fine staying this way, then I think of all the things that led me to this thinking, and I go back to thinking I want to transition.
Let's see.. well the first question is not so easy. I guess maybe the fact that I've spent most of my life around girls exclusively means I don't know all that much about what it means to be a guy or the world of guys in general. Sometimes it feels like yes I'd want to be a guy, but how do I know what it's like to be a guy to know whether I identify with that at all. I'm not out as trans (oh look, this is my answer right here?) to most people, and I guess it bothers me that when I'm around guys they clearly see me as female, while my female friends would draw some sort of distinction between us (ex. not talking to me about guys or make up or whatever). Some of my closer friends (girls) have even told me that they don't see me as female, though I'm not sure what they mean by that. When I think about the possibility of taking T, there are 2 things I'd really want from it and 2 things I wouldn't particularly welcome: I'd absolutely love for my voice to drop and be able to build muscle and lose that hip and thigh fat. I'm not all that enthusiastic about male balding or the growth that happens down there, but I don't think these two things would stop me from taking T if it ever comes to that.

What about how I feel is masculine? Hmm I'd say primarily I think my emotional reactions? I feel awesome when I'm in a situation where I'm the "rational" person and the other (female) person is pretty emotional or something like that. But more generally, I don't identify with anything that can be seen as stereotypically feminine. Often I don't get how girls think. Thing with masculinity and femininity is that it's very much embedded in stereotypes, which ends up drawing a very two-dimensional image of what it means to be masculine or feminine. So other than comparing myself to what the stereotype is, I don't see how else to go about this. Probably if I had to put myself on a scale of masculine to feminine, I'd probably be somewhere between the middle and the masculine side. Not really 100% masculine, but at least 75%? My personality on the other hand (which I think could be influenced by not being comfortable with who I am?) isn't a particularly masculine personality, I'm pretty quiet, introverted (which doesn't say much, but isn't stereotypically male), more passive than active.. yeah I don't know.

What about being ftm sounds desirable to me? If I transitioned, what do I expect would change in my life?
When I first began toying with the idea of being trans, I thought to myself, "well this explains all my problems! This solves everything!" and I also recall telling one of my friends on several occasions in the past that my life would be much easier if I were a guy, and she always replied in the affirmative. I'd be able to dress and present the way I want, I think this is the biggest one for me. I've always wanted a deeper voice. I'd be able to marry a girl (being muslim I can't do that as female). There's probably more that I can't think of right now. But this is all a romantic picture that isn't going to help much. For one, I'd probably lose most of my extended family (some of which I see weekly, so this isn't some sort of once a year, I can't see my family on christmas kinda thing). I'd have to learn how to be a guy.. for one. I live in a gender-segregated society so I have little interaction with the "opposite" gender, so I'd be left with no friends (to start with) basically because I don't know that many guys that aren't my direct relatives..

My ideal body, at this moment, I think would be a masculine figure (fat distribution-wise), no dangly things on my chest, not super bulky but defined visible muscles, and I just don't know about what's between the legs, I guess it doesn't matter to me either way.. I'd probably want an adam's apple too. Don't know about hairiness either, but maybe because I'm already pretty hairy as a female..

Sometimes I think that the reason I keep going back and forth is because I don't know if I'll ever be able to transition (it's out of the question for me if I can't find justification that it's islamically allowed). Otherwise I think I'd probably have socially transitioned already or at least be in the process of doing that.. I feel like I keep answering this question to myself every time I make a post on here, and then I go back and revert to being uncertain...

I cannot tell you how to proceed or anything like that, but going by this-dude, you're clearly a dude.

Quote from: darkblade on February 03, 2015, 12:31:27 PM
I'm definitely not genderfluid, I can't recall a day in my life where I felt more feminine than masculine. The nonbinary area is a bit more complex to navigate though. The only trans person I know personally is nonbinary, and in our conversations I remember them saying that they identify very strongly in the middle, while in response I recall saying that I'm definitely much more masculine than feminine and therefore I'm pretty sure I'm not nonbinary. But still I don't know, I think even if I did end up concluding I was nonbinary I'd still end up transitioning if given the chance. I guess my main struggle is figuring out the line between masculinity and maleness?  If that makes any sense..

I just want to point out that nonbinary does not necessarily equal squarely in the middle. Nonbinary literally means anything that's neither precisely male nor precisely female.

Buffalo Bill in the movie "The silence of the lambs" was identified as pseudo-transsexual. And some analysis on this subject:

http://www.academia.edu/5543796/Close_Critical_Reflection_of_Diane_Dubois_Seeing_the_female_body_differently_gender_issues_in_The_Silence_of_the_Lambs

barbie~~

@ darkblade: though we discussed this briefly on the other thread where I had similar questions, I just thought I'll say a few things here.
First of all, thanks a lot for being so frank about yourself. I can totally relate to almost everything you've written, except I'm looking at it from the MtF side.
I too have spent most of my life around guys, at least until I got married, so I keep asking myself how much of me considering myself female is genuine and not just based on stereotypes. I too have mixed feelings about the various changes involved in transitioning, but if I could do it all in an instant and be like any other cis female, I would do it right away. I too struggle with the possible repercussions of transitioning in a largely conservative country (India), though I do not have to worry about justifying it on religious grounds.

I don't really have an answer to your question, but I just wanted to assure you that you are not alone.

Quote from: darkblade on February 04, 2015, 11:02:31 PM
Thing is, my answer to that (say, 80% of the time) would be a definite yes I want to transition. The other 20% of the time is probably me wondering whether I'd be fine staying this way, then I think of all the things that led me to this thinking, and I go back to thinking I want to transition.

There is no reason you can't entertain the 80% with very small baby steps to figure out how you feel about things.  I don't know what steps you have all ready taken or what your living situation is relative to family members who might notice and object, but you can get male-cut clothes, a binder, a male haircut, etc

There are still even smaller things you can try that may escape notice- male soap and shampoo, male underwear

As soon as I was able to take small steps like the above, the more it came clear to me how about I felt about transitioning. If you haven't put a binder on and looked at your reflection yet, you really should try to get ahold of one, even if you only wear it when you can get away with it. Seeing myself with a flat chest was a really decisive moment for me - I recommend it for anyone who is questioning things but doesn't know where to begin.

Remember, you don't have to decide everything right now all at once.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 05, 2015, 12:04:16 AM
I cannot tell you how to proceed or anything like that, but going by this-dude, you're clearly a dude.

Made me laugh xD

Quote from: spacerace on February 05, 2015, 10:50:47 AM
If you haven't put a binder on and looked at your reflection yet, you really should try to get ahold of one, even if you only wear it when you can get away with it. Seeing myself with a flat chest was a really decisive moment for me - I recommend it for anyone who is questioning things but doesn't know where to begin.

I started taking small steps right after I started questioning. The binder thing especially though, can't really look at myself without my binder on. Just doesn't feel nice. I was so happy I felt like running around campus "showing off" my (flat) chest the first time I wore a binder, was kinda a funny feeling.

Binary isn't even really a thing. Nobody is ever 100% binary, else men would be massive hairy lumberjacks from hell that smoke tobacco out of a pipe and drive a truck, and all women would look and act like... well, Barbie. Maybe it's just me, but I've always felt the term 'non-binary' was redundant. Not to offend anyone or anything.

I've always seen gender as a spectrum. 

male ------------------------ female

If you lean closer to the male side you're generally male, and if you lean closer to the female side, generally female. Note that this has nothing to do with gender roles, but usually people of certain genders are just more comfortable in the related gender role. I tend to dress/portray myself masculine because it's what I'm most comfortable wearing. But I could also go around wearing a dress and feel 100% male. It just depends on your own comfort.

Something that helped me was picturing myself in the future.  I couldn't see a future for myself as a man that was happy.  That wasn't what I wanted.  In the future, if I'm a woman, then I'm okay with myself.  I'm happy as an older female, completely unhappy as an older male.

Another thing is really to focus on what you'd want to physically change, because that's what is really the important aspect of physical transition.  I started out not really wanting boobs or SRS, but these days I'm a bit dysphoric about my genitals and although I'm not dysphoric about my lack of boobs, I would want them to wear any of the clothes that I like. 

Quote from: Ara on February 06, 2015, 11:28:33 PM
Something that helped me was picturing myself in the future.  I couldn't see a future for myself as a man that was happy.  That wasn't what I wanted.  In the future, if I'm a woman, then I'm okay with myself.  I'm happy as an older female, completely unhappy as an older male.

This is also a good test. I could not even picture myself as a middle aged to older woman. The only thoughts I had surrounding aging as a woman involved disgust.

Also, I waffled about starting T at the very beginning, but I knew without a doubt as soon as I learned what top surgery was that it was absolutely essential. I worried about social rejection with a full transition and not passing.

My final test was to tell myself I 100% was not going to transition. That lasted a few days at most. I kept going back it in my head. It was pretty clear there was no way I could not do it.  And by 'it' I mean start taking testosterone specifically, which pretty much means a social transition.

Quote from: darkblade on February 06, 2015, 11:22:30 AM
I started taking small steps right after I started questioning.

What decision do you need to make right at this moment? As in, do you know whatever the procedure is for where you live to get on hormones? Have you already done it and are just deciding whether or not to pull the final trigger? More importantly, are there therapists with experience working with trans people around?

If so, seek one out, refine your thoughts about how you feel, and move forward when you are ready. There is no clear easy definition of who is trans or not, so trying to decide if you fit it will only result in frustration.

One final thing I would suggest doing (if possible of course) since you mentioned not liking your chest is start saving a chunk of money that could be used for top surgery if necessary. It will likely take awhile anyways. Then you will feel like you are doing something that will be in place if you ready for it while you decide and find out more about how you feel - if not, then you have a chunk of money in savings for whatever.

If a cis person starts believing they are trans then they probably are trans.