This post is long, so sorry about that. Ultimately, it is about how hormone use in pregnant women could cause transgender babies - specifically in context of trans guys, so if that interests you - read on.

I am always looking for answers about why people are transgender - the science side of it. I've been wading through a bunch of threads here where some very informed people were talking about hormones in the womb. They were talking about it in context of DES and trans women, and as I am FTM and was born in 1984, it is not applicable to me, but I did find the information very enlightening in a general sense. There were, however, a few posts speculating about what could cause FTM development with the use of hormones during pregnancy, so I wanted to bring that discussion over here specifically.

My knowledge of hormones and development is very, very limited, so please excuse my gross over simplification. So if my understanding of this is wrong, please correct me.

As I understand it, there are stages of sexual differentiation in fetal development, with the body developments taking place first and the brain second. If a fetus is exposed to cross sex hormones or is prevented from getting the right hormones during key stages, you get the development of the opposite gender, and then depending on when it happens and to what degree, you can get an inter-sex or a transgender baby.

Just understanding it at this level has helped me process my own feelings about being transgender. This explanation makes sense, and I really wish it would start showing up in places, at least generally, when transgender people are talked about in the media instead of some journalist musing about the social construction of gender. Anyways.

But, of course, I still want to know what happened to me specifically.

My mom had 5 miscarriages before having me, and then had a difficult birth and I was delivered by c-section. She called me her 'miracle baby' growing up and that it was all 'thanks to the progestins.'  I am pretty sure she was full to the brim of synthetic hormones to prevent miscarriage when she was pregnant with me, and likely was during the years she was trying to get pregnant. I know (pretty sure at least) that synthetic progesterone was given to pregnant women to prevent miscarriage, and it is given during the same timeframe in the pregnancy where sexual differentiation of brain development takes place.

I never thought anything about this in connection to my trans-ness until there were a few posts on a couple of the threads about how hormone use in pregnant woman could cause FTM transsexualism.

On those posts , I think it was talked about in context of synthetic hormones binding to androgen receptors in the developing fetus (this is where my understanding starts to unravel) and leading to male brain development after female body development had been put in place.

Now, my brain that has been seeking answers is willing to accept this explanation, and I really want to just tell myself "it was the drugs to prevent miscarriage" and have my answer and be done with it.

I am curious though...because this is really just speculation in the end. Does anyone else know that their mom had miscarriages before they had you? Implying that she may have been given a drug to prevent it the next time around. Or that she was given hormones during pregnancy for whatever reason.

There were also posts in one of the threads about how trans people show up in high stress pregnancies, such as those leading to adoptions, and also in cases with twins, due to the stress causing hormonal imbalances. So, of course there is more than one reason a person could end up trans. People were trans way before pregnant women were given synthetic hormones of course.

I dunno, I just feel like I found the smoking gun to why I am trans, at least at a level my brain that really wants answers is willing to accept, so I wanted to see what other people thought.

My mother had three normal births, no miscarriages, no difficulty getting pregnant. As far as I'm aware, the only drug she had ever taken was birth control.
Maybe the hormones went wrong in the womb? Idk

It's an interesting theory, and it'd be nice if scientists would pick it up and do some research, but we all know that's not going to happen. 

My mom had a miscarriage after me, but not before as far as I know, so that doesn't seem to be my reason. But I do find it interesting that three out of three children were born/would have been born female. I have an older sister (who's cis and straight) and would've had a younger sister as well, so that's something I'd probably look into for research.

I believe they did find some evidence to support the idea that if one person has a lot of male babies, the younger ones are more likely to be gay because of hormone imbalances. I don't know if that transfers over to female babies because I believe the reason was the large amount of T in the pregnant person's body to make males causes a surge of E to make up for it. I don't know, but it's interesting and I certainly think it'd be worth looking into.

My mother had 2 miscarriages (would've been two older brothers) before having me.
I'm guessing T was running wild in the womb and that affected me.

I think I'm familiar with the thread you mentioned.

My mother was given progesterone when she was pregnant with me. I'm the first born and she didn't have any miscarriages before me (she had one years later though) but she did have me at a later age so I believe that's why the doctors gave it to her. I think that's the only hormone she was given and I'm not sure if she took anything when she was pregnant with my younger siblings. I had a really difficult birth, I got stuck in the birth canal and had to be pulled out with forceps, but I'm not sure if the doctors gave her anything during that or if it would cause any changes in my hormone levels that late in my birth. I can try asking my mother more about it if I find a good way to broach the subject then post more about what I find out.

I don't like how a lot of people seem to think that being transgender is merely mental or a choice either. If there was more proof that being transgender is basically an intersex condition of the brain it would be life changing for many people.

I'm interested in seeing what others have to say about this.  I'm also very interested in the science behind this.  There seems to be a fair bit for transwomen, but studies with transmen are a lot more sparse. I think it's really important that there's more evidence showing the intersex conditions of transsexuals' brains. There just aren't enough studies.  That said, there have been studies that were done with very, very reliable results, so little room for possible deviation. I feel that this one particular study should hold a lot of weight because of that, even though it was only one study with relatively fewer people involved. But we really need more like that.

I'm the fourth child from my mother who had 4 pregnancies and, as far as I know, there were never any complications for any of us.  However, from what I've gathered, she was under a great amount of stress and also depression at the time she was pregnant with me. So, I dunno, maybe there's something in that.

Joined to respond and say thank you for this post.

I remember years ago when I told my mother I was a lesbian she was very upset/concerned because she said she'd taken some sort of drug during her pregnancy that occasionally had masculinizing effects. (Of course, my response at the time was to be like "Masculinizing effects? I'm just a lesbian, nothing masculine about me, no worries mom!")

I've often wondered about what that drug was and whether it might have something to do with my gender stuff since then, but couldn't figure out what it might have been. I did read about severe effects from progesterone, but since my genitals were normal enough looking I figured that couldn't have been it. But, my mom definitely had a miscarriage before she had me, and since I was born in 1978 and my mother was in her mid thirties it makes sense that she could have been treated with it.

It makes some common sense that a drug that can cause masculinized genitals in severe cases could also have more subtle effects that showed up gradually or at puberty in other cases. I'm off to check google scholar to see if there's been any other work done on this!

Edited to add: A preliminary search of google scholar turned up this: https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=JFpq6hYQRhQC&oi=fnd&pg=PA41&dq=progestin+during+pregnancy+ftm+trans&ots=FkmdAI-7uz&sig=GO_1gR9Xpp-Co5g7GSMXfAVw2Vs#v=onepage&q&f=false which is suggestive although it doesn't specifically discuss the use of progesterone in pregnant women.

When I asked my mom about any sort of medication she took while pregnant she said she hadn't taken anything at all. I was the first kid and i recall her saying it wasn't a particularly easy pregnancy, but I don't know much about the details. My sister came three years after but she hasn't been able to get pregnant since though.

I'm sort of dying to find evidence that being trans counts as an intersex condition though, if I can do that I might have a chance at transition..

as far as my knowledge goes, my mother wasn't taking any hormones or anything while pregnant with me. however, she was definitely under stress, and my older brother was quite late as well, if that could possibly have anything to do with it. anyways, i don't believe she had any miscarriages either, either before or after me (i also have a younger sister), but i'm not certain.

here's a few links I saved when I was going through those threads I mentioned in case anyone wanted to read them. I didn't find these, so thanks to the people that posted them initially.

someone else's giant list of links:
https://lizdaybyday.wordpress.com/2014/08/14/one-stop-trans-brain-research-list/

a study about hormones in the womb done on monkeys:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146061/

a big presentation about gender identity and the brain: (I haven't watched it yet, but I saved it because it looks interesting)
http://media01.commpartners.com/AMA/sexual_identity_jan_2011/index.html

It's great that some of you people are also starting to take an interest in synthetic hormones as a cause of transness. For some time I've been banging the drum about DES as a cause of MTF transness, however, I think it's inevitable that there must also be at least some people who are FTM as a result of exposure to progestins. Although they're supposed to be mimicking a female hormone, the early progestins were all derivatives of testosterone, and, while they're only weakly androgenizing in adult women, some of them turned out to have  quite strong androgenic effects on female fetuses.

There's a wikipedia article about progestin-induced virilization, which makes it sound like only a very small number of babies were affected. Progestins were commonly co-prescribed with DES from about 1950 onwards though, so the total number exposed must be quite high (probably in the millions). There's definitely been a cover up with DES-induced intersex cases and there probably has with progestins too. Also, with all these hormone treatments aimed at preventing miscarriages, most of the exposure tends to happen during the second and third trimester, by which time genital development is largely complete and when the main thing going on is brain development. The result is that the brain is much more likely to be affected than the genitals.

As this excerpt from the book "Brain Sex" shows:


it's been known for some time that being prenatally exposed to medical hormones can result in lifelong changes in a person's behaviour and personality (feminization of male and masculinization of female behaviour). "Brain Sex" was published in 1989, and the research on which that excerpt was based was carried out in the 1970s (I think the "male hormone" they're referring to in that excerpt is both danazol and progestins, both of which have been shown to cause masculinization of female fetuses).

This paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146061/

provides a good introduction to the history behind the discovery that it's hormones and not genes that determine which sex you develop as, and the importance of testosterone (and its derivative DHT) in driving masculinization of the brain. Basically, hormones have two distinct sets of effects, depending on what stage of your life exposure takes place. During your prenatal development, they have "organizational" effects, directing first your reproductive organs and then your brain to either develop as male or female. During puberty and in your adult life, they have "activational" effects, in which they bring to life all the stuff that was laid down during the organizational phase. The activational effects are only temporary, but whatever happens during the organizational period is permanent.

If you read through that paper, you'll see that, in some of the experiments, they created what were basically FTM Rhesus monkeys (genetically female and with female genitals, but with male behaviour), just by injecting the mother with testosterone (or DHT) during the second half of the pregnancy.

DHT is the main hormone that drives male genital development, and from those experiments we know that it can also induce male brain development. Since some baby girls ended up with severely virilized genitals due to progestin exposure, that makes it almost certain that some ended up with severely virilized brains due to progestins too. In fact, as with DES, because of the way most exposure to these hormone treatments tends to happen later in the pregnancy, it's far more likely that brain development will be affected rather than genital development.

Here's the Wikipedia article about progestin-induced virilization:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progestin-induced_virilisation

A couple of articles about the hidden history of mass prenatal progestin exposure:
http://prenatalexposures.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/worse-than-thalidomide-consequences-of.html
http://www.germlineexposures.org/jill-escher-qa.html

Hopefully that helps!

I myself was the first pregnancy and a very easy one. I was premature due to ammonia poisoning but other than that I caused my mother no problems. She didn't even have morning sickness with me. I think I know more about her pregnancy with me than my dad does at this point because I wanted to find some answers.

It would certainly be interesting if they could find some sort of common thread in development.

DES isn't known to be a cause of FTMs, only MTFs, afaik. DES is an estrogen product (rather high dose). Have heard that intrauterine hormones. But can be completely naturally introduced. I have never heard that miscarriages have anything to do with this, but it is possible of course.

--Jay

Transgender people have been around since long before DES, and we will continue to be long after it was discontinued.    I would think that just about anything that disrupts a pregnant woman's endocrine system could cause a brain to masculinize or fail to do so regardless of the fetus' chromosomal makeup.

Or it was this guy:  ... /snark

Quote from: spacerace on February 10, 2015, 07:20:21 PM
here's a few links I saved when I was going through those threads I mentioned in case anyone wanted to read them. I didn't find these, so thanks to the people that posted them initially.

someone else's giant list of links:
https://lizdaybyday.wordpress.com/2014/08/14/one-stop-trans-brain-research-list/

a study about hormones in the womb done on monkeys:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146061/

a big presentation about gender identity and the brain: (I haven't watched it yet, but I saved it because it looks interesting)
http://media01.commpartners.com/AMA/sexual_identity_jan_2011/index.html

Thanks for thelinks!

Quote from: aleon515 on February 10, 2015, 09:15:23 PM
DES isn't known to be a cause of FTMs, only MTFs, afaik. DES is an estrogen product (rather high dose). Have heard that intrauterine hormones. But can be completely naturally introduced. I have never heard that miscarriages have anything to do with this, but it is possible of course.

--Jay

There's a regular poster at Laura's Playground who's FTM and a DES baby, so there's exceptions to every rule. However, you're right, DES is mainly associated with MTF transsexuality. I've spent quite a lot of time since 2011 looking at it's effects, due to the fact that I've had a lot of the same life experiences as genetic males who were exposed to DES commonly seem to go through, similar hormonal problems, and I was born with one of the types of genital abnormalities that appear to be linked to DES exposure too. The main difference is that I've got a gender identity which is kind of a mixture of male and female rather than being fully female (which is what usually seems to happen with DES). Based on what I've read about fetal development, I think the exposure in my case must have only been during the second trimester, so I had normal male development during the first and third trimesters (whereas DES was usually administered for both the second and third trimesters). I've got no way of confirming this though, since the only person who knew for sure what happened while she was pregnant with me passed away in 2010.

However, in the course of finding out about DES, I've been reading a fair bit about progestins (which are a second type of synthetic hormones that have seen a lot of use for preventing miscarriages). Although they haven't achieved the same level of publicity as DES, progestins are known to have been the cause of some cases of intersex in genetic females, and there's good theoretical reasons for thinking progestin exposure could have caused some (and potentially quite a lot of) cases of FTM transsexuality. Hence, I'm trying to share what I know with my FTM brothers!

If you look at the stuff I've posted recently on the DES thread, the CDC are blatantly lying about the effects of DES. If they're lying about the effects of one of these hormone treatments and its links to transsexuality, chances are they're hiding stuff connected to other hormone treatments too. Considering that these substances could be the underlying cause of a lot of us being trans, I think the more of us looking into their effects the better!

I wonder if something was found to cause being trans if people would make sure it wouldnt result in more trans people...?

Quote from: Jill F on February 10, 2015, 09:28:19 PM
Transgender people have been around since long before DES, and we will continue to be long after it was discontinued.    I would think that just about anything that disrupts a pregnant woman's endocrine system could cause a brain to masculinize or fail to do so regardless of the fetus' chromosomal makeup.

Or it was this guy:  ... /snark

Very true. I was thinking about this and I started to wonder what the ramifications would be if the medical community tried to make this links. In that event, people like me and those who came before would be considered "false transgender". I have no doubt about myself and like sure others have no doubt.

I think trying to find something causes the brain/body mix up would be valuable and important but I certainly know that I would be uncomfortable with doctors telling me that my mothers medical history means I'm not me.

Edit to add: to clarify I'm not saying that chemicals don't affect the development of the brain. I meant linking trans to one specific hormone like DES. We don't fully understand how the human body works at this time. It would be a very big medical discovery if could learn the mysteries of human biology

Quote from: hiddenfeatherscanfly on February 11, 2015, 01:20:26 AM
I wonder if something was found to cause being trans if people would make sure it wouldnt result in more trans people...?

I wonder if I would object to that. This is a lot of heartache to wish upon someone.

My post was really long so I just wanted to clarify things:

-people are trans for all kinds of reasons...but those reasons are undoubtedly rooted in biological brain development influenced by hormones (hormones generally, not just hormones given to pregnant women). I find this information empowering, personally, instead of a denial of identity. We are all who we are because of the biological make up of our brains, trans or not.

-I was talking about synthetic progesterone, not DES. DES was a drug given to women and discounted before 1970 I think. It was estrogen based, thus its association with trans women not trans men.  The DES threads on this forum are where I first saw the mention of progesterone (not the same as DES) in relation to FTM brain development.

-My post was about synthetic progesterone and FTMs, as *one* cause of hormone imbalance, not DES and not the only cause. I should have made this clear since it was kinda buried in the middle of my long post. Synthetic progesterone is what binds to androgen receptors.

Quote from: aleon515 on February 10, 2015, 09:15:23 PM
DES isn't known to be a cause of FTMs, only MTFs, afaik. DES is an estrogen product (rather high dose). Have heard that intrauterine hormones. But can be completely naturally introduced. I have never heard that miscarriages have anything to do with this, but it is possible of course.

--Jay

--------

Quote from: Jill F on February 10, 2015, 09:28:19 PM
Transgender people have been around since long before DES, and we will continue to be long after it was discontinued.    I would think that just about anything that disrupts a pregnant woman's endocrine system could cause a brain to masculinize or fail to do so regardless of the fetus' chromosomal makeup.

Or it was this guy:  ... /snark

I agree that people are trans probably for any reason that hormones can go wrong in the womb.

The problem with doing studies of any kind is separating out any kind of causal mechanism. For example, even when I know my mom was on progesterone, she also did have 5 miscarriages for a reason. I think maybe she should have taken the hint from her womb and stopped trying, honestly. So, it could have just been her toxic womb with some massive hormone imbalance that caused trans development in my brain, or whatever it is that happened. That many miscarriages probably puts a lot of stress on a body at the very least.

-----

Quote from: HughE on February 11, 2015, 01:01:54 AM
However, in the course of finding out about DES, I've been reading a fair bit about progestins (which are a second type of synthetic hormones that have seen a lot of use for preventing miscarriages). Although they haven't achieved the same level of publicity as DES, progestins are known to have been the cause of some cases of intersex in genetic females, and there's good theoretical reasons for thinking progestin exposure could have caused some (and potentially quite a lot of) cases of FTM transsexuality. Hence, I'm trying to share what I know with my FTM brothers!

Thank you for all the information you have posted Hugh. I have more reading to do. It has been really helpful - I appreciate it. One thing I was going to ask you, as I saw it mentioned on of those threads - were you talking about progestins still in use causing both FTM and MTF development in different ways? How does that work in terms of what binds to what receptors, and when?

Many people want to know why they are they way they are, so speculating about it, as long as it is understood that is all is at least in this context, can be helpful, at least to me, in processing how I think about myself, so seriously - thanks a ton.

Quote from: Contravene on February 10, 2015, 01:26:40 PM
I don't like how a lot of people seem to think that being transgender is merely mental or a choice either. If there was more proof that being transgender is basically an intersex condition of the brain it would be life changing for many people.

To me, this is the most important takeway from all this - no matter if it is synthetic hormones given to pregnant women or stress causing high levels of male hormones in the womb, or whatever... This isn't some wibbly wobbly flight of fancy based on postmodern gender interpretations, it is just biology.

The science of it would be a powerful weapon against otherwise intelligent people who dismiss us out of hand for playing identity politics alone. Responses like, "well, I decided I was a unicorn, so you must acknowledge me as such" are what I mean.

Also helpful when coming out to people when you can preface it with the generalized hormone balance in the womb caused by unknown reasons explanation, I would think.