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Why do we have in germany so bad results?

Started by galaxy, February 08, 2015, 04:51:12 PM

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Obfuskatie


Quote from: Dahlia on February 09, 2015, 10:46:21 AM
I've heard this many, many times before...not only from MTF tourists but also from cis male and female tourists.
And not only having seen thai MTF in bars, clubs, 'resorts' etc, but also in daily life in the streets, working as shopassistants etc.

So, whenever I hear this 'they look so feminine, you  just can't tell they're MTF' I always reply with: 'If that's so, you would have seen ciswomen, most certainly not MTF.....'

I've been to thailand for an extended period a couple of times, and I could always tell who's MTF and who's not...not only from their looks but most of them behave completely different from thai ciswomen. I didn't need to hear their (gruff) voices, I already knew beforehand.

As for the USA: I've been to CA and NYC a couple of times for extended periods too. Same story. I (and others) read MTF almost instantly because of their overall bodysizes, the way they move OR their waaaaaaaaaaayyyy overdone 'FFS' faces.
I have to admit I took some ciswomen for MTF because of their surgically overdone faces too btw.

Grass is always greener on the other side, for sure, but I wonder if you've seen pics and vids of American MTF WITHOUT or WITH other cispeople?

A pic of a MTF posing next to a ciswoman makes it instantly clear who's who because of the sizes of their heads, shoulders, trunk etc.

For some reason USA MTF are besotted with having cheekimplants, which is also a dead give away. It not only makes one's face too big but also harsh.
Or it makes facial features look like  thrown off balance.
All the above draws unwanted attention etc.just like over augmented lips and breasts.


And ehm, I guess you've heard about photoshop?


And last, but not least: the FFS faces can look great on pics, but seeing some FFS faces animated on video's makes you almost instantly wonder about their wooden faces, having trouble speaking, restricted smiles, having trouble with regular facial expressions etc.

Better stick to yourself and don't let pics and vids lead you on ;-)

P.s: taking hormones has a slight feminising effect, but it all depends on how the persoon looks from the beginning. Very masculine looking? Don't expect too much from using estrogen.
How about not characterizing those of us who have undergone FFS in such a way?  There are people who go overboard with surgery, but it is not a transgender thing.  There's a huge difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and I'm tired of people who assume they are the same.  I'm trans, and yet I know that surgery won't fix everything in me, that's what therapy is for.

Take it as a case by case basis when it comes to the individual and how effective transitioning can be.  You'd be massively surprised how many transpeople are living in stealth.  In reality, we all have the same DNA, and the sexually dimorphic traits that humans develop aren't nearly as severe as you believe.  It's why we have primary and secondary sex characteristics, primary being usually evident except for those with Kleinfelders' or who are intersex.  Secondary sex characteristics vary wildly, and although they are harder to hide than your sex organs, they are by no means definitive.


If your doctor believes you are a good candidate for transitioning, then listen to him or her and ignore negativity from strangers on a forum.  Transitioning takes patience and dedication and hope and sometimes luck.  Also make sure to do your research so you know what you are doing to and putting in your body.  And remember that transitioning is for making your exterior match how you feel.  It won't magically make you one of the sexiest women alive.  Good luck and stay positive!


Sent from Katie's iPad using Tapatalk



If people are what they eat, I really need to stop eating such neurotic food  :icon_shakefist:
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Jenna Marie

It sounds like maybe a very conservative HRT regimen?

It may also be that women are more likely to post photos to the internet if they think they're pretty, so most of the foreign women you've seen posting are self-selecting for confidence and perceived attractiveness... or maybe American women are just more egotistical. ;)

I will say this - when I went to support groups, the women most likely to turn up there were early in transition and not very passable, whereas the ones I meet online *who posted public pictures* tended to be later in transition and looked cis. I've also known far more of the latter than the former, just because the internet spans the globe versus in-person support groups.

(I have, however, also run into plenty of non-intersex trans women who've gotten great results. Might just be my luck, I guess.)
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HughE

Quote from: bibilinda on February 09, 2015, 05:23:15 PM
MANY of the US trans women with great physical results, who started after their puberty was over, are so successful because they were born intersex. ... Every single time I read about somebody mentioning a great breast size for a trans woman, such as anything above a B cup without being overweight or having breast implants, or somebody having a natural soft-looking face and a great hip to shoulder ratio, smaller bone structure including hands and feet, actually having already small breasts etc. BEFORE EVEN STARTING HRT, it invariably leads to this person being an intersex individual of any variation, but most of these women don't mention their condition on every post they make, until maybe a friend of theirs mentions it in another response "hey girl, you should mention that you were born intersex, so others know why you have such great results from your HRT"...Now, why are there so many intersex individuals in the US going for transitioning as females?
If you're talking about MTF trans folk aged over 40, a big part of the reason has to be DES. Like a lot of medicine-related things, it was used more extensively in the US than anywhere else in the world.

In her book "DES Voices: from Anger to Action", DES mother and author Pat Cody estimates that DES was used in 4.8 million pregnancies within the US, most of which resulted in a live birth (I've been told that it was used in an approximately equal number of pregnancies in countries outside the US too, although exact figures aren't available).

In short, there's over 2 million US-born male assigned DES babies out there somewhere.

If you look at some of the stuff I've posted recently in this thread:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=84224.100

You'll see that I've obtained copies of three follow up studies involving a group of people (the "Dieckmann cohort"), who originally participated in a study carried out in the 1950s, which revealed that DES was worthless as a treatment for preventing miscarriages (that didn't stop the FDA from promoting it for a further 20 years though!).

One striking difference emerged between the sons of the women given DES and the unexposed controls: the "DES sons" produced, on average, only about half as much sperm as the control group. My reasoning is that if sperm production was halved, then production of that other thing the testicles make -  testosterone - was probably halved too. That would explain why I, along with probably the majority of DES "sons" I've chatted to, have a type of body structure that 's commonly associated with intersex conditions, and other signs of having had below normal male testosterone levels all our lives.

Unfortunately, in the hormone tests they did in those 3 papers, they've left out 2 key measurements (estradiol and SHBG), which means you can't tell whether testosterone production in the DES sons group was lower, but I think if those results had been included it would have shown T production about half normal male, and E2 and SHBG probably about double what you normally get in a man (in other words, hormone levels partway between a man's and a woman's).

As you can see from some of the other stuff I've posted in that thread, the entire medical establishment seem to be running in full damage limitation mode when it comes to DES (which isn't surprising, considering what the likely public reaction would be, if word got out that they've inadvertently caused several million people to be born who are biologically male, but partly developed as female instead of male). What few studies have been carried out since 1980 appear to have had the express aim of downplaying the effects as far as possible.

In those 3 studies on the Dieckmann cohort, the participants were in their early 20s. No one's done any equivalent studies of us now we're in our 40s or older, but, based on my experiences and what I've heard others say, a lot of us start to develop health problems caused by chronic low testosterone once we hit our 40s (which I think could be the underlying factor that leads to a lot of late transitioners finally taking the plunge).

Having had lifelong below normal male T levels does undoubtedly make it a lot easier to pass as a woman post-transition, since, for starters, our bodily proportions are often more like a woman's than a man's (and it probably affects other things like how strongly our bodies respond to female hormones too).
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calicarly

Quote from: Serena ♡ on February 09, 2015, 04:26:01 AM
I odn't know about Germany, but I know that in Uk they use a different anti androgen that doesn't work as good as spiro, or at least that's what a girl from there told me, so yeah... Also I think y'all don't use progesterone.... However many girls here don't use progesterone as well... I don't use it for example.

Just to clarify.

The anti androgen more commonly used in the UK is cyproterone acetate, opposite of what you were told, it's actually much more potent and effective at blocking T compared to spiro, it isn't available in the US as it isn't FDA approved due to rare (but possible) side effects that include liver problems. spiro is also available in the UK, as are potent shots originally developed to treat hormone dependent cancers that completely halt the production of T, these are only available for girls who have expressed a want for GRS and have no interest in using their pre-op genitals for pleasure and only available if accepted into the NHS GIC pathways.

Also in regards to the original Post.

Unless there is a clear difference to the HRT regimen in Germany, I highly doubt that your observations are an accurate description of what is actually going on. As other girls say, Americans as a whole are more open about their transition and before and after results , where as Europeans tend to be a lot more reserved, and I imagine that makes for a lot more stealth stealth cases in Germany.

Also, I have a very hard time believing you have seen no results from your HRT regimen unless it really is a very low dose estrogen or a low potency t-blocker being prescribed? Apart from that, there is only one thing that I have always noticed when I have met German people and that is Germans tend to have very strong facial features, but they seem to be in dis females too and just seems an ethnic thing.

I really do think your perception isn't very accurate hun.

Hugs!! Xx
Low dose HRT-2004
Full time and full dose HRT-2009
BA/Rhinoplasty-May 2013
FFS-Aug 2014
Body contouring-Jan 2015
GRS- Feb 2016
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Anna-Maria

Hey there  ;)

I am German, and after my coming out and doing my research first in place I had a similar perception on German Trans Women compared with Trans Women especially from the US.

But soon enough I came to realize that this was just a misconception due to lopsided perspective. Like others mentioned here before, the US girls are in average far more confident about their outsome, they are more outgoing and confident about their transitioning. The mindset is right and positive framed. I learned that they are doing more on their transitioning instead of just relying on the wonders of Estrogen to come. How to dress, finding your own style also in mannerism comes off at a very early stage there.

  What if you are doubtful and hesitant about your transition, how can you expect a perfect, neatless outcome?  And it´s  almost exclusively the pretty/ passable ones in the US who get their transition timeline uploaded on YouTube or elsewhere and show off their miraculous transformation, encouraging others in following their footsteps and for passing their positivity down to the ones at the very beginning of their transition. This reinforces overall confidence. Sadly, Germans are way more reluctant in showing oneself off in this way.  It´s a matter of mentality, I guess.

But one must not forget that what also counts in is the critical mass, or the phenomenon of the big number. Out of a population of approximately 300 mn people in the US, there´s a significantly greater pool of Transgender people in absolute numbers and out of this pool you have a certain percentage of absolutely passable outcomes and therefore a higher possibility in meeting beautiful, or passable, or cis-like ones you can hold up as idols to the rest of the group.  Germany has a population of about 80 mn, inherently the pool of Transgender people is smaller in the same proportion, i.e. the percentage and equally the absolute number of positive outcomes is smaller also. Combined with the German reluctance in showing off, the misperception seems perfect.

Also  the ethnical/ genetic background can interfere. The average German/ northern European male tends to be more masculine in shape, being taller, chin more squared out, brow ridges more prominent, shoulders broader and so on, combined with a still patriarchal conception of masculinity. You will also find in German/ nothern European cis-women way more masculine traits as in southern European, not to mention Asian women. Just look at Heidi Klum´s squared chin.  If you were AMAB and got through the "normal" male puberty, even the HRT regardless of age can not reverse the sceletal structures shaped by Testosterone in the male puberty. That makes it harder to transition. Also this counts in and diminishes the possibility of good outcomes, as long as other measurements are not taken up, e.g. FFS. The same goes for clothing and make-up. If you don´t know how to dress, to accentuate your positive bodily traits and hiding or playing down the negative ones, for sure the negative ones gets the eye catcher. I mean, look at how much time and energy even cis girls are spending on clothing and make-up. If you look like a  Viking, don´t think about becoming Germany´s Next Topmodel. And this is also a matter of self-reflection, to me it makes no sense to swap the one Dysphoria with the other and mental suffering still resumes.

Estrogen can do wonders if the basis is right, i.e. you have a delicate body shape, a soft lined face and other more feminine-connoted traits you can rely on, once HRT comes into effect. If you dress in an appropriate way and style so that your clothing supports your character and the make-up softens and shapes your face decently and does not let you look like if you´re wearing war paint, then I guess not too much can go wrong.

"Think pink, but don´t wear it"
Karl Lagerfeld







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galaxy

I dont looking for any advices for myself. I'm living stealth. I'm not attractive but i living as a "real" woman in most cases. I cant go swimming or doing other activities with a naked body - but all ordinary things are fine.

My question goes more in a generally direction and yes, i guess its because of more masculine feature of germans and our "bad" HRT-regime. Most doctors want a save HRT, not a effective HRT. My own HRT wasnt save to anytime - i never focused it, i ever focused good results. On the other hand youve to accept that results depend a lot on your genes ... you can have luck or even not.
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RosieD

Quote from: Serena ♡ on February 09, 2015, 04:26:01 AM
I odn't know about Germany, but I know that in Uk they use a different anti androgen that doesn't work as good as spiro, or at least that's what a girl from there told me, so yeah... Also I think y'all don't use progesterone.... However many girls here don't use progesterone as well... I don't use it for example.

Speaking as a resident of the Sceptred Isle I would have to say that I am on that anti androgen and I don't recognise that statement. Gosrelin Acetate (brand name Zoladex) will disarm those little T factories far, far better than Spiro ever will. It was developed as an inhibitor of hormone sensitive cancers and stops the gonads dead.

Rosie
Well that was fun! What's next?
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antonia

Spiro is really quite weak, the only reason it's used over cyproterone acetate or other blockers is it's prevalence in the US due to other blockers not being FDA approved and Spiro having been around for a very long time.

You might have heard the motto "First do no harm", this is the rule doctors use and they will proscribe what ever they think is safest, the last thing they want is for you to have complications and them to explain that they gave what the medical community considers a healthy person a drug which is not approved for the purpose it was proscribed for.

Cypro plus Estradiol seems to do the trick for me, in fact my Cypro was halved to the point where there is no tablet that's small enough so I have to break them in half.
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Serena

Quote from: RosieD on February 10, 2015, 05:28:03 PM
Speaking as a resident of the Sceptred Isle I would have to say that I am on that anti androgen and I don't recognise that statement. Gosrelin Acetate (brand name Zoladex) will disarm those little T factories far, far better than Spiro ever will. It was developed as an inhibitor of hormone sensitive cancers and stops the gonads dead.

Rosie

Again, I really don't know, that's just something a British woman once told me LOL
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RosieD

Yeah, sorry. I posted without reading the rest of the thread. If I had I would have kept quiet, apologies if my message came across as knocking you over the head with the same information. Again. It wasn't meant that way.

Rosie
Well that was fun! What's next?
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calicarly

Quote from: RosieD on February 11, 2015, 07:34:22 AM
Yeah, sorry. I posted without reading the rest of the thread. If I had I would have kept quiet, apologies if my message came across as knocking you over the head with the same information. Again. It wasn't meant that way.

Rosie

I don't think you came across that way Rosie, and no worries Serena, I think we just wanted to clarify, it's kind of not right that the British woman you spoke to would share that kind of info without informing herself first, we do know lol, that's all sweetie x
Low dose HRT-2004
Full time and full dose HRT-2009
BA/Rhinoplasty-May 2013
FFS-Aug 2014
Body contouring-Jan 2015
GRS- Feb 2016
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