Quote from: katrinaw on February 11, 2015, 03:00:37 AM

By the way Sorcha your therapists seem to have been blunt or flippant.... early on

The first one to try putting me off was my family doctor, I honestly believe she thought she was being humorous. Like I was someone to make fun of  On the 2nd occasion I decided to seek help from a fairly well known Gender Psychiatrist in London. I even paid him close to a weeks wages to be told I'm trans but it's not worth perusing 

I'm a pest, I don't easily take no for an answer if I believe myself to be right 

Hugs

Sorcha 

I want to shift that "need/want" line a bit. Rather than actual suicide consider:

The death of joy.
The death of hope.
Endless gray days when nothing pleases, and...
An attitude that makes other people miserable.

I don't talk about this much but I contemplate suicide frequently, sometimes for days at a time. I haven't made an attempt since I was about six years old. (No one ever knew about it.)

The life I was living wasn't truly living. At my last PCP appointment my doctor told me that he had never seen me happier. This despite the fact that I've been unemployed for 3 and 1/2 months, I have no good prospects, my unemployment insurance has never been approved and my resources will be exhausted in a month. This despite the tremendous strain just being trans, (not the doing something about it), has put on my marriage.

I've always been one to just keep on trying, knowing it has to get better. That's especially difficult now, but I'll never commit suicide...

until I do.

I only "wanted" to transition - I wasn't desperate or suicidal, though it might have gotten to that point. I made a choice that I thought would make me happier, and it did.   I also wondered if that meant I was "really trans" or "deserved" to transition, but seeing as I had GRS and do NOT regret it, I'm inclined to say it was a strong enough want to be worth following through on even if it wasn't a life-or-death need. Plus, as this thread shows, people draw that line in different places. Ultimately, my opinion is that if you're happier and more content with what you're doing, go for it, and don't worry about how you measure up against some mythical set of Trans Rules.

(I actually also found the "must have zero doubts or don't do surgery" advice to be harmful, because I've never *not* doubted myself in my life! However, I was able to declare that I had no more doubts or fears than I did about any other major life decision I ended up being grateful for, if that made sense; I was never going to get to zero, but I also had only the average level of concern compared to how I felt about, say, switching careers.)

As has been pointing out the concept of need vs. want is very subjective.

In my mind the difference is the presence of negative consequences if something is not done, for example:

I needed to brake because otherwise I would have collided with the car in front of me.
I wanted to accelerate because it allowed me to get there faster.

In this sense I needed to transition, not because the only alternative was death but because the consequences of not transitioning and going for GRS/SRS outweighed the consequences of doing it.

My advise to people is generally do as little as you feel comfortable with, if you can live a happy life 90% of the time in the body you were born with then that might be a better option.

In my case I could have gone on with my life until I died from old age but as far as being happy, lets just say I smiled so rarely that everyone thought it looked fake due to the muscles in my face not having enough exercise.

Be smart, evaluate the pro's and con's of each path and find the path that makes you happy (and those around you by extension).

definitely a lot of "what is the other option".  personally, I'm definitely not suicidal, its something i would never allow myself to do, not that the thought hasn't crossed my mind from time to time.  but what is the other option besides transitioning?  if it means spending the rest of my life being miserable with my self and hateful towards who and what i am.  that, and what if you don't transition, then the feeling get worse over time till the time comes that there no longer is an option of continuing as what you were assigned at birth, then you could have an even harder time.

i wish that id looked into being able to transition back when the feeling first started getting vocal in my life a few years ago, rather than waiting till now getting more and more miserable each passing month.

while you want to know for sure, and be certain that this is the right decision for you.  putting it off for longer than necessary more likely than not, will just make things worse.

From what it sounds like want vs need seems to be largely affected by levels of dysforia. This is all on a continuum and as most things are, if you are on an extreme side its pretty clear something is up, but if you're someone in the middle things start to get much more fuzzy. Moderate dysporia may not have that apparent -need- but that doesn't mean the desire is any less real or important. No way of knowing what is the right path, but if you're capable of doing so and you want to, I don't see why not.

My own experience: I certainly didn't NEED to transition. I never felt like a woman in a man's body (still don't feel like a woman after SRS and a year and a half fulltime). But I've always wanted to be a woman in the worst way. I'm really glad I transitioned and equally glad I got SRS. Hope this helps.

Some interesting responses.  Thanks all.

I'm going to add a TRIGGER WARNING this post.  I'll also edit the initial post to add one, seeing as we're drifting into talk of self harm.

Quote from: spooky on February 11, 2015, 01:15:33 AMEveryone should act according to what makes them happy. If it makes you happy to transition, do it!

This is probably the core of what I'm trying to explain.  I'm far happier as female, but I'm not sure I was born female.  But again, does the distinction matter other than in an academic sense?  (And is there any distinction at all?  Maybe I'm just misunderstanding my own feelings about this, and was indeed born female but just don't realize it?)

Quote from: katrinaw on February 11, 2015, 03:00:37 AMMost of us want to become a woman/female/girl, some of us also have certain needs too; if I don't I'll destroy myself.

This is also a key point.  I was clearly destroying myself and everything around me by hiding this deep desire to become a girl.  That's no way to live, and I realize that now (most of the time - I still have my moments.)  And while suicide is a very quick means to put an end to one's misery (and also destroy the lives of everyone around), is there really much of a difference between the instant damage of suicide and the cumulative damage and hurt caused by a miserable life lived in the shadow of drug and alcohol abuse, depression, self-hatred that causes constant worry and sadness from everyone who cares, at the end of which is nothing but regret from all that a life was needlessly wasted?  In essence, is a meaningless life lived unhealthily and unhappily just a long, drawn-out suicide?

(The point to the latter paragraph being that I wonder whether many of us actually realize that although we're not "suicidal" in the traditional sense, it doesn't mean we're not causing as much physical and emotional damage to ourselves and those around us in the long run through the usual consequences of long-term unfulfilled desires to live in another gender.)

Quote from: Dee Walker on February 11, 2015, 07:46:23 AM
I want to shift that "need/want" line a bit. Rather than actual suicide consider:

The death of joy.
The death of hope.
Endless gray days when nothing pleases, and...
An attitude that makes other people miserable.

I don't talk about this much but I contemplate suicide frequently, sometimes for days at a time. I haven't made an attempt since I was about six years old. (No one ever knew about it.)

The life I was living wasn't truly living. At my last PCP appointment my doctor told me that he had never seen me happier. This despite the fact that I've been unemployed for 3 and 1/2 months, I have no good prospects, my unemployment insurance has never been approved and my resources will be exhausted in a month. This despite the tremendous strain just being trans, (not the doing something about it), has put on my marriage.

I've always been one to just keep on trying, knowing it has to get better. That's especially difficult now, but I'll never commit suicide...

until I do.

I sure had a few attempts, all unsuccessful of course.

But more than that is the sheer unhappiness with life. Going to bed every night wishing I was something I did not look like at all. Looking at my daughters and thinking that they are so lucky to be born in the female gender then getting depressed that it's not me. Letting myself go, being lazy.

Now? I'm happier than ever, despite the ups and downs.  People notice it. I am no longer depressed, in pain, constantly stressed. I have taken full charge of my health and well being. Not for nothing, the fact that I visit the doctor for hormones and checkups regarding HRT regularly ensures that I go and that they look after me. When I set up the HRT appointment they insisted on being my primary care, and now I realize it's for very good reason. I have lost weight and for the first time in almost 15 years I am close to not be overweight or obese. That feels great!

I'm think I'm a little confused by your question. What are your reasons to want to be a woman,  I've known I've been wrong since very early on and I've felt the conflict sexually, socially and in my day to day encounters with my environment. I've just was born wrong. Sexually I'm attracted to both men and women. I fantasize being with men only as a woman. I'm not afraid anymore to admit I need complete surrender to a man as a woman totally. Sexually I enjoy both men and women, but mentally I'm female. HRT has shown me my true self. I don't know how far physically the process will take me at this point in my life because of my age, but really the only reason I'm still breathing is because of HRT.

This is one reason why I hate the "standard trans narrative" that EVERYONE was born this way, knew since birth, would rather die than not transition, etc.

I believe I sincerely was a cis guy, once, and was quite content being one. I wasn't born female; I was born a boy. I just... grew out of it? One day I realized that didn't fit anymore and hadn't for a while, and I changed my presentation [and eventually my body] to match. So I'm serious when I say I wanted to transition but wasn't sure if I was really trans. Yet here I am, happily living as a woman years later.

The thing is, since I've started telling this story, I've met other trans people like me, too.  Not everyone knew since they were a teenager at the latest, and not everybody *can* fit into one simplified story, even if that's what cis people and the media prefer.

The strange thing is that there's this insistence about a lot of major life choices, when the truth is not every marriage lasts forever, not ever career is perfect forever, etc. *even when they were good and satisfying choices for a time.* The absolute worst case here is that you live joyously as a woman for some period of time and then decide even though it worked for you then, it doesn't now, and you change again until you're happy. It's OK. That's what I've told myself, too, and while I still can't imagine NOT being thrilled by this new life, if that day comes in 15 or 20 or 50 years, it won't negate how I feel now or how right this decision was.

Quote from: stephaniec on February 11, 2015, 10:59:39 AMWhat are your reasons to want to be a woman . . .

For me, I think it's simply just because I want to be one.  I wasn't one in the past.  I was a guy.  I don't enjoy being male (and never have), and would strongly prefer to be female.  The steps I've taken so far - therapy, HRT, coming out to various people, clothing, extremely minor cosmetic surgery, electrolysis - all seem right and make me happier.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on February 11, 2015, 11:25:25 AM(Everything Jenna Marie said above.)

Wow.  I absolutely, completely agree.  And I get exactly where you're coming from. Thank you!

Brenda : Glad to help. I basically said what I wished someone had told me back then, because a lot of what *you've* said sounded so familiar...

Quote from: stephaniec on February 11, 2015, 10:59:39 AM
What are your reasons to want to be a woman

Isn't that the confounding thing about being trans, though?

I knew I wanted to be a woman but I had no clue why. That's what being trans does to us, right? Our brains tell us we need to be a certain gender, but we can't justify it logically. We can't give reasons, we just KNOW.

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 11, 2015, 12:08:30 PM
Isn't that the confounding thing about being trans, though?

I knew I wanted to be a woman but I had no clue why. That's what being trans does to us, right? Our brains tell us we need to be a certain gender, but we can't justify it logically. We can't give reasons, we just KNOW.

the question though was between knowing and wanting and trying to figure out the difference. I think if everyone just went by there gut feeling of just knowing there wouldn't be so much dilemma . What are the reasons for wanting . You can ask yourself that if it bothers you as far as doing what's right for yourself. Is it just sexual, is it your cultural fit , is it the way you want to be seen. is it the way you want to dress and interact with people. If your troubled by what your doing or just having questions about how you feel , there's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to analyze the situation for the greater benefit of yourself. I prefer wearing dresses , its not the only reason , but it's one of them. I don't know why I much rather have a beautiful dress on then a stuffy suite , I haven't the slightest idea , but its one of my reasons, which to me adds to my own validation for wanting to transition. I want to be seen sexually as a woman in a woman's body with feminine facial features , another reason ,which is only valid for myself in my decision to transition. I like crossing my legs in a dress while sitting, a minor consideration , but valid to me.. there are all sorts of reasons to transition, everyone is different and each as valid as the other , but they are reasons for you yourself to want to express with in society the fact that your female rather than male. There is absolutely nothing wrong with however you need or want to express yourself and there's is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning or trying to find the reason for the way you want or need to express yourself, it's all part of finding the most beneficial path to achieve the maximum amount of happiness in the short time we have on this planet.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on February 11, 2015, 11:25:25 AM
This is one reason why I hate the "standard trans narrative" that EVERYONE was born this way, knew since birth, would rather die than not transition, etc.

I believe I sincerely was a cis guy, once, and was quite content being one. I wasn't born female; I was born a boy. I just... grew out of it? One day I realized that didn't fit anymore and hadn't for a while, and I changed my presentation [and eventually my body] to match. So I'm serious when I say I wanted to transition but wasn't sure if I was really trans. Yet here I am, happily living as a woman years later.

The thing is, since I've started telling this story, I've met other trans people like me, too.  Not everyone knew since they were a teenager at the latest, and not everybody *can* fit into one simplified story, even if that's what cis people and the media prefer.

The strange thing is that there's this insistence about a lot of major life choices, when the truth is not every marriage lasts forever, not ever career is perfect forever, etc. *even when they were good and satisfying choices for a time.* The absolute worst case here is that you live joyously as a woman for some period of time and then decide even though it worked for you then, it doesn't now, and you change again until you're happy. It's OK. That's what I've told myself, too, and while I still can't imagine NOT being thrilled by this new life, if that day comes in 15 or 20 or 50 years, it won't negate how I feel now or how right this decision was.

I don't think the "standard trans narrative" applies to everyone at all, and it is acknowledged that people can and do change.

But many of us do experience gender variance and gender dysphoria from childhood. I know personally this has been with me for as long as I know myself. I did not just wake up one day and decide I want to be a woman. Instead, I was more or less at a breaking point where the desire to become one overwhelmed everything else.

But, as you said, some people may be different.

Kate : I thought I'd made it clear, but in case I didn't - there's a million possible stories and they're all valid, including the standard narrative of knowing since childhood. In fact, it presumably became the typical narrative because it was both common and comprehensible. The only problem sets in when someone like me, or perhaps Brenda or Suzi, can't find any suggestion there that it's equally OK to be/feel the way we are.

It's really weird, because some people (not you!) seem to get super defensive and assume that by claiming my own life history is true, I'm invalidating theirs... when that's the last thing I want. I think we're ALL real, all valid, and all deserving of the lives we want and/or need to live. Even if I did "just wake up one day and decide to be a woman," and it honestly kind of felt that way at the time, I'm just as deserving of happiness as anyone else.

Plenty of people show up every time to say that they fit the standard, and I believe all of them; I just want room in the overall story for people (perhaps outliers) like me too. (My wife has the same issue with the standard narrative being that almost every marriage breaks up, although the statistics suggest that in that case it isn't actually true of an overwhelming majority [about 50% survive].)

I don't usually share this, but . . . .

I always felt the trans*ness and I do not remember any time in my life that it wasn't there.  Add to that, I was one of those people who never quite passed as male.  I was taunted and beaten up in junior high and high school and accused of being really a girl or being ftm.  Even as an adult, I continually heard that I must be gay because I seemed very female or simply that "there's something very female about you that I can't put my finger on."  I learned to be somewhat good at filtering every gesture I made, but not at learning male body language.  I got good at most of the time filtering out the girly stuff from my conversations, but still had women do things like stop me and say "wait. . . I wanna know why you can do girltalk."

At one point, I learned that my body produced only tiny amounts of testosterone.  I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was something like maybe 10% of what I was supposed to have.  Whatever the number was, it was only a bit higher than what a ciswoman normally has.  So I started taking T.  And I found that it made me incredibly edgy.  I simply could not tolerate getting up to a level above what a 90 year old man would have without freaking out and going totally bonkers.  And this may be why E affects me so profoundly and so quickly--or at least that's what my doctor thinks. 

I had a girlfriend who never could understand why sex with her never interested me.  And she used to always express amazement that I had basically all female friends, some of whom were quite beautiful, but there was obviously nothing going on there either.  And she used to speculate about the possibility that I was trans*.

I quit the T because I just couldn't handled its mental effects anymore.  Later on, my girlfriend and I broke up for unrelated reasons.  I relaxed for a while.  Then I started thinking about what would come next.  And I noticed that I had let her get close to me and she could see the trans*ness.  And I decided that I basically had a choice--make peace with that part of myself, or keep hiding it and never let anyone be close to me again.

I have never had a crossdresser phase.  For me that would have been as silly as trying to resolve my gender identity conflict by Going fishing.  Crossdressing simply had nothing to do with my issues because my issues have nothing to do with clothes.  And I did not embark on it wanting to transition either.  In fact, I wanted not to.  But it became pretty clear that transitioning was the only option for me to make that peace.  And the more I really looked at the issue and inside of myself, the more obvious that became.  So . . . here I am.  Rather reluctantly, but I must admit it does seem to work for me.

I'm much better at being a woman than I ever was at being a guy.  And the role and the life and everything else fit me much better too. 

I guess I actually went from being a "don't want to" to being a "need to."  Don't know where that really puts me in terms of typical stories or atypical ones.  As a matter of fact, the only thing I know is that I am especially hoping I will not get a +1 for this post.  But that's the story for me.  Minus many details, of course.

It was somewhat similar for me, but different, I got ridiculed for being different , but I was built pretty good so I fought back and got left alone. I was an extreme cross dresser from age 4 , but I think mentally I was trying to compensate for lack of estrogen although I was never tested for that as far as I know , but the realization for me about cross dressing came much latter when I realize that wasn't helping solve my situation at all. Estrogen was and is the only solution for me. I desired it at an everyday intensity all my life , but for a variety of reasons I never was able to do it. I would of found peace so long ago if I would of been shown the path, but whatever , I'm happy now.

I can't really offer much advice on this subject since in my case it was an eventual necessity but for others reading, maybe my experience will help in some way.

When I was around 15 I discovered that I could transition but I told myself I didn't need to for whatever reason. I don't remember why exactly. What I didn't realize at the time was that all of the problems I had were due to my dysphoria. So when I was actually honest with myself, I ended up deciding to transition at around 20 years old. I think a big factor as to why I started transition was that during that time I lost a lot of my friends and didn't have anymore distractions. I was really unhappy with myself and I couldn't deny any longer what I needed to do.

So basically transition became a necessity but for me it didn't start that way initially. I thought I would of been able to bury "my want to transition" when in reality it was what I needed. I was really ignorant of my own identity just because I didn't want to face the truth.

Even growing up, I was constantly called out on my feminine social and physical behavior. Boys would say "you're such a girl" and I was accepted into the girl circles as being one of them. Being in denial and stubborn is a powerful combo lol