I have been reading "The Sociologically Examined Life" by Michael Schwalbe. Here is a quote from it,

"Just as some people think they can see race when they see a person's skin, others think they can see gender when they see an infant's genitals. 'Ah, this one has a penis-it's a boy. And this one, with a vagina, is a girl,' people say. But it is a mistake to equate genitalia with gender. while penises and vaginas are plainly part of human bodies, gender is something that humans must be taught.
If we did not assign the meanings we do to penises and vaginas, if we did not have the cultural habits of treating the possessors of these organs differently, we would not produce girls and boys, women and men. such creatures are the results of many people embracing and acting on similar ideas."

After you have read this, do you believe that gender really exists outside our perception of it?

i have also been struggling with that question... for some reason, perhaps it IS because i was brought up / taught this way, i feel safer to actualy have something binary (or how many sex/gender) in existence.
now-a-days gender male or female has been smeared beyond recognition and is just a simple identification when looking at a person walking down the street.

i am curious though...if it does not exist, will there still be the desire to be more pretty, HRT, SRS and struggles? because wouldn't it be just simply identify ourselves as female (MTF) or viceversa ?

If you take out the physical parts and the influence of human teachings, there's only a blank canvas left. Babies are born without any knowledge of these things. Everything they know is taught to them, seen by them, and interpreted by them. Even the word gender would have no meaning if it were never explained. 

Gender is socially defined, dependent on the host culture of the area. In Western culture there are sexual and biological differences that are more or less assigned by the culture to the term of gender and is then confused by those at large as being the only indicator of gender. This is why gender variance is difficult to quantify outside of a clinical process.

So yes, we could eradicate the concept of gender from the host culture but do realise that it does not mean that the way others are treated will go away. These items will just be lumped under some new sort of social structure and the discrimination would still continue. Whether or not it would be as bad or perhaps worse would be a very interesting item to think upon.

Quote from: Yvonne on October 21, 2007, 09:11:35 AM
I have been reading "The Sociologically Examined Life" by Michael Schwalbe. Here is a quote from it,

"Just as some people think they can see race when they see a person's skin, others think they can see gender when they see an infant's genitals. 'Ah, this one has a penis-it's a boy. And this one, with a vagina, is a girl,' people say. But it is a mistake to equate genitalia with gender. while penises and vaginas are plainly part of human bodies, gender is something that humans must be taught.
If we did not assign the meanings we do to penises and vaginas, if we did not have the cultural habits of treating the possessors of these organs differently, we would not produce girls and boys, women and men. such creatures are the results of many people embracing and acting on similar ideas."

After you have read this, do you believe that gender really exists outside our perception of it?

Yes. Gender is more than a certain set of behaviours or traits. It's not something that can even be defined. Every culture has its own gender norms and expectations (most of which are based on real gender differences, but exaggerated), but it's all superficial.
There's not a single behaviour or trait exclusive to either gender. Of course gender roles and expectations exist, but it's just not that simple. Gender is biologically set, the same as sexual orientation. No one 'decides' to be gay or lesbian, and no one 'decides' to be a boy or a girl.

Race, gender and so on really do not ultimately exist in society.  The word race first derived it's meaning as a population, and was never meant to classify people based on skin color or anything for that matter.  The reason people believe so highly in gender, race and so on is because we love to classify and label everything that comes into this world.  That is what we are made to do, classify everything that exists and doesn't.  Ultimately, gender was just another word that was derived in order to classify and label people part of a group.  Really it doesn't have any meaning because it is such a broad word and not everyone prefers to be part of "x" group. 

I didn't believe that genitalia dictates gender to begin with.

I often question its existence, and my relationship with it as a construct. If gender as we know it didn't exist, would I still feel the way I do? If all outward expressions of gender were socially acceptable, how would I wish to appear?

I do believe that whether it exists or not, our society seems highly invested in perpetuating the myth of binary gender. It all starts on day one of our lives, everyone wants to know are we boy or girl, and they reward proper behavior and punish transgressions.

So I guess it exists. If it is merely a figment of our imagination, it's an awfully powerful figment... 

y2g

Gender is socially learned but we are born with biological mechanisms to adapt to the appropriate gender role (or none or both).

I don't think it will go away even if we try.

The different hormones produced from between males and females produce real physical and psychological differences to a majority of people, in my opinon.

Society is there to reinforce and even exaggerate the gender differences, but the differences are not all socially engineered.

In a million years, when we have more equality between the sexes in the society, evolution might eventually allow male and females to be even more biologically similar than we are now. 

That's a pretty silly question, I think.  Of course it exists.  Just like bigfoot exists.

See, just like cultural gender assignments, bigfoot can be found worldwide.  From sasquatch, to yetis, to the apen-men of Africa - all over.  Sure, some might argue that bigfoot is mythical, but why does nearly every culture have this strong belief in his existence?  At least on a legendary, traditional level?

Kind of like gender.  Sure, girls can be soldiers.  They can be carpenters and engineers and other traidtionally male roles, just like men can nurture and take care of young and be sensitive.  But as an active bisexual, I can definitely say that one gender is generally predisposed to one thing, in general.  So there you go.  It's not exclusive, it's just a generalization.  Let's not forget, hormones do stuff to your brain.  I mean, even TS people are the result of a mismatched hormone saturation during fetal development (or so it is suspected.)

In closing, I believe bigfoot exists!

~ BB

In my point of view, you are whatever your mind says...

That is a question I have been struggling with as well Yvonne. It does exist but is it nature or is it nurture? Chemically men and women are different. Is it the chemicals that define gender?

If you took genitals out of the picture, then you would have people that preferred different things. Typically girls like some things and typically boys like others. But there is no clear cut way to define and say Boys do this and Girls do that. There is only a mixture of people that do things their way.

I think chemically estrogen can make you act one way, and testosterone gives somebody else the ability to do things somebody on estrogen just won't do. Doesn't mean they cannot do it, they just don't feel like doing it. Testosterone can make you aggressive and stronger and bigger and estrogen can make you more sensitive and weaker. I also believe chemically that it changes the way you think and feel. I think its not about what is between your legs, but about how you feel. If that defines gender, than I do believe gender does exist.

Either way it's always a combination of nature and nurture.  And if you took everything out of the picture, it depends on how the person is raised I think.  Just my 2c even though it could totally be wrong and horribly stated   But whatever! Haha