The terms and labels associated with gender are huge and weighty.  If gender identity is intrinsic and just who we are then the rest is anatomy, mannerisms and behavior that are constantly open to interpretation by ourselves and others in a changing cultural context.  Being a man or woman whether transgender or cis doesn't imply that one look like or act like some hollywood stereotype does it?  And who is really good looking?

We can understand that there are unconscious biases and that humans readily compare the known quantity to an unknown identity.  And then we have the ability to think a bit deeper and realize more complexity about what makes us whole.

As many here have emphatically stated; I was female/male before and after I transitioned.  I assume that means having a beard and/or wearing a skirt doesn't change our basic gender identity?  Getting comfortable with ourselves and our community seems to be the bigger challenge?   These are thoughts I wrestle with from time to time as a person who tries not to fuss too much about appearances.  I pass as myself everyday;-)

What do you think?

I think about this a lot. I just wish we can live in a world and dress/act anyway we want and it not matter, but I know that's a long way off. Even though I am a guy I feel that I could wear a dress and act more fem after I transition and finally feel comfortable and happy within myself, but I'm worried that I'll get mocked and judged by others. I hate that it always comes down to trans people having to play a part so we are accepted.

Quote from: Elis on February 22, 2015, 01:53:48 PM
I think about this a lot. I just wish we can live in a world and dress/act anyway we want and it not matter, but I know that's a long way off. Even though I am a guy I feel that I could wear a dress and act more fem after I transition and finally feel comfortable and happy within myself, but I'm worried that I'll get mocked and judged by others. I hate that it always comes down to trans people having to play a part so we are accepted.

Yes, that is one of my frustrations, that we too often feel we must "play a part" for acceptance.  I was way tired of trying to do that before i came out and transitioned and resist doing it to fit into yet another part.  Sounds like we are auditioning for a movie or play sometimes   And now for an Oscar level actor who so convincingly played a man.....envelope please.....

All we can do is try to be as authentic to who we are as possible. We will always face societal pressures, no matter who we are. We must do our best to shake them off, be courageous and overcome. I feel that just openly being ourselves and not what we're expected to be is the best way to change how society views us. Slowly but surely.

I agree with the general premise but:

I want to be perceived as female, because I am. If I look like a guy people won't know I'm not. And that is frustrating.

I want to be beautiful. Why? It makes me feel good about myself. I mean, which girl doesn't like attention! It's probably shallow but it's a fact of life.

Doing girly stuff is fun! It also makes me feel good about myself.

yeah, I agree with what you're saying.

I've learned that it kinda sucks being a trans guy who likes makeup and occasionally wearing skirts. it's a constant battle of comfort vs. trying desperately to pass (which is made even more difficult by being in the closet, without a binder, etc). when it comes down to self expression vs. safety, it's sad that so many people who fit outside of their gender's stereotypes and gender roles have to sacrifice a bit of who they are.

honestly, I wish we could advance as a society and realize that people come in many different forms.

Quote from: Tessa James on February 22, 2015, 01:44:19 PM
What do you think?

I think gender is complicated. It's not as simple as saying "I'm MtF, therefore I'm female." I was definitely a male a few years ago. I dressed as a male, lived as a male, and no one in my life, including myself, thought I was anything else. To say I was female back then is, IMO, too much of a stretch.

Now, if I had to choose one side of the other, it would clearly be female.

But when did I change?

When did I go from male to female? Was it the first time I put on a bra and stuffed it with rags? When I perfected my voice? Went on E? Went on spiro? Went fulltime? Got SRS? In fact all these events were superficial, having to do with my physical body and presentation. Inside, well I'm clearly different from before, and I've transitioned into some sort of non-binary sometimes-M, sometimes-F, sometimes-just-me.

Sometimes I think the difference between male and female is purely semantic - that both are concepts that are too complicated to be described by one word.

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 23, 2015, 04:54:05 AM
I think gender is complicated. It's not as simple as saying "I'm MtF, therefore I'm female." I was definitely a male a few years ago. I dressed as a male, lived as a male, and no one in my life, including myself, thought I was anything else. To say I was female back then is, IMO, too much of a stretch.

Now, if I had to choose one side of the other, it would clearly be female.

But when did I change?

When did I go from male to female? Was it the first time I put on a bra and stuffed it with rags? When I perfected my voice? Went on E? Went on spiro? Went fulltime? Got SRS? In fact all these events were superficial, having to do with my physical body and presentation. Inside, well I'm clearly different from before, and I've transitioned into some sort of non-binary sometimes-M, sometimes-F, sometimes-just-me.

Sometimes I think the difference between male and female is purely semantic - that both are concepts that are too complicated to be described by one word.

That's a great point. Since realising I'm trans I'm more attune to gender, it's many variations and expressions and how flimsy the concept of gender is. What exactly is gender? What exactly is male and female apart from the labelling one set of parts male for some reason and another female for some other reason? I don't really know anymore, I just know I'd like to have what's considered a male body in our society and be addressed as male pronouns, which for some reason make me more comfortable even though they're just words.

To me, clearly the problem isn't us, it's society's inability to look beyond stereotypes and what "they" regard as biological "givens". I'm over-generalizing, of course, but this is very real. And it gets even more real in my opinion when a person "transgresses" those neat givens in the direction from male to female. So I think that while it is often considered OK to be a masculine female, expressing femininity as a guy is much less accepted. In many folks' logic, wearing a dress as a guy means you're no longer a guy. It'll automatically lead people to question your gender, your sexual orientation and whatnot.

But the irony is that if we tell these folks to look beyond the socially constructed meaning they have given to different types of bodies ("male" and "female") and to simply accept that gender is not in the way our bodies look and how we dress, they won't do us the favor. I personally believe that if society were capable of accepting me as fully male despite my body, my looks, my voice -- I don't think I'd see the need to medically transition. The problems that I have with my body, the dysphoria -- I believe that this is to a considerable extent due to the fact that I learned what "male bodies" look like.

So Kate, to respond to your statement: of course you want to be treated and perceived as female! Because you are! But the problem is that in order to "earn" this "right" we have to conform to society's rules of what it means to be male or female, which are sold to us as "a fact of life" (and which I refuse to buy ).

Quote from: ImagineKate on February 22, 2015, 10:33:52 PM
I agree with the general premise but:

I want to be perceived as female, because I am. If I look like a guy people won't know I'm not. And that is frustrating.

I want to be beautiful. Why? It makes me feel good about myself. I mean, which girl doesn't like attention! It's probably shallow but it's a fact of life.

Doing girly stuff is fun! It also makes me feel good about myself.