Quote from: Jessica Merriman on February 25, 2015, 12:23:12 AM
Just playing devils advocate, but what if you talk doctors out of a script for hormones not intending to transition, get more than you bargained on with  physical changes and have trouble adjusting? No doctor would trust you past that point. It could be a much harder road than you originally got on.

Then you say that you didn't receive the changes well, no different than someone who intended to fully transition and only to take a step backwards. Or no different than if you had access to a provider that didn't have such a narrow view of transgender people and was willing to prescribe HRT without intentions of fully transitioning.

Hi Jessica, I fear I may have been a bit too subtle on a sensitive subject.

There's no simple answer to the question. Where do you draw the boundaries between where people are free to make their own decisions and where others make them for them? Please excuse me for putting it this way, but I'm fine with gatekeepers telling you what to do; I'm not fine with them telling me what to do.

I find each view to be right or wrong depending on circumstances. I don't think it can be reduced to absolute right and wrong, and that was kind of my original point. You set up a situation where its wrong, so I responded with a counter argument from the lying is ok point of view, but I also did so in an interesting morally questionable way and combined with paraphrasing you I found the entire thing amusing. Yes it could cause problems, but also it could be the right thing to do. It depends. If you had a decent doctor you'd never lie, and if you did they wouldn't take it personally and would look after you anyway. But perhaps you're not capable of making your own decisions and someone should protect you.

There was a long discussion a while ago on getting SRS while presenting male. I expect you remember it, as I think you were active in it. I find the moral questions quite similar to this one.

I'm not saying its right or wrong so much as its complicated. If we were all nice to each other we'd never end up with these dilemmas.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on February 25, 2015, 12:30:41 AM
When do they stop then? When your internal organs are mush or the person commits suicide?

Exactly!
Apparently the Internet has turned people into qualified physicians and endocrinologists.
I would never put faith in information online because every medication has pros and cons. Because of that, and because I'm not qualified to give medical advice,I'm rely on my doctors. It's not blind faith, but I'll trust them over banter off the internet

Quote from: Muffinheart on February 25, 2015, 04:46:14 AM
Exactly!
Apparently the Internet has turned people into qualified physicians and endocrinologists.
I would never put faith in information online because every medication has pros and cons. Because of that, and because I'm not qualified to give medical advice,I'm rely on my doctors. It's not blind faith, but I'll trust them over banter off the internet

I agree and disagree with this and what went before. Since the agreeing bit is not very interesting, I'll just state the other.

Qualified or not I'll trust my opinion over a doctor. I trust my opinion that when my doctor and endocrinologist state opposite views about something that its time to find a new doctor. I trust my opinion that when a (different) doctor prescribes premarin that I won't be seeing that doctor, as confirmed later by an endo. I'll trust my opinion that some of the psych's around here are not good, and that the one I did find is - pretty sure I was right about that. I'll trust my opinion that someone needs to go to the hospital instead of going home, fortunately. I seen far too many mistakes and poor practices, and I'll trust my opinion when its time to listen, when its not, and most of the time, when I've no idea. I've yet to accidentally kill myself so I think the scores in my favor so far.

I don't trust banter for much either, except pointing the way, but there's plenty of good information online. Medical research papers, medical books and so on. The problem is understanding what your read, understanding how it all fits together with everything else and that you may be completely missing something, and having some idea of how reliable your understanding is. I've read things that helped, and other things like Cindy's recent research paper that were totally incomprehensible.

What are you doing when you work out which surgeon to go to if not doubting their medical skills? If they were all perfect it wouldn't matter which one you went to. With informed consent HRT, you're making a psychiatric judgement on your own behalf that its a good idea.

I agree with the general idea of what was said, but not as an absolute truth.

I didn't research surgeons, because for every positive comment, there is someone opposing.
I went with who was closer and covered by my plan. Seeing as there is only one in Canada, it was pretty easy.
I glad you have faith in your research and self diagnosis. I wish you well.

Quote from: Muffinheart on February 25, 2015, 07:13:50 AM
I glad you have faith in your research and self diagnosis. I wish you well.

I'm not really self diagnosing, I'm choosing which doctor to believe.

I think its probably best if I stop discussing this particular aspect of things for a while.

Quote from: Muffinheart on February 25, 2015, 04:46:14 AM
Exactly!
Apparently the Internet has turned people into qualified physicians and endocrinologists.
I would never put faith in information online because every medication has pros and cons. Because of that, and because I'm not qualified to give medical advice,I'm rely on my doctors. It's not blind faith, but I'll trust them over banter off the internet

Not all lying to doctors is equal, though. I would never advise lying about effects, other medications, etc, or disregarding an endocrinologist's advice about dosages, blood test results, medication choices, etc. for just the reasons that have been brought up. However, that is way different from lying because the endo has an arbitrary gatekeeper mentality that does not acknowledge your personal transgender narrative because it's not the stock narrative.

It'd still be far better to find a more understanding endo (or therapist or whatever), but that's not always an option. I personally would shop around as much as I could if I ran into a roadblock like this, but that's easy to say since I have not had any trouble with the official route.

Quote from: Muffinheart on February 25, 2015, 04:46:14 AM
Exactly!
Apparently the Internet has turned people into qualified physicians and endocrinologists.
I would never put faith in information online because every medication has pros and cons. Because of that, and because I'm not qualified to give medical advice,I'm rely on my doctors. It's not blind faith, but I'll trust them over banter off the internet

If it wasn't for the internet, I would be getting very poor care from my endo.  He has no clue what he is doing, and if I had put my faith in him and not gone to the internet for research, I would still be getting inadequate care. 

Quote from: skin on February 25, 2015, 10:16:50 AM
If it wasn't for the internet, I would be getting very poor care from my endo.  He has no clue what he is doing, and if I had put my faith in him and not gone to the internet for research, I would still be getting inadequate care.

Sorry to hear about your inept endo. I must be very lucky, because most of the trans folks in my city go to one of two endo. So there is a history of relatively good advice. Of course I'm assuming that.
My family doctor has never had a trans patient before, but it doesn't really change our relationship other than she's all over me about mammograms. Now that I'm post op, there is little change in what happens or how she looks after me. It's not like I'm menopausal or require a Pap smear....so just annual checkup, usual bloodwork and the ugly prostate exam ugh!

HRT dosages are tricky for people who have no intention of transitioning. The OBGYN I was referred to by my psychologist had worked with hundreds of transsexuals and had absolutely no idea what to prescribe. After discussing it with my wife and me, he decided to put me on the same transition level dosage a non-transtioning friend of mine has been on for 10+ years. The physical side effects have been minimal (albeit I am extremely androgynous anyway) and my medication has brought me a level of peace for over 5 years now.

Quote from: Amy85 on February 24, 2015, 01:26:49 AMI doubt hormones could change me enough to ever have someone assume I am a woman while presenting as a man. I am very manly in body, face, and voice.

This actually puts you in a position to experience a tremendous amount of physical side effects from HRT. It's a bit self-evident when you think about it, but hormones have the most drastic physical effect for people whose bodies exhibit strong secondary sexual characteristics of their gender assigned at birth. I am extremely androgynous. My female alter had no problems with people seeing her as a woman preHRT and I don't have any problems with people seeing me as a guy after 5 years on a full transition level regimen. I get compliments from all my buddies on my great pecs when I go without a shirt in the summer and my female alter is comfortable wearing a bikini to the beach without shaving the fine hair that remains on my chest, legs and under my arms. Add in the fact that I am a rail skinny 5'10" 144 pound ectomorph and their just isn't any fat to push around to give me womanly curves. My wife and I were both extremely relieved the physical side effects of my medication were so minimal. The huge positive of HRT for me was chemical castration. As a survivor of childhood abuse, sterility gave my mind peace in knowing I can never have children of my own and the cycle of abuse ends with me.

I am going to be doing this for awhile. While it would be nice if I get male fail, if I end up at a job where they are not accepting and do not have protections, I will probably present as male for the job in order to get money. I've already started hormones, and I still present completely male.

That is not my long term plan, but I do think it is an option until you can get to a point physically, geographically, and socially where you can make the social transition and present full time. I know some doctors and therapists aren't cool with this, but mine don't seem to expect me to present as female right now.

In my opinion, the ultimate goal should be to get to a place where you can present as the gender you identify with and feel comfortable. But I think in various circumstances that presenting as your GAAB is an option. I would just caution that hormones can change your body drastically to the point where that is not an option, and you might start experiencing even strong feelings of social dysphoria if you're transitioning physically and still being misgendered. I don't know though because I'm not very far into the process.

I've been on HRT for years and have not yet gone full time. Although every year I say this is the one where I'm going to get FFS, finances and other things get in the way. I have approached male fail and am passible without effort, but without FFS I don't even want to attempt going full time. I'll do everything on my timeline when I'm damn good and ready.

Quote from: Christine Eryn on February 26, 2015, 12:09:34 AM
I've been on HRT for years and have not yet gone full time. Although every year I say this is the one where I'm going to get FFS, finances and other things get in the way. I have approached male fail and am passible without effort, but without FFS I don't even want to attempt going full time. I'll do everything on my timeline when I'm damn good and ready.

I love your post   I think what was freaking me out was that the only trans person I know is my aunt who (from my point of view) came out of the closet and started living full time and name change and everything very quickly. I know there is no way I could handle doing what she did. I'm a big fan of your approach of doing things "when you're damn good and ready"

First therapy session is Friday morning. I'm scared but also curious what she will find. I know it won't be that day, but down the road... what will she tell me? Am I trans? Am I just messed up? Should I transition? Should I manage my feelings with pills and just be a man? I have mixed feelings. I know I really want to be female but at the same time transitioning seems to impossibly hard, especially for a tall, muscly, wide-shouldered, deep voiced peraon like me. And when it comes down to it I know how to be a man, but not how to be a woman. When it comes to being a woman I don't even know how to walk right >.< Acting like the man I've been for 29 years is natural, so the temptation to just continue to repress and fade into the background is strong.

Quote from: Amy85 on February 26, 2015, 01:11:14 AM
First therapy session is Friday morning. I'm scared but also curious what she will find. I know it won't be that day, but down the road... what will she tell me? Am I trans? Am I just messed up? Should I transition? Should I manage my feelings with pills and just be a man?

I understand where you're coming from with this as I had the many of the same thoughts, but its not how I found therapy worked. It was more working though things until I knew the answer myself. Most of that questioning was a long time ago, but I remember well the the last sessions with my psych. I didn't ask him if I was cured, I told him I was started running out of things I wanted to talk about and I didn't see much point in coming in anymore. He was fine with that.

When I got started with therapy I'd heard the classic transgender narrative, and I didn't fit it. That was terribly confusing. What I didn't realize back then although its obvious now is that transgender is a spectrum, not yes or no. Thinking about that way I was definitely on it, the only question was where and what to do about it.

Quote from: AnonyMs on February 26, 2015, 02:01:33 AM
I understand where you're coming from with this as I had the many of the same thoughts, but its not how I found therapy worked.

I'm not surprised, and if it takes months of a therapist just helping me to find the answers for myself then it's still worth it. Still though, I really really wish I could just plop down on a couch and ramble incohearantly for an hour and a half and then receive a concise explanation of exactly how I am messed up and a step by step guide to dealing with my problem

Also I want to win the lottery and have magic powers.

I'm not sure but I think many of my difficulties came being kind of in the middle, so it wasn't blindly obvious. If it was obvious then perhaps you could tell your story and get the instant diagnosis - only you probably did that as a child already. Perhaps someone else can say how it goes in that situation? I'd like to know.

If only I'd known back then what I've been reading in these forums, I think I'd have known the answer and been a lot happier for it. I feel I'm not a very common type, but definitely in there. I think its a basic human need to be part of a group, and when you're not its very uncomfortable. While it does have its good moments, overall I'm not too happy about being transgender - but I'd far rather be transgender than still questioning.

Once that's over the next problem was what to do, and again that was difficult as it wasn't really clear if I had to do anything. I started with low dose, with no particular intention to transition, and that also left me feeling isolated. I still feel different, and I'm doing my own thing, but I've accepted that it doesn't matter. It took a while though.

Amy85, You know, I had the same issues when I first contemplated that maybe I should finally try to do something about this all instead of going back into complete denial and repressing everything with hate and fire. When I was looking into mirror, all I saw was that strongly built, wide-shouldered person with strong facial muscles, and I was thinking - there is just no way how this could look like a woman...
The truth is, we get from transition as much as we put into it. And, surprisingly, people who have the most unexpectable outcomes were quite masculine in their looks. Because if You are feminine or androgynous in Your appearance, HRT wont have that drastic effect or it might take longer time. But if You look like an average man chances are Your acquaintances might not recognise You after a year or two on HRT.

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on February 26, 2015, 03:08:24 AM
Amy85, You know, I had the same issues when I first contemplated that maybe I should finally try to do something about this all instead of going back into complete denial and repressing everything with hate and fire. When I was looking into mirror, all I saw was that strongly built, wide-shouldered person with strong facial muscles, and I was thinking - there is just no way how this could look like a woman...
The truth is, we get from transition as much as we put into it. And, surprisingly, people who have the most unexpectable outcomes were quite masculine in their looks. Because if You are feminine or androgynous in Your appearance, HRT wont have that drastic effect or it might take longer time. But if You look like an average man chances are Your acquaintances might not recognise You after a year or two on HRT.

Yes I have seen some amazing transformations between the before and after pics in timelines. One of my favourite things to do of late is browse the /r/transtimelines sub->-bleeped-<- and marvel at all the amazing changes all those people have gone through. It gives me a little hope for myself despite realizing that bone structure and voice will always hold me back from passing. I browse those timelines until I am overcome with awe... and jealousy at all the beautiful women who used to look like men with sad looks on their faces My feelings on the matter change so much but right now I feel like going for broke on the medical side and living with one foot on either side of the gender fence if I have to.