My question for today (for myself and anyone else who wants to look at what lies beneath..) is: how do we deal with reactions we have which could be called transphobic, or at least are on the transphobic spectrum?

You'd think, after all the years I've spent being sledge-hammered into various molds I didn't fit into, and the many more years I've spent complaining about it, that my first reaction when seeing someone who doesn't pass, or mixes "male" and "female" presentation, or in whatever way fails to fit neatly into either the F-mold or the M-mold would be: great, someone else who doesn't fit.  But instead, I hear a voice that says -- well, we all know what it says, and it ain't pretty.  I try to stomp it down and make myself at least seem accepting and generally decent, but I always feel like other people can tell.  (And when I look in the mirror and have the same reaction....)

What I've learned from hanging around in social justice circles is that this is pretty much to be expected.  We grow up in a bigoted society, and our bones are marinated in those bigotries.  However much we may consciously and conscienciously try to rise above them and behave like decent people, those bigotries are still there.  They never go completely away.  We have to find ways to work around them and accept that sometimes they'll pop out anyway.

So my question: how do we handle this particular bigotry -- internalized transphobia?  How can lessen the power and effect of those reactions and that internalized bigotry?  And how do we live as decent people and accept others as decent people despite its presence?

I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it: People don't want equality, they want to be members of the big club that steps on minorities. They want a better position for themselves, not for everybody.

Hugs, Devlyn

This reminds me of the topic of "socialization" in children.

Being a parent, I'm familiar with how awful little kids can be to each other, especially to those who are different in some way.

As children, we're taught first to suppress our outward reactions to others who are different, and then to try to understand, accept, and hopefully empathize with them.

Of course each child is unique, and some are naturally empathetic, but it does seem like an automatic aversion to "otherness" is just built in to many of us.

To make matters worse, having learned to be empathetic to "Otherness Type A" doesn't necessarily help when encountering "Otherness Type B". It's as if the socialization process needs to be repeated each time.

From this perspective, having a phobic reaction to anyone who is different is actually a strong reminder to start that childhood process all over again...

I've freely admitted I had more than my fair share of internalised transphobia before I decided to transition for the second time. It was no doubt one of the things that derailed my first attempt. But it was very internalised, I never spoke it out aloud and I never acted on it. If someone was down on a trans person I would actually get incredibly indignant and, depending on the circumstances, speak up - because if there's one thing I can't stand it's bigotry and discrimination. Now imagine trying to live with that massive contradiction going on in your skull...on one hand I was totally all for trans people to live as they wanted to and yet on the other I pretty much believed they were deluded. Add to that the fact I knew I wanted to live my life and be accepted as a woman and the internal inconsistencies really started to stack up. My gender counsellor called me out on it very early in the process, actually said to me that I had internalised transphobia...which forced me to admit to myself that yes, I was the one thing that I couldn't stand above all other things, a bigot. And a hypocrite. I wouldn't stand for someone else dissing trans people so why on earth would I allow myself to do it?? I know it sounds a bit too clean cut but that effectively put paid to that. And I tell you what, I felt so much better about myself, my transition, my life and trans people ever since. Not long after I joined Susan's and it really helped me see how baseless my bigotry was...we are not just trans people we are people.

Quote from: Asche on February 27, 2015, 03:56:24 PM
So my question: how do we handle this particular bigotry -- internalized transphobia?  How can lessen the power and effect of those reactions and that internalized bigotry?  And how do we live as decent people and accept others as decent people despite its presence?

It helped me to look back on all that I'd accomplished - this oafish, socially inept guy, turned into someone who can be accepted as a woman by everyone. It's an accomplishment and has made me much wiser about the world. I now see the human experience from both sides of the gender divide.

These are things to be proud of. I'm proud of being transgender and of my transgender brothers, sisters, and other siblings. I'm especially proud of those that surmounted, and continue to surmount even more challenging obstacles than mine.

I think that mindset has managed to erase most of my internalized transphobia.

It took a lot of work for me to accept who I am. I had a lot of self hate and it involved homophobia and transphobia. I hid who I am because I did not want to be singled out, made fun of, the point of derogatory comments and the focus of potential violence.

I think group helped me to see many different trans and listen to their fears and issues. I realized I have much more in common than different.

I think how we see ourselves is often how and what we see in others.  Having the opportunity to see others trans and share personal issues and fears allowed me to realize how much I am similar to them; I had compassion for them and I deserved compassion for myself.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on February 27, 2015, 04:50:56 PM
I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it: People don't want equality, they want to be members of the big club that steps on minorities. They want a better position for themselves, not for everybody.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. I'm not taking offence or anything, but it seems overly broad and negative.

I'd say its very common, but I don't think I feel think that way - at my worst I want to be part of a big club, I want better in life, and I don't care about anyone else. The first part is self protection, avoiding social isolation, and having a comfortable life. The last is not quite true, but not entirely false either. There's a few groups I don't like, but its for behavior I object to not being a minority.I don't like people who discriminate for example.

It is a broad statement. Internalized transphobia manifests itself most often on this site in the form of a "self-hater" who invariably spends much more time hating on others than themselves. They engage in the bigotry Asche referred to and will malign anyone to make themselves feel higher up the social ladder. I've seen too many personal attacks over the years because of this and it's a hot button with me.

Quote from: Ms Grace on February 27, 2015, 05:08:45 PM
I've freely admitted I had more than my fair share of internalised transphobia before I decided to transition for the second time. It was no doubt one of the things that derailed my first attempt. But it was very internalised, I never spoke it out aloud and I never acted on it. If someone was down on a trans person I would actually get incredibly indignant and, depending on the circumstances, speak up - because if there's one thing I can't stand it's bigotry and discrimination. Now imagine trying to live with that massive contradiction going on in your skull...on one hand I was totally all for trans people to live as they wanted to and yet on the other I pretty much believed they were deluded. Add to that the fact I knew I wanted to live my life and be accepted as a woman and the internal inconsistencies really started to stack up. My gender counsellor called me out on it very early in the process, actually said to me that I had internalised transphobia...which forced me to admit to myself that yes, I was the one thing that I couldn't stand above all other things, a bigot. And a hypocrite. I wouldn't stand for someone else dissing trans people so why on earth would I allow myself to do it?? I know it sounds a bit too clean cut but that effectively put paid to that. And I tell you what, I felt so much better about myself, my transition, my life and trans people ever since. Not long after I joined Susan's and it really helped me see how baseless my bigotry was...we are not just trans people we are people.

I'm with you on not being able to stand bigotry and discrimination, but I think there's a huge difference between what you feel internally and what you show to the outside word.

I don't think you can help it if you having some feelings like that; they were probably out there early in your life by your parents or the social environment around you. And very difficult to get rid of. You have a choice though on how you act on those feelings and treat others, and by doing that it speaks better of you because its a conscious decision based on your morals, not something you had no choice in and never thought about. I don't think how you feel internally is hypocrisy except in a technical sense. Expressing it to others though, that really would hypocrisy.

I think I may have some internalized transphobia; its stupid, especially at this stage, but very hard to fix. Hopefully it will disappear completely in time. The odd thing is I don't any of it feel it towards other trans people - I'd never show it if i did, but why the difference? Maybe because its so much more stressful internally and that amplifies it? I don't now.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on February 27, 2015, 08:18:36 PM
It is a broad statement. Internalized transphobia manifests itself most often on this site in the form of a "self-hater" who invariably spends much more time hating on others than themselves. They engage in the bigotry Asche referred to and will malign anyone to make themselves feel higher up the social ladder. I've seen too many personal attacks over the years because of this and it's a hot button with me.

Ok, I can understand that. Putting others down to climb higher yourself is quite a common behavior regardless of all the other baggage some people might have - there's a certain utility to it, even if its morally wrong. I've seen plenty of it at work.

Quote from: Asche on February 27, 2015, 03:56:24 PM
So my question: how do we handle this particular bigotry -- internalized transphobia?  How can lessen the power and effect of those reactions and that internalized bigotry?  And how do we live as decent people and accept others as decent people despite its presence?

I guess I said it in my other post. I'm at a bit of a loss how to reduce the internal impact but I do get to choose how I act towards others. I don't have the problem with transphobia, but I do have some other bigoted feelings, and I choose not to act on them. I'd get rid of them if I could, but I think I'm stuck with them now. At least I'll not be passing them on to my children.

I find it its relatively easy to accept others as decent (assuming they are) despite anything I might feel internally, as generalized negative feelings tend to be associate with the group and tend to fall down when thinking about individuals. Which goes to show how stupid they are.

I'm not really sure if this is internalized transphobia, but sometimes I want to look away when I see a trans women who isn't transitioning well. I know its wrong that I want to look away, but I am deeply afraid of ending up the same way,and not transitioning is not a viable option for me.  I try to remind myself that she is a woman, deserves respect for making the difficult decision to transition, and that however uneasy it makes me, she probably feels a lot worse and deserves some empathy.

Transphobia is like any other culturally conditioned prejudice. The only way to overcome it is to become aware of it and how it affects our perception. However, I think I'm pretty good at accepting difference compared to the vast majority of people. Seeing transgender people is nothing compared to other situations that I have experienced.

I have never actually been personally bothered by someone's gender presentation. Before I realized that I was trans, I thought I was genderqueer and spent months learning about it. I found a number of people that mixed gender presentation or were non-binary, and I thought they were all awesome. I also spent a large amount of time learning about third genders in other cultures, and I was very impressed with what I saw there as well. I was actually able to really relate to interviews and stories about hijra, waria, fa'afafine, two-spirits, etc. Seeing them is what made me realize that I'm not cis because I realized that these feelings I have are universal to humanity, and I would actually love it if non-binary identities were more culturally accepted.

Of course, being non-binary is very different from not passing. But they share the commonality that the individual in question has some characteristics that society perceives as masculine and some characteristics that society sees as feminine, and the basic issue is that we live in a society where people are judged if they don't fit neatly into 'male' or 'female'.

I'll try to put my thoughts down.

I live in a multicultural multi gender society and I accept all as I hope people accept me.

But I'm human. There are groups of people who I do not particularly like and I struggle to accept them,. Now what does this mean?

The way I approach it is that I will never ever reveal my feelings to anyone. The only feeling I will reveal is love and acceptance. I will never let another human feel any form of rejection from me. No matter my internal feeling.

I was not always this way. When I was consumed by self loathing and self hatred the ability to turn my emotions to what I believe is a moral way of life was difficult, to say the least.

Once I had learned to accept myself I found that my ability to accept others, no matter who, was quite natural.

Yes I'm still fearful of some, I for example, am very fearful of right wing extremists, indeed any extremists who express loathing of myself. But fear and non-acceptance are not the same. I accept them as decent human beings who have the right to be accepted by all. But I reserve the right to be cautious and indeed fearful.

So I can accept all, but I love some more than others.

I'm not sure if this reflects your question.

Quote from: Cindy on February 28, 2015, 12:53:04 AM
Once I had learned to accept myself I found that my ability to accept others, no matter who, was quite natural.

Yes I'm still fearful of some, I for example, am very fearful of right wing extremists, indeed any extremists who express loathing of myself. But fear and non-acceptance are not the same. I accept them as decent human beings who have the right to be accepted by all. But I reserve the right to be cautious and indeed fearful.

Cindy, I can definitely appreciate most of what you're saying, but I can't relate to this. I don't know how to ask the question really, but how did you come to this acceptance? If its religion, then I kind of understand it without understanding it.

I just spent 15 minutes writing that, and its not even expressing my thoughts properly.

Quote from: AnonyMs on February 28, 2015, 01:53:52 AM

Quote from: Cindy on February 28, 2015, 12:53:04 AM
Once I had learned to accept myself I found that my ability to accept others, no matter who, was quite natural.

Yes I'm still fearful of some, I for example, am very fearful of right wing extremists, indeed any extremists who express loathing of myself. But fear and non-acceptance are not the same. I accept them as decent human beings who have the right to be accepted by all. But I reserve the right to be cautious and indeed fearful.

Cindy, I can definitely appreciate most of what you're saying, but I can't relate to this. I don't know how to ask the question really, but how did you come to this acceptance? If its religion, then I kind of understand it without understanding it.

I just spent 15 minutes writing that, and its not even expressing my thoughts properly.

OK, well, I have no religion, I have no gods. But I will die on my feet to defend anothers right to believe in their god. I will allow and indeed I demand that humans have the right to free speech, even if I disagree with their view.

If that group wishes to insult me, so be it. I will feel pain. But ultimately I believe in the freedom of expression and acceptance. Because others do not, does not impinge on my belief. I can rise above it.

I may die in the next 10 seconds, 10 years or 10 centuries. I may die horribly or peacefully. It is not under my control. But as long as the human gene pool continues, evolution will continue, the greatest part of human evolution now is in mental/social growth. Physically humans have changed little in the last whatever eons but socially and interactively we have. Is that 'true' evolution? I'll leave it to a philosopher.

But I do believe in humanity.

I'm nothing. Each of us are nothing. But collectively we are human. By accepting and giving the opportunity for others to accept we advance.

If I took the view that people who hate me should be silenced, or terminated, what does that accomplish? At the best it is a temporary non-solution, at the worst it allows the haters to continue to hate.

It is not martyrdom, it is, in my mind, reality

I think its safe to say that we have very different viewpoints, and while I understand what your saying I don't think I could hold such views. There's some common threads, but I come to opposite conclusions. Normally I like to discuss/argue things but I think I'll leave this one alone. Discretion is the better part of valor and all.

Quote from: Cindy on February 28, 2015, 02:43:17 AM
But as long as the human gene pool continues, evolution will continue, the greatest part of human evolution now is in mental/social growth. Physically humans have changed little in the last whatever eons but socially and interactively we have. Is that 'true' evolution? I'll leave it to a philosopher.

This one I'd like to discuss, especially given your work. Perhaps its better moved someone else if you're interested, but I don't now how.

I think its likely that before much longer the rate of physical evolution is going to change utterly due to technological advances. Evolution is normally a slow process but if and when people manage to engineer these changes then nothing is going to be the same. Even if people try to put limits on technology, its a big world and someone's going to do it, and if not now then 500 or a 1000 years from now. There's probably a lot of money and power to be had in such things, so if its possible I see it as inevitable, assuming something bad doesn't happen in the meantime. I doubt its possible to predict the outcome of it either, except that it will make all the changes in human history look like nothing. I can't imagine being transgender would be much of a thing at that point, maybe being "fixed" or just plain conservative.

I spent nearly a lifetime being a chameleon, blending in, doing my best to be accepted and thought of as a guy, by guys. I know all too well what many/most guys think about women, gays, and "->-bleeped-<-s". So.... Is it Paranoia when you KNOW they are out to get you?

I think this deep insider knowledge permeates into the thought processes as we try to resolve how to manage being trans. We try to juggle so many balls (pardon the pun) to survive, to make it through another day. A decision of the magnitude of transitioning full-time cannot help but to be influenced by that deeply innate fear. Since we already feel shame and guilt about being trans, beating up on yourself is an easy way to talk yourself out of doing something so risky.

My wife used to say "Who in their right mind Wants to be a 50 y/o woman?" followed by the long list detailing how women are second class citizens and by the time you're 25 your best years are fading fast. Well... it is not like I WANT this, I need it. Yet, between not wanting it and knowing too much, I still have too much internalized transphobia baggage. But over the past few years I dropped a LOT of it.

I've been called transphobic because I didn't want to participate in Pride events or going to Parliament Hill in Ottawa for Transgender Day of Remembrance. I wish those people who've labeled me that would see I'm not into politics or all out activism. I'm more of protest online or voice my opinions in small groups with people I know.
Believe me, I am so appreciative of the work so many trans activists have done to make life easier, but I'm just not a protest or stand up for who I am kind of gal.

Quote from: JoanneB on February 28, 2015, 06:46:30 AM
My wife used to say "Who in their right mind Wants to be a 50 y/o woman?" followed by the long list detailing how women are second class citizens and by the time you're 25 your best years are fading fast. Well... it is not like I WANT this, I need it. Yet, between not wanting it and knowing too much, I still have too much internalized transphobia baggage. But over the past few years I dropped a LOT of it.

That's the conversation I used to have with myself, exactly. It makes me wonder about what baggage I'm carrying that I'm not even conscious of when you put it all like that.

i had a 25 year civil war in my mind. it wasnt much fun. im glad its over. cut that guilt and shame loose, be proud, then be glad. life may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands.