Hey,

So I'm not currently in a position to go on T, or even really start thinking about going on T, but I've been doing some physical-ish social-ish transition things, like voice training and muscle building. I'm looking to raise my T levels "naturally," and I've read that there are some supplements that do that along with the usual exercise/nutrition/etc. I'm almost 18 if that means anything.

I'm going to my psychiatrist next week, but she's not a nutritionist obviously and she's not used to treating trans patients for specifically trans-reated stuff, so I don't know how much info she'll be able to give me. I've gotten a referral to a nutritionist before, but the only one around has very limited availability and wants 2 intro interviews before telling me anything. 

So. There's zinc, magnesium, and vitamin D. I've looked up typical levels/daily values for those and, obviously, found f/m stats. Should I be following a m or f set of guidelines? Because I know that zinc and D have certain toxicity lvs and I don't want to touch that. For ref:
Zinc: (m:11mg f:9mg)
Magnesium:(m:410mg f:36omg)
Vitamin D: (m/f:600mg)

Current levels are all measured by blood test. I've read that zinc and magnesium are measured within the red blood cell count test, so is there a way to distinguish the lvs of zinc and magnesium within that test once I get the results back?

I also saw something about DHEA, but researching that gave me the typical "can cause x side effect or the opposite of x side effect" and "can cause y result or the opposite of y result." Does anyone have experience with this drug (?) or any other similar supplement? Are there any particular warnings that I should be particularly aware of (I'm currently taking a low/normal dose of a mood stabilizer and fish oil, that's it)?

I'm going to be talking to my psychiatrist about starting these supplements, if I do end up starting them, so we'll work together to monitor them and make sure nothing's going wrong.

Are there any other important things I should know or would be useful? Thanks guys, I appreciate it

Hey Sir,

Welcome to the forums .

As far as I know "natural transition" does not work or has only minimal effects that do not justify the amount of money you spend on supplements and the possible side-effects you get from putting them into your body. This is only my opinion, based on things I read on the Internet, so others may have different experiences/opinions.

I'd stay away from DHEA. You simply don't want to produce an imbalance in your hormones, it can absolutely mess with you. Plus the side effects you mentioned are nothing to laugh at. Don't ruin your prospects for HRT by ruining your kidneys or liver now.

As for the other supplements -- what counts is whether you're in a healthy range. If you have enough Vitamin D and Zinc in your blood then there's no need to take any. The composition of your current body is "female" so the female range is what's healthy for you at the moment.

If you have the levels checked, make sure you don't take any of the respective supplements because they can influence results. Pause everything you take a week before the blood is taken.

For me the biggest confidence and mood booster at the moment is working out. I'm definitely a hard-gainer, but I'm making slow progress.

Edit: sorry, tapatalk is being stupid. I wanted to add that even though the progress is slow I'm quite happy with it .

Thanks Adrian - that's helpful. I'll definitely get the blood tests, but I see what you mean about messing with hormone levels with DHEA.

Question for you: you say that the progress you're making with working out is slow, but rewarding. What kind of time line are you talking about? I know muscle gain is slow, but I haven't been able to find a range for how much muscle one typically gains over x time. What has your experience been?

Thanks!

Hey, I've been thinking about supplements these days too.. though more along the lines of muscle building.

As much as it seems appealing to go with male recommendations, the fact is that your body (and mine too) is currently operating as female so stick to female dosages and stuff. Sometimes I'm tempted to treat my body as male but that probably won't do any good in the long run, you want to be healthy not hurt your body. As far as I know, there aren't really any ways to naturally boost T levels safely and significantly, so I've done away with thinking about doing something like that. I have read that weight training boosts T a bit, but I'm not sure whether that works for us too or just for cis guys.

In the realm of workout supplementation however, my understanding is that supplementation guidelines are no different across genders (based on lots of reading I've been doing here and there but I could be wrong). I recently started taking a pre-workout supplement, these stuff have a whole mix of stuff in them that are supposed to give you a boost in energy, strength and focus. I've noticed that mine gives me some sort of aggressive energy, which I'm finding pretty awesome. Mine also has a bit of creatine, which (in addition to helping your body provide energy) is supposed to help you build mass. I just started so I don't have any "results" to report yet. Other than that, I use protein powder, but I wouldn't really consider a supplement, and more like a way of wasting money honestly, but I aim for as high a protein intake as I can manage (meaning to see a nutritionist about this). I'd also reiterate what adrian said, working out and seeing incremental improvements in my strength and muscle mass is helping me out a lot, also just in maintaining my mental state.

For a "female," I believe I've read somewhere that you'd be doing pretty well if you manage to build 1 lb in 2 weeks, but of course that's dependent on your diet (for maximal muscle gains you need to maintain a caloric surplus, and also make sure you get enough protein), and your workout routine. I believe the surplus should be something around 125kcal above your maintenance caloric requirements, above that and you risk putting on more fat. It's hard, I've managed to build about 2kg in 10 months? Provided I try to keep at a caloric deficit most days and only recently upped my lifting game. And I would consider myself a person with a natural ability to build muscle (as in I had a decent amount before I ever started exercising)..

Quote from: darkblade on March 09, 2015, 11:45:03 AM
I have read that weight training boosts T a bit, but I'm not sure whether that works for us too or just for cis guys.

I think it's for everyone. I think fat generates mainly estrogen and muscle generates testosterone. Maybe I'm generalizing too much, but all the really buff cis women I know have pretty deep voices, maybe that's why? 

Quote
In the realm of workout supplementation however, my understanding is that supplementation guidelines are no different across genders (based on lots of reading I've been doing here and there but I could be wrong). I recently started taking a pre-workout supplement, these stuff have a whole mix of stuff in them that are supposed to give you a boost in energy, strength and focus. I've noticed that mine gives me some sort of aggressive energy, which I'm finding pretty awesome. Mine also has a bit of creatine, which (in addition to helping your body provide energy) is supposed to help you build mass.

Quote from: Simply_Sir on March 09, 2015, 12:07:08 PM
I think it's for everyone. I think fat generates mainly estrogen and muscle generates testosterone. Maybe I'm generalizing too much, but all the really buff cis women I know have pretty deep voices, maybe that's why? 

Don't know about the cis women with deep voices, but some women have naturally high T (in my case due to PCOS but I've somehow gone down to normal levels, bummer). It's actually more that fat stores estrogen and muscle stimulation increases T. The harder you hit your muscles, the more T you get, in a simplified sense. I've yet to sit down and read through all the exercise science peer-reviewed literature, so I might not be entirely accurate.

*mod edit, no dosages please

I'm probably an atypical example, but this is what I have accomplished (I need to give you a bit of background info to put stuff into perspective):
I started out bordering on being underweight (BMI 18) due to food intolerances and other health issues. I also suffer from fatigue, so I cannot exercise too excessively.
I manage to eat around 2,000-2,200 calories per day, with a considerable amount coming from fat. I don't eat meat, don't tolerate dairy or soy. So my protein intake is fairly low, between 40-70g per day. I have low iron and a zinc and b12 deficiency, so I supplement all those.

Since September last year I have worked out (complex, functional exercises) twice a week in the gym. I do a fairly intense (for me anyway) swim workout once a week.

I started out weighing 63kg (I'm fairly tall), body fat 20-22%. Today I hit 67kg, body fat 23% (it fluctuates, so I'm not too concerned). This is the heaviest I've been in almost 20 years (yeah, I'm also old :-P ). And I'm seeing the changes in the right places -- shoulders, biceps, yay .

I know this is highly individual, but I think that for someone younger and with less restrictions in terms of food and energy, more can be accomplished in a shorter period.

I hope this helps

Quote from: Simply_Sir on March 09, 2015, 11:12:18 AM
Thanks Adrian - that's helpful. I'll definitely get the blood tests, but I see what you mean about messing with hormone levels with DHEA.

Question for you: you say that the progress you're making with working out is slow, but rewarding. What kind of time line are you talking about? I know muscle gain is slow, but I haven't been able to find a range for how much muscle one typically gains over x time. What has your experience been?

Thanks!

dark blade, thanks for all that info. I apparently have a lot of research to do haha (a good thing)


and adrian,

Quote from: adrian on March 09, 2015, 12:52:04 PM
I started out bordering on being underweight (BMI 18) due to food intolerances and other health issues. I also suffer from fatigue, so I cannot exercise too excessively.
I manage to eat around 2,000-2,200 calories per day, with a considerable amount coming from fat. I don't eat meat, don't tolerate dairy or soy. So my protein intake is fairly low, between 40-70g per day. I have low iron and a zinc and b12 deficiency, so I supplement all those.

My BMI is 17.6 - I don't have any food intolerances or health issues so our situations are obviously quite different, but what helped you in being able to eat more/differently?

Definitely did help, thanks

  Sorry folks, discussion of dosages is not permitted here, even if it is an OTC substance.

Quote from: darkbladeI recently started taking a pre-workout supplement, these stuff have a whole mix of stuff in them that are supposed to give you a boost in energy, strength and focus. I've noticed that mine gives me some sort of aggressive energy, which I'm finding pretty awesome. Mine also has a bit of creatine, which (in addition to helping your body provide energy) is supposed to help you build mass. I just started so I don't have any "results" to report yet.

Guys, be really, really careful with these "cocktail" workout supplements. That "energy boost" often comes from caffeine, and an ongoing problem with many of them is that the manufacturers actually put illegal steroids and other drugs in them. There have been cases of elite athletes failing drug tests because they had unwittingly been using supplements which contained banned substances. And since they're ingested orally, the risk of liver damage from these products is quite high.

Look for brands which are certified by independent testing labs such as NSF and USP -- they also test for heavy metals (lead, arsenic, mercury, and cadmium), which have been found in dangerous concentrations in some brands -- even in whey powder.

It's a very competitive industry marketing products which are often of dubious benefit, and it's almost completely unregulated -- not a good combination. So it's buyer beware -- do your homework before settling on a particular supplement or brand.
------

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Pieter A. Cohen, MD, Gregory Maller, Renan DeSouza, James Neal-Kababick, Journal of the American Medical Association, 2014, v. 312:1691-1693.
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1917421

Quote from: Simply_Sir on March 10, 2015, 06:36:11 PMand adrian,

My BMI is 17.6 - I don't have any food intolerances or health issues so our situations are obviously quite different, but what helped you in being able to eat more/differently?

Definitely did help, thanks

To be honest, for me it was counting calories and forcing myself to simply eat more. Which is not as simple as it sounds, obviously. I tried to up my calorie intake with shakes -- banana, pure hemp protein, coconut oil or coconut cream.

I had always been scared to gain weight, I think because unconsciously I hated how it made me look more feminine. By working out I have managed to gain weight in the "right places".

i've never looked into transitioning naturally, but i've seen a few youtube videos on it.



(his results were pretty nice)

Quote from: Jill F on March 10, 2015, 06:59:55 PM
Sorry folks, discussion of dosages is not permitted here, even if it is an OTC substance.

Oh sorry! I didn't even realize that! Thanks for that.