Keira - November 03, 2007, 06:50:42 PM in topic 'Does gender behaviour come naturally?

Quote...women are usually more liberal on social issues than men. Women tend to be more liberal than men as a group and is refelected in almost all their actions. This goes way beyond social clues.

Hope you don't mind my turning this into a topic, Keira, but I found this really interesting.

I know there are no blanket traits that cover either gender, but this does seem to be true.

Are women generally more liberal, more tolerant? (yeah, I know you can't make blanket statements about any group, but humour me)

Any thoughts as to why this may be?

Quote from: Nero on November 08, 2007, 11:46:57 AM
Are women generally more liberal, more tolerant? (yeah, I know you can't make blanket statements about any group, but humour me)

Any thoughts as to why this may be?

Stereotyping mode on...

Because women focus more on context and function, and men focus on facts and THINGS.

Women are subjective. Men are objective.

Consider sex... it's a stereotype I admit, but women like romance novels, men like pictures. Women like stories and situations, men like sexy bodies.

Women talk to socialize and relate. Men talk to get the point across.

I tell another woman that I was born a male, and she doesn't care. I AM a woman in function to her, and that's all that matters.

I tell a man I was born male, and he wonder's what's in my pants.

Apply it all to issues in general, and I'd imagine women have more flexibility in the way they view things.

~Kate~

Nero, borrowing is the best form of flattery, so its OK 

Not sure if it comes from nurture or nature,
but in every nation, women are more liberal
on a host of issues.

My own opinion is that gender influences
how our brain collects, processes and organises information
affecting how our personality is formed and by extension our
actions.

If that's the case, and women would be more interested by
the far ranging impact of actions on others (which I found the case
in all women I've met) and in keeping the peace.

Agressivity and need for dominance is linked to testosterone's effect; salivary levels of T are even linked to how strong a smile a person has.
Its not hard to see that looking out for number one, himself, would be a man's first priority on average (again, there are men way off that average). So, its logical that men are less interests by the effect of their actions beyond themselves.

We are talking about a group effect here. So, on the average
women would be more liberal though some women might not be.

When I reported to work one Monday morning in May of 2004 I received calls from other women on the job to congratulate me.  Some women stopped by my office to wish me their best.  One woman came to see me to test my knowledge of anatomy and common sense.

Not one lousy male of the species so much as bid me the time of day.

So much for that.

Wing Walker
With Another Good reason to Not Trust Men

I agree with you Keira and Wing Walker. When I came out full time I had many of the girls at the job rally around me, giving me clothes and such. I was accepted by the women but the guys took about two weeks before they started coming back to the Drop in where I was working at as a social worker. After a couple of years it was like I had always been Cindy, it was just a normal every day experience on the job after that.

Eventually some of the men did come to me for support and advice but it was mostly the women that sought me out. I truly  loved them all like a family after working with these people for over ten years.

Cindy

Question:  Are women generally more liberal, more tolerant? (yeah, I know you can't make blanket statements about any group, but humour me)     Any thoughts as to why this may be?

Yes they are and I can explain why. I've written a book that explains this in detail (www.thewholebrainpath.com). Basically, the right and left hemispheres of the brain experience reality in totally different ways. Men tend to respond to left brain guidance, which is conservative, women to right-brain guidance, which is our liberal hemisphere.  This is supported by both old and current brain research. Their perspectives are so radically different that the only reason left-brain-dominant men and right-brain-dominant women are not engaged in total war is that we all use both brains to some degree so we are not totally polarized. But we are partially polarized.  Each brain sends its perspective of reality to us as conscious spirits and our job is to integrate the two streams of information into one. Much of this is done as the result of what we are taught. The left brain is selfish, like most stereotypical men, as it is its job to protect us as individuals.  The right brain is holistic in perspective, and sees us all as one and is naturally caring and compassionate---and tolerant. The right brain is interested in our survival as a culture,  whereas the left brain is focused on the individual.

What I found is that ones gender is the result of which brain is dominant. Each brain has its own perspective from which we develop a perception (based on experience)  that helps to guide our behavior.  (Behavior is ultimately our choice, but the brain, being modified by our experience, has a powerful influence on our choices, so much so that we don't really have much choice. Basically, we are led by what our brain shows us.)  Fundamentally there are two perspectives and they serve to create gender (perspective and gender being mental energy), masculine and feminine, and two body types, male and female (reflecting our physical energies).  This creates four basic beings, males with a masculine perspective, males with a feminine perspective, females with a feminine perspective and females with a masculine perspective. But of course, gender transcends these stereotypes and is best described in terms of a highly variable continuum; thus, some of us have a strong feminine perspective, some have a moderate feminine perspective, and some a very slight feminine perspective, with a wide variation in between those. Likewise, our masculine perspective.  And in most of us one other the other dominates our thought processes.  A few tend to have a balanced perspective and most of them appear to be bisexual (there is a lot of research yet to be done).

There is this saying that is attributed to a woman, I really do not have a reference for ti, but it is said that: "Males are so craze by sex that they fail to see just how mean women are."

After a few weeks in Estro something change in my brain, and suddenly males and females were seen under a different lens.

So, IMHO women are more tolerant and liberal when is convenient to us. BTW I do agree that we are meaner than men

So far, nearly all men have ignored me, other than to say "Good morning", etc. I've had exactly one man (out of about 100 in my shop) talk to me about "the process", and he wasn't wanting to know why.

Women, otoh, seem to be genuinely curious and friendly. The process (including the surgery--"How do they do that?"), the reasons, am I still married, etc. I've only had one woman look at me with a mild sneer...and she was the wife to one of the workers.

I don't mind, though (about the men in particular). They tend to be jerks anyway...unfortunately a lot of straight cis-women seem to like the jerks.

for me its hard to say? many guys and girls are both nice to me still so i dont know?

I have no scientific evidence, but from experience, I can see how some people might think this is true. Women often tend to be more in touch with their inner selves and to have a more self connectedness. Studies have shown that conservatism and liberalness are not really two sides of a coin. Very conservative people often distrust their inner emotions as inherently evil and to believe in the need for external guidance-- such as from the Bible or Rush Limbaugh-- in order to keep themselves in check. It's been found that such people are more apt to drop their conservatism and ethics during certain emotional states-- such as anger or sex. I think it's very likely that persons with a greater degree of self-integration-- that is, more in touch with their feelings-- are more likely to have what is considered liberal and tolerant views. Women fit that description generally better than men, I think.

~ Lyric ~

women being more tolerant? no, they just hide their real feelings and opinions better. they're naturally politically correct, since this is the easy way to fit in society and make everybody like them. but when you meet a woman's or group of women's prejudice, it's just as bad as anything men can do, if not worse. because men are honest about it hurting you, while women hurt you with their small comments that slowly lead you to lose all self confidence and in the end may even drive you to suicide without anyone ever realizing you were a victim of severe violence.

sorry, but i grew up as a girl. never saw women as "more liberal" in any way. at least with the guys i always knew exactly where i had them. the girls would change according to situation, and i'd never know when the betrayal would happen.

Quote from: Taka on November 20, 2012, 06:58:28 PM
women being more tolerant? no, they just hide their real feelings and opinions better.

I agree; women can be just as bad as men when it comes to acceptance and compassion.

I think sometimes women can be seen as more liberal, because woman had to fight for quite a long time to be seen as something other than her husband's property. It's in women's recent memory, so I think it's easier for women to recognize when there's another group that's fighting for recognition in society. But, at the same time, they can just as intolerant; being raised female and working as a female, I've experienced how women try to keep each other in check and how they can be intolerant to anyone seen as a threat to them, and how they can be open and cheerful around someone and then talk about how much they hate them behind their back.

I don't know that women are innately more liberal, but I do think that liberalism serves women better than conservatism does since conservatism often promotes misogyny.  So it's in women's best interests to go with liberalism.

I also think women express opinions in different ways to men, but I don't know how much of that's natural and how much is learned behaviour.

It depends, I'd say, on what you consider "liberal" and at what stage in their life the women or man is at.  Older people within a culture will nearly always have experienced less diversity than their kids and grandkids- familiarity does breed tolerance so long as the tolerated have enough political power to defend themselves against intolerance.  Conversely with younger people until you get to the very young (under 20) who are, I think, more groupthink than any group.  That can be a liberal groupthink or an intolerant and violent one but either way,  they very young are much less likely to deviate and much more likely to suffer the social consequences of being different.

Women I'd say are less likely to run their mouths openly but prefer to express their opinions as part of a group and definitely less likely to strike out violently.  So, women might work together to have laws passed to restrict or allow a behavior whereas men might strike out violently or be openly vocal in opposition to something they disagree with.  Just because a person doesn't strike out violently doesn't mean the aren't as powerful nor that they disagree with something any less.

In the workplace, it's hard to say but overall I'd guess women help to open things up while men try to close things down, diversity wise.  It's so hard to operate commercially because the livlihood of the firm and the consequences of failure are so great that it makes everyone, especially mainstream retail establishments, have to conform to the least common denominator and marginalizes and deviance from the norm. 

Idk, I'll have to ask my liberal dad and my incredibly narrow-minded, mentally unstable mom.

Quote from: Kate on November 08, 2007, 12:35:36 PM

I tell another woman that I was born a male, and she doesn't care. I AM a woman in function to her, and that's all that matters.

I tell a man I was born male, and he wonder's what's in my pants.

~Kate~

This ^^ is an uber oustanding and very cunning and absolutely true statement.


Yes, cultural, education, and religious issues aside, I would agree with the OP that women tend to be more liberal and tolerant

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on January 03, 2013, 09:55:46 AM
Idk, I'll have to ask my liberal dad and my incredibly narrow-minded, mentally unstable mom.

LOL. Nothing is ever cut-and-dried. Granted, for my trans son, his ally is and generally always has been me, which has been a source of conflict between his birth mom and me.

Until fairly recently he considered me his "dad" -- and I haven't yet pressed either of my kids to stop using that term. Most of his conflict for recognition of his identity is coming from his birth mother, and while I did read her as soft butch when we met, for the most part I don't really regard her as male. Of course I could be mistaken.

I feel I have to echo what others have said about subtle ways that women sometimes injure one another (and recognize that some of the same dynamic is something I've seen more than a few times on trans discussion forums). I would add, though, that it's also easy to project negative messages onto things that are only neutral, and even sometimes on things that are positive.

In coming out to the largest group I've yet come out to (of people I've known for decades in many cases) the responses from people of either sex have been remarkably supportive, and only my imagination running away with its usual patterns of fear and anxiety have seemed to have played a role in anything I might try to see as negative.  There were people there who kind of avoided me, but they were mostly people I had never known well before coming out, and I may have been avoiding them at least as much as they were avoiding me.

One person happens to have a trans son roughly the same age as mine, and he is going through a tough time emotionally himself. (He also admitted to me some trans feelings of his own, so maybe it's not fair that I call him a guy?)  He did finally approach me on the last day, and we had what I considered one of my best conversations, at least with someone I really hadn't connected with much at all before coming out (and that lack of connection IS one of the main reasons I felt it so necessary to come out at this time in the imperfect way I did.

I got an email this morning from him confirming what I'd intuited during our brief conversation at the retreat... that he is going through a rough patch emotionally, trying to be supportive of his newly-declared son, while (presumably... he didn't go into much detail) also dealing with his own set of issues within him(her)self.

One of the tough things with any group is that, given the continued stigma attached to trans identities, you can't always be sure your are talking to someone who identifies as male or female, and if so, how do you assess what sort of reactions you're getting, and from which gender?

Online I notice the women I come across tend to be more tolerant of the trans issue. However in my everyday life, some of the most transphobic and intolerant people around me are women, only three of them are men. I think it largely has to do with how individuals are raised, women are often taught to be more emotional and that it's ok to be that way, so they may connect on a emotional level better. This is just speculation.

I'm not an expert, but from what I remember from evolutionary psychology is that the more "liberal" take is partly due to predisposition. While men were out hunting, women would stay behind and take care of the camp/village/children/... Being confined to a small area they had to develop strategies to ensure that the village remained intact regardless of the circumstances. Basically being forced to live together and be primarily inclusive towards each other (having an argument and running away to start a new tribe was not an option). Hence the initial openness, compensated with the so called "meanness" (after all: one needs a tool to have an argument, being able to hurt someone, without causing disruptive ripples).

Having said that, it's impossible to put all women into the same category (or men).

Quote from: Emmanuelle on January 16, 2013, 04:11:30 AM
I'm not an expert, but from what I remember from evolutionary psychology is that the more "liberal" take is partly due to predisposition. While men were out hunting, women would stay behind and take care of the camp/village/children/... Being confined to a small area they had to develop strategies to ensure that the village remained intact regardless of the circumstances. Basically being forced to live together and be primarily inclusive towards each other (having an argument and running away to start a new tribe was not an option). Hence the initial openness, compensated with the so called "meanness" (after all: one needs a tool to have an argument, being able to hurt someone, without causing disruptive ripples).

Having said that, it's impossible to put all women into the same category (or men).

That's basically what I learnt and how I now see things.

Women are intolerant when they feel their space is threatened. Men are intolerant when they feel their positions within a group is threatened.