Well I will respect Cindy's wishes and refrain from saying what a really think. I'm sorry that you have had to go through all of that, it must've been horrible to read and experience.

For your own good though I would urge you to move on from thinking about her or hoping for any reconciliation. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life. It's her decision to cut ties and you are in no way to blame, but unless she changes her very devout beliefs quite radically in the future, it can never be a healthy relationship with mutual respect.

Quote from: Isabelle on March 15, 2015, 11:09:25 PM
She's qouting Leviticus at you...
If Leviticus were written today, it'd be roundly dismissed as hate speech and banned from schools.

For those that don't know - Leviticus is old testament scripture that was written to the priests and the people of Israel, back before Jesus created the new covenant. The word Leviticus derives from the tribe of Levi, whose members were set aside by God to be His priests and worship leaders. Leviticus means "pertaining to the Levites".

I personally do not believe that anything from that scripture is applicable to the world we live in today - after all, we no longer have to offer blood sacrifices at the temple. I also believe that cherry picking verses from such old scripture to condemn someone today is misguided spirituality.

But that is neither here nor there. I grew up in the Church of Christ and yes they do hold to a strict fundamentalist belief in what the bible says. Your niece has absorbed those teachings as evidenced by the scripture that she quoted to you.

I often wonder if our purpose in life is to annoy the fundies (the fundamentalists) - God does have a sense of humor after all I attend a MCC church in North Hollywood and this journey of mine has opened my eyes to who God is - and it's not what the fundies think. Living in the spirit is far deeper than any list of dos and dont's.

Shawn - all you can do at this point is to be yourself and let her make her own way in life, and maybe you can stay in touch with her. Hopefully someday when she gets older and more mature she will realize that her faith should encompass far more than following a strict list of do's and don'ts from the bible. There is a compassion/empathy element that is missing from such an approach.

I'm sorry to hear about her opinions. That must be really difficult to cope and deal with. However, you are probably better off not being surrounded by people with such blinkered views, especially people that don't realise that is exactly what they are, and I say that as someone raised with a Christian lifestyle.

You must also do what is right for you, not what is right by someone else's world view!

Hi Shawn, I understand how it feels to struggle with family members that use the bible as a shield in improper manners. I am a Christian myself. Religion is the first thing any one attacks when you come out to them. I as well had the bible thrown at me when I came out especially from my in-laws ,who were raised pentecostal, with things like "well God doesn't approve of that" "Your Hell bound" and so forth. I think what happens is that we, as Christians in general, use God as a shield for things we do not understand. I'm sorry that your niece does not want to try to learn more about you and has cut communication with you. Maybe one day she will realize what it means to be compassionate and develop agape love. When that happens, she will be back but I'm sure that will take time.

I forgot to add that the Old Testament could be viewed as irrelevant when it comes to law considering that Jesus fulfilled the Law. That's why us women wearing pants is no longer a path to Hell lol.

Even if she thinks you're committing a sin, she is not God. Only God can and should judge you and she is committing a sin by judging you.

But, give her time. She may come around. I will pray for you.

well she responded again via facebook, but only via message and still unfriended:

QuoteBut how can you be intersexual if a perfect God made you? You are pretty much saying that you were messed up at the beginning..

I responded with this

QuoteThere are many theories on this. One is that God allowed or designed humans and animals to develop this way even though God created them geneticly as male and female from the start.

Or Two, that it's a fallen world that is not perfect anymore and influenced by sin causes these genetic changes. I believe its #1 because other creatures in God's kingdom are also two genders and or can become the other gender. The clown fish (the fish from Finding Nemo) can and will change from male to female if there are no other female fish in the school, so they then can have babies and keep the species alive. There is a Tree Frog that can go from female to male also for the same purpose. There are other creatures that are a blend and reproduce in of themselves.

Even if being transgender or intersex is a result of a fallen world, what should we tell a person, that they have to live with having the mind of one gender and the body of another> Or that they must have corrective surgery as a baby to look more like what the Doctor thinks thy are supposed to be? Intersex babies are often misgendered by Doctors and parents and then are later shunned and even worse , if they tell there parents later on they are not what the Doctor labeled them as.

I think you said it well. I hope she comes around for you in the end. I guess not everyone is opened minded. You have an open view of things because of who you are and you operate on a much higher level than the everyday person oblivious to the stress of life. I like to think of us trans as enlightened individuals.

I had one sister that was kind enough to unfriend me. I had another that made me unfriend her. She got mean and nasty about it. It sucks, but I'm not going to let my sister's backwards views dictate how I live my life. What pisses me off though is that one of them is divorced and remarried. This is also in the bible as being a bad thing and yet they think its perfectly ok. Why is it ok to get divorced (which is in the bible), but not be transgender (which really isn't in the bible)? Personally I think the divorce was the right move. I was on her side. It sucks that they'll let some random man dictate what parts of the bible to listen to and what parts not to listen to.

Quote from: Squircle on March 16, 2015, 04:53:21 AM
Well I will respect Cindy's wishes and refrain from saying what a really think. I'm sorry that you have had to go through all of that, it must've been horrible to read and experience.

For your own good though I would urge you to move on from thinking about her or hoping for any reconciliation. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life. It's her decision to cut ties and you are in no way to blame, but unless she changes her very devout beliefs quite radically in the future, it can never be a healthy relationship with mutual respect.

This is why I think I am going out of my way to try and blend logic with faith, because not only do i need that for my own self and peace of mind (which helped me to decide to transition) I am hoping that she too will (along with her dad and mom) be able to see more clearly. But I fear you could be right which will hurt even more if other family (especially my mom) will never come around. I don't really know this side of the family all that well as I was raised by my stepdad and mom and did not even know about my bio dad until 2002 and met my niece and nephews from that side in 2004/2005

Ok wait , maybe there is a glimmer of hope, then cause I looked back at some of her past posts to facebook:

QuoteGuys, I donated to this AMAZING cause, now it's your turn! Go to this link: http://bit.ly/1vEUNkk

She knows about the Trevor Project and Tyler Oakley! So I'm wondering what is happening here then.

Just so you know, I am an atheist, so I may not be the best one to listen to for advice on religion. But I don't see any reason you should view your decision to transition as a compromise of your faith. The argument that you are the way God made you and you should do nothing to change it makes no sense to begin with. Does that mean no one should ever cut their hair, because it already grows the way God intended? Does that mean you shouldn't take medicine when you're sick, because God is the one who gave you the disease? Does that mean you shouldn't fix a birth defect, because God intended for you to be deformed? The more you think about it the less sense it makes. You know what God (or whatever force you believe is responsible for creating humanity) did? He gave you a mind to think for yourself, and to know the difference between right and wrong. When you only listen to what other people tell you is right, you are ignoring that gift, and I'm sure that would not be what God would want you to do. If you think what you are doing will make you happy, and it doesn't hurt anyone else, then no God worth following would ever object to it.

You're better off without the bitch,**** her

Sorry to have this happen to you.  It really makes me sad when someone is not able to look beyond some sound byte phrase.  I was told yesterday by my dad and step-mother to not tell my kids (17 to 29) about myself until I had been to see a Christian counselor.  Sorry, didn't happen.  This isn't a religious issue, it is a medical one.   

Your niece asked you "But how can you be intersexual if a perfect God made you? You are pretty much saying that you were messed up at the beginning.."

So.......you can ask her........

Why does a child who is diabetic get to take insulin?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child cancer patient get to undergo chemo?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child with a cleft lip or palate get to undergo reconstructive surgery?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child born with Turner syndrome get to take growth hormone and extrogen replacement?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child born with a congenital heart defect get to have heart repair surgery?  Weren't they made perfect?

My basic understanding is that being TG is based on fetal brain development issues.  So while others may have more directly obivious medical issuses, we are suspossed to not seek treatment because we were made perfect?  Please.....

that's...pretty....yah... and i wouldn't really consider myself a christian, but i know that i have read quite a few pro-trans quotes from the bible, so they are out there. i was trying to find some good ones that i had read before but instead i found this and thought it just kinda rang out to me.

1 Samuel 16:7:
"... the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."

Its interesting you bring these issues up. I brought up to one of my sisters the fact that her son had a very minor birth defect over his eye. He opted to get it fixed. I said that what I want isn't all that different, just more extreme. It made absolutely no difference at all. She's been taught to hate the LGBT+ community. She brought up her lesbian friends proving she doesn't, but she confirmed she doesn't accept them. She only tolerates them and me even less so.

Quote from: Jessie Ann on March 16, 2015, 02:41:35 PM
Sorry to have this happen to you.  It really makes me sad when someone is not able to look beyond some sound byte phrase.  I was told yesterday by my dad and step-mother to not tell my kids (17 to 29) about myself until I had been to see a Christian counselor.  Sorry, didn't happen.  This isn't a religious issue, it is a medical one.   

Your niece asked you "But how can you be intersexual if a perfect God made you? You are pretty much saying that you were messed up at the beginning.."

So.......you can ask her........

Why does a child who is diabetic get to take insulin?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child cancer patient get to undergo chemo?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child with a cleft lip or palate get to undergo reconstructive surgery?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child born with Turner syndrome get to take growth hormone and extrogen replacement?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child born with a congenital heart defect get to have heart repair surgery?  Weren't they made perfect?

My basic understanding is that being TG is based on fetal brain development issues.  So while others may have more directly obivious medical issuses, we are suspossed to not seek treatment because we were made perfect?  Please.....

I find the people are generally taught to fear and hate the unknown. Its a defense mechanism for people that have a hard time with change. I noticed it makes no difference whether its from the Christian church or other sources, people will always find something to hide behind to shield themselves from change especially if it directly effects them.

I 100% agree. I was homophobic until I met a gay person. I was transphobic until I came out (I never actually met any that I know of until after I came out).

Quote from: naomi599 on March 16, 2015, 04:23:10 PM
I find the people are generally taught to fear and hate the unknown. Its a defense mechanism for people that have a hard time with change. I noticed it makes no difference whether its from the Christian church or other sources, people will always find something to hide behind to shield themselves from change especially if it directly effects them.

I'm really jealous of your stamina. I mean, I think I wouldn't get patience enough to deal with that girl (your niece) in a baziillion years.

Quote from: Miyuki on March 16, 2015, 01:43:46 PM
Just so you know, I am an atheist, so I may not be the best one to listen to for advice on religion. But I don't see any reason you should view your decision to transition as a compromise of your faith. The argument that you are the way God made you and you should do nothing to change it makes no sense to begin with. Does that mean no one should ever cut their hair, because it already grows the way God intended? Does that mean you shouldn't take medicine when you're sick, because God is the one who gave you the disease? Does that mean you shouldn't fix a birth defect, because God intended for you to be deformed? The more you think about it the less sense it makes. You know what God (or whatever force you believe is responsible for creating humanity) did? He gave you a mind to think for yourself, and to know the difference between right and wrong. When you only listen to what other people tell you is right, you are ignoring that gift, and I'm sure that would not be what God would want you to do. If you think what you are doing will make you happy, and it doesn't hurt anyone else, then no God worth following would ever object to it.

I have said the same thing to someone , well just the hair part. I was even thinking of this recently. 

Quote from: Jessie Ann on March 16, 2015, 02:41:35 PM
Sorry to have this happen to you.  It really makes me sad when someone is not able to look beyond some sound byte phrase.  I was told yesterday by my dad and step-mother to not tell my kids (17 to 29) about myself until I had been to see a Christian counselor.  Sorry, didn't happen.  This isn't a religious issue, it is a medical one.   

Your niece asked you "But how can you be intersexual if a perfect God made you? You are pretty much saying that you were messed up at the beginning.."

So.......you can ask her........

Why does a child who is diabetic get to take insulin?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child cancer patient get to undergo chemo?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child with a cleft lip or palate get to undergo reconstructive surgery?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child born with Turner syndrome get to take growth hormone and extrogen replacement?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child born with a congenital heart defect get to have heart repair surgery?  Weren't they made perfect?

My basic understanding is that being TG is based on fetal brain development issues.  So while others may have more directly obivious medical issuses, we are suspossed to not seek treatment because we were made perfect?  Please.....

Do you mind if i quote these to her? It is very good logic. Not that it will necessarily help as she has the bible belt goggles on and its foggy outside.