Maybe it will end up being signed into law that all bathrooms will be locked and you have to see an attendant (bathroom police) for a key that is attached via a chain to a cement block.

That way someone is always making the decisions for everyone hence will keep public safe.

Quote from: Jill F on March 17, 2015, 11:30:20 AM
I would still feel safer if each stall had a "panic button" in this case.  Real predatory creeps do exist, and a unisex bathroom sort of sounds like a potential proverbial barrel in which to shoot fish.

They will prevail especially in single sex women's restrooms where you are likely to encounter fewer people and less chance of resistance. The "F" on the door has not stopped them.

Quote from: ImagineKate on March 17, 2015, 10:02:22 AM
Sign banning boys over 6 from ladies' room sparks debate

.....................

"Restroom stops often present a dilemma for moms out and about with their young sons: When is it OK to let a boy tag along inside the ladies' room and when is he too old for that practice?"

"A sign posted outside a restroom at a mall in Oklahoma declaring that boys older than 6 should use the men's room is sparking a debate among families".
........................

What about girls using the men's restroom with their dads? Recently I have seen that on occasion and nobody seems to object.

Also, I have seen adult women using the men's restroom and nobody seems to object.

Why should it be any different for boys or men using the women's restroom? Why the different standard?

Sadly, the bill passed the House Government Operations Committee today, 7-4 with 2 members absent.  It was mostly a partisan vote again, with Ken Roberson(R) the only Republican to vote nay.  If the bill passes the next subcommittee, it will be voted on by the general assembly.  I suspect that the bill will get through the House pretty easily.  Our best chance to stop it is probably in the Senate.

Quote from: mac1 on March 17, 2015, 03:03:06 PM
What about girls using the men's restroom with their dads? Recently I have seen that on occasion and nobody seems to object.

Also, I have seen adult women using the men's restroom and nobody seems to object.

Why should it be any different for boys or men using the women's restroom? Why the different standard?

I've carried my daughters to the men's (I don't go to the men's anymore though). Nobody really cared.

The bill has been changed so that the punishment is a misdemeanor in the second degree instead of the first degree.  So instead of a maximum 1 year jail sentence and a $1000 fine, the maximums are now a 60-day jail sentence and a $500 fine.

I thought for sure it was going to get knocked down today, Our brothers and sisters put up a much better response to it than in the Civil Justice Subcommittee, particularly the abundance of well built bearded trans men pointing out they would be in the woman's room as their ID was F.  I think even Artiles thought he was loosing at the end as his final closing was particularly nasty, attacking someone who suggested it was all reminiscent of Nazi Germany. So if any of the boys and girls who were there today are reading this, well done, you may not have won, but you put up a reasoned and good debate as opposed to the bigotry and hired guns brought in by the other side. Sadly the ones behind the bench were not listening.

Given the way this is going i think it is quite likely to get thorough on a partisan basis, maybe our best bet is to try and get the gender identity wording out of HB33 inserted, it wont stop the potential for bathroom police but will include the majority of our community whilst excluding what Artiles claims he is trying to prevent.  On Monday I emailed all the committee representatives with this along with some other thoughts from across the pond but along with my brothers and sisters in the room it seems it all fell on deaf ears.  We can but try though.

Maybe someone with a better legal background than me can confirm but i think HB 33 which looks bipartisan may actually fix this by including us in the anti discrimination laws, as us not being protected is being relied upon with HB583, HB 33 currently reads as below and i think c) should include most of us and exclude what Artiles claims to want.  It just needs to make it into law

( "Gender identity or expression" means gender related identity, appearance, or behavior, whether such gender related identity, appearance, or behavior is different from that traditionally associated with the person's physiology or assigned sex at birth, which gender related identity can be shown by providing evidence, including, but not limited to:
(a) Medical history, care, or treatment of the gender related identity;
(b) Consistent and uniform assertion of the gender related identity; or
(c) Other evidence that the gender related identity is a sincerely held part of a person's core identity and is not being asserted for an improper purpose.


But then i don't hold out much hope with FL, after all this is the state that made a law a couple of years ago that required UK citizens to be in possession of an international driving permit with English translation of our English driving licenses!

What I fear is this happening:

Transman in men's room (passing well): no problem.
Transman in men's room (not passing well): possible hassle/probably no charges filed.
Transman in ladies' room (passing well): hassle/no charges filed. 
Transman in ladies' room (not passing well): possible hassle/no charges filed.
Transwoman in men's room (passing well): hassle/harassment/possible assault.
Transwoman in men's room (not passing well): hassle/harassment/possible assault.
Transwoman in ladies' room (passing well): no hassle nor charges filed unless they are "outed".
Transwoman in ladies' room (not passing well): hassle/charges filed.

I predict that this bill will cause a lot of problems while solving none, and that transwomen who do not pass well will be targeted disproportionally by a wide margin.   The amount of taxpayer funds that will be spent prosecuting innocent people and defending the backlash lawsuits will shortly prove the shortsightedness of this bill. 

Quote from: Beth Andrea on February 05, 2015, 07:56:46 PM
I can see it now...a cis-woman complains "OMG LOOK LOOOK!! THERE'S A MAN IN HERE!!!" 

Police are called, security, medivac, etc...and we find out the "man" is in fact a hirsute cis-woman, who is not blessed with an overly feminine face... 

Well, *NOW*...who's going to get sued? 

This!

Quote from: Jill F on March 17, 2015, 04:55:19 PM
What I fear is this happening:

Transman in men's room (passing well): no problem.
Transman in men's room (not passing well): possible hassle/probably no charges filed.
Transman in ladies' room (passing well): hassle/no charges filed. 
Transman in ladies' room (not passing well): possible hassle/no charges filed.
Transwoman in men's room (passing well): hassle/harassment/possible assault.
Transwoman in men's room (not passing well): hassle/harassment/possible assault.
Transwoman in ladies' room (passing well): no hassle nor charges filed unless they are "outed".
Transwoman in ladies' room (not passing well): hassle/charges filed.

I predict that this bill will cause a lot of problems while solving none, and that transwomen who do not pass well will be targeted disproportionally by a wide margin.   The amount of taxpayer funds that will be spent prosecuting innocent people and defending the backlash lawsuits will shortly prove the shortsightedness of this bill.

Exactly my thoughts but I think we can short circuit this with some good old fashioned civil disobedience. I like the  idea of the selfies but it needs to go much much larger. FTMs showing up  in women's restrooms en masse should drive it straight home.

The last update I've hear is that they will be going by your gender marker on you DL or Passport and they are considering that charges would not be pressed if you could prove that your medically transitioning. Still it's a horrible bill and doesn't do anything to protect anyone. There are already many laws that are strict if anyone is assaulted or harassed in the bathroom. It creates more problems than anything else for everyone, including cis-woman who look masculine. It just puts everyone up for scrutiny.

Quote from: Sydney_NYC on March 17, 2015, 11:11:50 PM
The last update I've hear is that they will be going by your gender marker on you DL or Passport and they are considering that charges would not be pressed if you could prove that your medically transitioning. Still it's a horrible bill and doesn't do anything to protect anyone. There are already many laws that are strict if anyone is assaulted or harassed in the bathroom. It creates more problems than anything else for everyone, including cis-woman who look masculine. It just puts everyone up for scrutiny.

And it still discriminates against those who can't afford nor opt not to have medical treatment for being transgender. 

Cisgender people don't need rubber stamps to use a toilet and neither should we.

The biggest thing for me is that I don't see a purpose for this bill other than to oppress transgender people. Remember I'm a libertarian so I believe in as little government as possible, and this is the very definition of Government overreach.

Quote from: Jill F on March 17, 2015, 04:55:19 PM
What I fear is this happening:

Transman in men's room (passing well): no problem.
Transman in men's room (not passing well): possible hassle/probably no charges filed.
Transman in ladies' room (passing well): hassle/no charges filed. 
Transman in ladies' room (not passing well): possible hassle/no charges filed.
Transwoman in men's room (passing well): hassle/harassment/possible assault.
Transwoman in men's room (not passing well): hassle/harassment/possible assault.
Transwoman in ladies' room (passing well): no hassle nor charges filed unless they are "outed".
Transwoman in ladies' room (not passing well): hassle/charges filed.

I predict that this bill will cause a lot of problems while solving none, and that transwomen who do not pass well will be targeted disproportionally by a wide margin.   The amount of taxpayer funds that will be spent prosecuting innocent people and defending the backlash lawsuits will shortly prove the shortsightedness of this bill.

Jill, I hate to disagree with your analysis, but I feel like the reason why this bill is so horrific is exactly the opposite of what you say.

I don't think it WILL create widespread problems that will be visible to the public. I think Transpeople who pass will continue to use the correct restroom and no one will be the wiser. I think Trans people who are not passable will either correct their documentation or stay away from public restrooms to the detriment of their health but with no impact on the public. Occasionally someone who can't or doesn't update their documentation will be arrested but it will be an infrequent enough event that it will not spark a public outcry. Also occasionally a cisgender person who looks trans will be hassled, but those misunderstandings will be probably be cleared up quickly.

In other words, I think that if it becomes law, it will look to all the world as a successful law. It will be used as a template for other states to create similar laws which are much easier to pass than the current draconian chromosome-based trash. We'll start to see more bathroom bills, and the dominoes will begin to fall.



The most vulnerable segments of our community will be seriously harmed. Those who are deciding between suicide and exploring their gender will have no viable bathroom options, and that will drive them indoors. We'll see suicides among people who might otherwise have made it through transition and enjoyed living a life as their true gender. Those are the true victims of this law.

Also it will harm non-passable trans women from other jurisdictions that do not provide correct documentation. They will need to stay away from Florida (if they know what's good for them) which will impact their travel options but also not affect the Floridian public.

We could always give them exactly what they thought they wanted. The post-op trans men can leave the seats up in the women's room and leave the restroom a generally disgusting mess while trans women can take a really long time and post ops can attempt to use the urinal. I believe this is called malicious compliance.

Quote from: rachel89 on March 18, 2015, 10:48:52 AM
We could always give them exactly what they thought they wanted. The post-op trans men can leave the seats up in the women's room and leave the restroom a generally disgusting mess while trans women can take a really long time and post ops can attempt to use the urinal. I believe this is called malicious compliance.

Similar to a "white mutiny" when you do EXACTLY as ordered AND NOTHING ELSE.

Also, by-the-by, I have a cruise out of Florida next October with some Disney and beach time planned. My endo told me yesterday I'm already a Tanner stage 4 and I'm a small C cup already. I intend to hide absolutely nothing. We can't deal with this mess by just avoiding Florida. It'll just follow us home if we do.

Guess I'm glad I didn't change all my documents yet.  Drivers license says F but I still have a US Passport card that says M.

be well
jenifer

Question, and I apologize if I missed this in the thread. Are businesses required to maintain single sex bathrooms by law? Is this a situation that would allow a savvy business owner to make an end run by simply installing unisex signage? Most owners have no interest in running customers off, and those that do will suffer financial consequences.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 18, 2015, 09:04:39 AM
Jill, I hate to disagree with your analysis, but I feel like the reason why this bill is so horrific is exactly the opposite of what you say.

I don't think it WILL create widespread problems that will be visible to the public. I think Transpeople who pass will continue to use the correct restroom and no one will be the wiser. I think Trans people who are not passable will either correct their documentation or stay away from public restrooms to the detriment of their health but with no impact on the public. Occasionally someone who can't or doesn't update their documentation will be arrested but it will be an infrequent enough event that it will not spark a public outcry. Also occasionally a cisgender person who looks trans will be hassled, but those misunderstandings will be probably be cleared up quickly.

In other words, I think that if it becomes law, it will look to all the world as a successful law. It will be used as a template for other states to create similar laws which are much easier to pass than the current draconian chromosome-based trash. We'll start to see more bathroom bills, and the dominoes will begin to fall.



The most vulnerable segments of our community will be seriously harmed. Those who are deciding between suicide and exploring their gender will have no viable bathroom options, and that will drive them indoors. We'll see suicides among people who might otherwise have made it through transition and enjoyed living a life as their true gender. Those are the true victims of this law.

Also it will harm non-passable trans women from other jurisdictions that do not provide correct documentation. They will need to stay away from Florida (if they know what's good for them) which will impact their travel options but also not affect the Floridian public.

This is how I see it as well

What a farce... How the hell can these jerks look anyone straight in the face and claim to be for "smaller government", "freedumb" and "individual rights" blahh blahh,  is beyond me    Really its scary this has gone as far as it has    Sadly Ive considered moving down there eventually and starting over in a new life eventually but this makes me seriously reconsider that for sure

NO wonder FL has such a high crime rate, they make everything illegal including using the bathroom.