Discussion time! (for both ftm's and mtf's) I was thinking lately about the causes of transsexualism. Wikipedia lists these ones: genetics, brain structure, brain function and prenatal androgen exposure (along with psychological theories, but those are more unlikely imo because there are transgender kids as young as three years old). Which of these do you think is more likely to be the cause? When do you think scientists will find the cause? And once they do, do you think there is a cure? That would mean no more people like us who have to go through so much to be ourselves, but sadly it will probably take many years to find the cure. What would be your guess? In fifty years time, next century...?

So to sum up, these are the initial questions of this debate:
1. What do you think is the cause of transsexualism?
2. When do you think the cause will be scientifically discovered/proofed?
3. Do you think transsexualism will become curable?
4. If so, when do you think it will be curable?

Discuss and have fun everyone!

EDIT: By "cure" I mean an actual cure to transsexualism, not a treatment like transitioning once you're already transgender. I mean before babies are born, a way to make it impossible for a child to be born with transsexualism (I mean as a birth defect / medical condition, the people who don't think it is can just answer "no" to the third question I guess!).

I think there's many causes, it depends on the person affected.

Cure -- depends on your definition of what a cure is. Some magical pill? No. . . at least not anytime soon. Transitioning and being happy? Could be considered a cure by some.

Though "cure" makes it seem like being trans is wrong, like it's a disease. I guess it depends on the cause, but I don't consider my identity as being a disease, so I don't need any cure.

Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
1. What do you think is the cause of transsexualism?

There is no question in my mind that it happens during pregnancy. DES babies were not genetically predisposed to be transgender. They got that way because of chemical conditions in the mother's body.

However, I believe it's possible that there may be genetic factors at play as well. I've often wondered whether our ability to ignore being trans into middle age (while we have a chance to procreate) is a genetic adaptation passed down from our ancestors who were able to reproduce because of it.

Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
2. When do you think the cause will be scientifically discovered/proofed?

Won't be long. They'll be able to rule out genetic factors by looking at relative studies. They've already proven there are physiological differences, so they can't blame it on psychology.

Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
3. Do you think transsexualism will become curable?

No. Would require rewiring our brains.

However, it already is treatable. By transitioning and living as our true gender.

I'm just going to jump into the cure part.
It isn't the transgender that needs "curing " it is society's intolerance and bigotry that needs to be cured.

There are a lot of theories as to why we are born with our bodies disagreeing with our minds as far as our genders. To change that, research that was repeatable would have to be done, and research takes money. Since there is so much misinformation and prejudice against transgenders, they are not likely to get the grants for research.

I don't see any cures in our lifetimes. I'd be satisfied just to be taken off the books as a mental illness.

part of the problem has to do with people's fear of things they don't understand. We are both that and for some people a sin against God. That is always dangerous territory.

having a fool proof way of telling if a three year old just has a good imagination or is truly a transgender would be nice. That would mean getting at the problem prior to  puberty.

sam1234

I find the word "curable" somehow offensive. I AIN'T SICK





Let's not resort to name calling please

Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
1. What do you think is the cause of transsexualism?

Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
2. When do you think the cause will be scientifically discovered/proofed?

It already has been proven (see (1) above)

Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM3. Do you think transsexualism will become curable?

No. It is part of me. To "cure" it would remove part of me and destory the identity that makes me who I am. It would be euthanasia, not a cure. (see next answer)

Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PMEDIT: By "cure" I mean an actual cure to transsexualism, not a treatment like transitioning once you're already transgender. I mean before babies are born, a way to make it impossible for a child to be born with transsexualism

Your "cure" would just be another form of aborting undesirable babies. Where does it stop? Start with transsexuals and then deal with other "defects"? Eliminate colour blindness or presdispositions to cancer or those who will develop other problems in life?

Maybe transsexualism is not so bad after all.... 

Quote1. What do you think is the cause of transsexualism?

Just like cancer, there may be many reasons. I don't think that transgender individuals necessarily have exactly the same problem, issue, or outstanding feature, depending on how you look at it. When I look at nature, I see many cooperative societies. Ants and bees are great examples. They have drones. Why don't the drones have sexual characteristics? They're not needed. Could our existence be nature's way of culling the herd? Or is there a great genetic trait with a hugely positive benefit to our species in there that's just waiting to pop out with the next transgender baby. I read a science fiction book last year where people living off earth in the low gravities of the moons and planets in our solar system had both sexes, a primary and secondary so that when two people got together, they could both produce a child. Nature's way of protecting the species. Or we could just be genetic deviations. Or mom took drugs. Or who knows what. But I can guarantee a shrink I had to see that it DOES NOT involve a sexual fascination with doorknobs.

Quote2. When do you think the cause will be scientifically discovered/proofed?

To find a cause for anything, you need evidence, a working theory, and most of all, lots of money to do the research. Additionally, they will need deceased trans people to direct. I don't think any of these things have any priority anywhere. Gays and Lesbians have much better pull than we do and research in that area is just getting off the ground. I can tell you this though, I used to raise pigeons. I had one that would let the other cocks mount him but once a year he mated with a hen. Go figure.

Quote3. Do you think transsexualism will become curable?

It already is. I'm cured. I transitioned. In fact, being trans was the only "mental illness" that could be cured by surgery.

Quote4. If so, when do you think it will be curable?

I know what you are asking here and the previous question. Quite honestly, we'll be growing children in tanks like in Huxley's Brave New World before we'll find out why it happens or if anyone cares to prevent it. Certainly, I would much preferred to have been born female to begin with. But what if they had fixed me to be a boy in the womb? Would I not still be in the same situation? I think I would have become a completely different individual. And I like who I am. It has been a hard life but a very rich life. I am thankful for it. No, I don't think cures will happen in the womb. I truly believe we will move towards making it easier for those of us to transition and change socially to be more accepting. I think that is where we are headed.

Besides the DES effect its been known to exist for many centuries. There for the cause is nature it self. Kind of like 1 species dies yet another 1000 are new ones in a year. Not exactly sure on the number it was about insects and It could have been more like 1 dies 30 000 new species. Basically nature in general is evolving and part of that for humans (I am sure other species) is transexualism.

Proof that it really does exist just have to look in the past to see many references.

As for (I know what your mean) cure there will be none. Same thing for the common cold. If we did not have the common cold to keep our immune system exercised then anything else might just kill us. So to cure the common cold is actually not a good idea much like finding a cure for transexualim.

I do admit I am pre everything well more accepting and waiting etc. The big but to cure the trans in me is not a cure but rather either complete brainwashing and/or killing whom I really am. As for societal perceptions that's the one thing that needs a cure.

Nailed a few times already. "Cure" is absolutely the wrong way to think about this, because ->-bleeped-<- is not a defect or illness. The "treatment" is only considered psychological treatment because society is so negative toward deviation from its "ideal" gender norms that facing transition can be traumatic. For many of us, those who do not require medical treatment to change our bodies, being accepted when we express our identified gender would be the beginning and end of it. If it weren't frowned upon, discriminated against, and worse by society at large, there would be nothing left to even talk about, any more than we would worry about a cis girl behaving "like a girl."

For those of us, myself included, who do have a problem with our birth anatomy and endogenous sex hormones, a medical treatment is necessary. Parts are invasive (e.g., GRS), parts are not (e.g., HRT). Assuming that this is truly intrinsic and not an effect of the intense transphobia in society, even in an ideal world a treatment would be necessary. IMO, the "cure" you are talking about is more effective GRS---functional gonads (at least in terms of hormone production), easier surgical procedures, etc.

It doesn't matter to me why I am transsexual.  I just am, and the underlying reason is moot.  Even if the cause was pinpointed, it would change nothing. The only thing I can do is move forward and live each day to the fullest.  Once your brain is formed, the die is cast, so I'm not holding out for a "cure".   I'm just going to take my HRT, wear whatever I want and give the haters along the way my well-manicured middle finger. 

The word cure implies a lot here, almost all negative.

The rigid gender binary is a western Judeo-Christian concept and it is an aberration and is not in line with modern biological science, which sees both sex and gender as spectrums.

However "curing" transsexualism appears to imply that we should be either purely male or purely female, thus attempting to reinforce a cultural norm that is scientifically false and which directly harms people.

The medical evidence is accumulating rapidly that neurobiological causes are the root of being transsexual, with perhaps some secondary genetic factors playing a role.

So far as we know, once the white matter structures in the brain are formed, they cannot be changed without killing the patient, so "curing" transsexualism (aside from transition) also implies killing the patient.


I completely doubt whether any "cure" for transsexualism will ever be attempted for the above reason. However, I do believe that transitional related therapies will continue to improve, including eventually stem cell therapies and advanced tissue engineering therapies that will help individuals adapt their existing bodies more fully to their inner sense of gender.

For example, US Department of Defense is sponsoring research to grow penises and testicles for soldiers who lost them in war time. It should be a short step from that position to growing a penis and testicles for an FTM. Likewise, lab grown vaginas are being transplanted under very experimental and test cases and working. This too is not yet a generally available therapy but might be within a decade.

Womb transplants are occurring. Ovary and testicle generation is being worked on.

Someday a trans person will transition and when they come out the other side, they will be able to father a child (FTM) or conceive and bear a child (MTF).

At that point, who needs a "cure" for transsexualism when it involves completely rewiring someone's brain (and maybe erasing who they are) versus allowing them to become the human being they perceive themselves to be?


Thus in my opinion there will never be a "cure" but there will be vastly improved therapies that allow individuals to have full and complete lives in the gender with which they identify.

Quotewhen it involves completely rewiring someone's brain (and maybe erasing who they are)

This is not what I meant by cure, and I completely disagree with it! It would indeed be like erasing who we are.

Hmm I don't think I explained myself very well? I think people are misunderstanding me here, I do agree with what you guys are saying about society needing to be less bigoted and accepting transgender people etc. But I'm not talking about that, I'm not talking about us already transgenders, I'm talking about the babies who will be born transgender, and when that is going to stop. I mean a cure to future unborn transgender children, not us. Let's please think of future generations for a second rather than focus on ourselves all the time. We are past any cure anyway, what we can do is what you guys are saying, get treatment, HRT + GRS, a more liberal society etc. But I'm not talking about that. It's a question directed to people who think transsexualism is like any other birth defect or birth condition (like down syndrome, heart/body defects, autism etc.) that someday will probably be curable. How is this offensive? I'm not saying there's something wrong or bad about us, just like there is nothing wrong with an autistic person, but that doesn't negate the fact that these are problems, actual physical problems - regardless if it bothers you or not. (And since when is being physically/mentally sick an offense anyway?)

Of course, in regards to ->-bleeped-<-, we just don't know, that's why I'm saying the cure questions are only for the people who believe it IS a condition in the first place. People who think it's just a way of identifying oneself don't need to answer that question or can just say "no". Though it's hard for me to imagine that line of thinking, I mean why then be born with the wrong body if you are a man/woman if there is no birth condition? It's not like the whole world could suddenly be born transgender and it would be the most normal thing lol, imagine everybody physically born men identifying as female and vice-versa, it makes no sense (society views aside). Are all humans forever meant to ignore their newborn's sex until they are 5 and can spell out for themselves how they identify before naming them? It's only natural for parents to think of their physically male baby to also be male mentally. And it's not even just that, but think what we've all been through, society aside. Being transgender is a painful experience, we hate our bodies, our names, we have to have surgeries (that have a small but existent risk of death), change legal papers, go on hormones and visit doctors and psychotherapists etc. etc. and all of this just to be who we already are inside.

Wouldn't it be much easier, safer and all around BETTER if we had just been born already the gender we identify with? And here is my question, wouldn't we want for future generations to not need to go through all this (which doesn't even include the society-related problems), and instead be already born in their real genders? I don't see how finding a cure someday might be a bad thing. For the would-be transgender babies at least it would not be. If I were any of those future babies I would certainly wish I had no chance of being born transgender due to it having already been cured in the past. Because I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't wish ->-bleeped-<- on anyone, not even my worst enemies (not that I have enemies xD). But this is all my own personal opinion only, feel free to disagree guys! That is what debates are for lol, if we all agreed then what would be the point hahah. Hope I clarified better what I meant by cure! Now that I think we all understand each other let the discussion begin lol, I won't be able to answer till late tomorrow though. See ya! And thanks for all the answers! It's really nice to see other people's opinions on this.

Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM

So to sum up, these are the initial questions of this debate:
1. What do you think is the cause of transsexualism?
2. When do you think the cause will be scientifically discovered/proofed?
3. Do you think transsexualism will become curable?
4. If so, when do you think it will be curable?

1. What is the cause? I don't know and I don't care. It doesn't matter to me.
2. When will the cause be proven? Never. In the grand scheme of human existence we are small potatoes. Besides we have a cure right now, right? Or am I missing something?

3. When will it be curable? I cured it myself with my transition and surgery. I am one happy camper now.

4. When will it be curable? It has been for 50-60 years now.

Everything else about brain shapes, and prenatal hormones, bad parenting, lousy weather or "there's something in the water" are nonsensical arguments. I could just as easily say it is caused by invisible unicorns.

The fact is this. I am who I am. I do not need to be cured of anything, because there is nothing wrong with me. I righted a wrong that I always knew about myself. TSism doesn't need a cure, society does.

Wow,  this thread is hot

Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 07:43:28 PM
Wouldn't it be much easier, safer and all around BETTER if we had just been born already the gender we identify with?

This works, even in simplistic theory, only for a fraction of the transgender spectrum (i.e., the transsexual folks who are the only ones who can really be thought of as the "wrong" gender).

But, no, absolutely not, it would not be "better" except in a few specific ways.

People along the nonbinary spectrum don't have the "wrong" gender at all. They simply don't line up with the boxes on the forms. This is a defect of the boxes, not the people. Many people love being the way they are.

Even as a pretty binary-feeling transsexual (well, from this side; we'll see where I wind up post-transition I guess), I am happy with the experiences my life has given me. I am not upset that I was born with the body I was.

So, no, even with your clarifications, I don't think you're any warmer. What you are suggesting is "better" only if you accept that the simple, male/female penis/vagina options are "better" than the transgender spectrum.

Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 07:43:28 PM
This is not what I meant by cure, ..... I'm talking about the babies who will be born transgender, and when that is going to stop. I mean a cure to future unborn transgender children, not us.

Eugenics? Only those "fit" to breed should be born? Who decides what is a "preventable defect"?

Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 07:43:28 PM(And since when is being physically/mentally sick an offense anyway?)

Perhaps when dealing with extreme religious zealots and the sort of idiot that passes Bathroom Bills. And TERFs, never forget the TERFs

Wow, there are some seriously thoughtful responses on here! Good conversation starter, Manny! Guess I'll add my two cents (or is it one because of my shortlived experience with being trans? )

1. What do you think is the cause of transsexualism?

Honestly I'm sure we'll pinpoint it some day, but my mother has always had high testosterone levels, and I doubt that stopped when I was developing in her womb. I'm almost positive, for me, that this at least contributed to my GD.

2. When do you think the cause will be scientifically discovered/proofed?

Soon, no doubt. If we don't have it down in the next ten years I'll be shocked.

3. Do you think transsexualism will become curable?

Honestly I don't know if I even want it to be cured... we're all different in our own right, who's to say that living with GD can't be a positive and enlightening experience? We're fully functioning, capable of the same thoughts and emotions as anyone else, and are by no means inherently barred from living a fulfilling existence, same as anyone else. If anything, I think the added perspective and experience we gain would be a shame to "cure." But really, that's just my opinion. Also, "cure" makes us sound sick. I don't think I'm sick, nor do I think any of the wonderful people I've encountered on these forums are, either.

4. If so, when do you think it will be curable?

Well... I don't think they'll "cure" it in my lifetime if at all; first they'd have to establish a direct cause, which will definitely take some time, and then finetuning a "cure" will be another lengthy process entirely.

Thanks for provoking some thought! Always good to clear off the cobwebs in my dusty ol' head.

I'm really disappointed to see so many people picking apart an innocent question just looking for reasons to be up in arms about something.

Manny, I understand what you meant about a "cure" and preventing future generations from being transgender. Gender dysphoria isn't something I would wish on anyone and even if society does catch up and become completely accepting we still have to experience the pain of not being able to tolerate our own bodies and other struggles like getting surgeries to transition.

I believe that gender is hard wired to the brain and that things such as hormone fluctuations in the womb can cause the brain to develop as one gender while the body develops as another. There already is some scientific evidence to support this so hopefully in maybe 5 to 10 years there will be more research to back this up.

That being said, I don't think there ever will be a way to prevent ->-bleeped-<- because gender is on a spectrum. This is the same reason autism can't be "cured" and why its cause is also still unknown. Both are simply labels for different learning styles, different ways of interacting socially, different forms of expression, etc. that deviate from the norm. The only difference is that in the case of transgender people it's our physical bodies that prevent us from functioning within the norms of our gender.

Manny, being transgender is a birth condition, just as the autism spectrum, deafness, and being a little person can be a birth condition. Many of these are also communities. Many of these communities find the concept of "correcting" their condition in the womb offensive. I don't know if we're that kind of community yet, but perhaps we should be. Deep down I don't quite see myself as a woman but as a different type of human who is most similar to a woman than a man. I feel that we, collectively, have something special to contribute to the human condition. Would I wish this upon others? No. Nor do I consider it a horrible thing to be. Were society more enlightened our condition would be no more a burden than heterochromia or albinism. The first time I met with my therapist she recommended a book on the topic, and I recommend it to you, "Far from the Tree" by Andrew Solomon.

As to a cure? There's been a small steady incidence of ->-bleeped-<- as far back as we are aware. In the previous century, following the growth of medicine and the hubris of it's practitioners that incidence has increased. Surely we should find out what we, as a race, are doing to make ->-bleeped-<- more common. The question, like all such, is if the tradeoff is worth what's gained. I'm not sure that question can be answered. If it can't can we afford the hubris to end what we don't fully understand?

My biggest fear is that most of the solutions in such cases tend to be to develop a test in the womb and then to abort the child if the answer doesn't please the parents.