Ok, i'm having trouble wording things tonight, so bear with me.
What are the differences between being androgyne and having an androgynous personality?
Can one be an androgynous male or female without being androgyne?
I'm talking personality here, not appearance.

Ok gonna take a stab at this, but there really isn't a right or wrong answer I don't think.

Androgynous is usually refered to just appearance, I don't know if there is such thing as an androgynous personality.  (I really don't think your personality can be gendered). 

Being androgyne is a gender identity, it encompasses everything about you.  (Just as male or female). 

However the rabbit hole goes deeper -

(For the purposes of Susans) androgyne is also an umbrella term for all non-binary gender identities (neutrois, null, bigender, androgyne, '3rd gender' or another gender unknown yet etc.).

So, Can you have an androgynous personality without being androgyne.  Well, If you think you can, then I won't be one to tell you that you can't    But I don't think that *I* can,  I really don't feel that personality traits can be gendered, I think your personality just reflects who you are.

did that make any sense whatsoever? lol  

Quote from: Alison on November 10, 2007, 01:54:24 AM
Ok gonna take a stab at this, but there really isn't a right or wrong answer I don't think.

Androgynous is usually refered to just appearance, I don't know if there is such thing as an androgynous personality.  (I really don't think your personality can be gendered). 

Being androgyne is a gender identity, it encompasses everything about you.  (Just as male or female). 

However the rabbit hole goes deeper -

(For the purposes of Susans) androgyne is also an umbrella term for all non-binary gender identities (neutrois, null, bigender, androgyne, '3rd gender' or another gender unknown yet etc.).

So, Can you have an androgynous personality without being androgyne.  Well, If you think you can, then I won't be one to tell you that you can't    But I don't think that *I* can,  I really don't feel that personality traits can be gendered, I think your personality just reflects who you are.

did that make any sense whatsoever? lol  

I believe that my personality is feminine or womanly.  I know that after having had to deal with a masculine or manly "streak" in it for over 50 years.  Mother Estrogen fixed all that and I am not only grateful for this change, I am very aware of it.  Therefore, I believe that a personality can also be androgynous.

Wing Walker

These are my opinions.

Androgyne I think more of refers to how you relate to yourself. How you identify on a deep primal level. Its how you are in the sense of "being". It may be something unknown consciously and not understood fully. Yet its something that has a very real influence on day-to-day life. Its something that is 'there' and has always been there in one form or another.

I personally think of it as a life force. A force in life that dwells in a certain place where I am at ease.

The concept of gender is something elusive to me. I know the raw definition. However,  even over the period of my life seeing it evolve and change. That which is androgynous, masculine, feminine, or outside of those things that people, or individuals , even myself consider, relate to, and interact with: as opposed to those that identify as 'being' at their raw primal core a gender which can be called androgyne.

The part of me that knows, feels, thinks, explores, decides, judges, and travels that path on the journey, that identity that sometimes I put a word on, is my gender identity.

As to personality vs identity I think they can be different or they can be similar. One can identify as a certain way, yet choose or feel compelled for whatever reason, to not show it outwardly. Or one could be non=androgyne, yet have a personality that feels for some reason androgynous. There are some gay feminine guys and lesbian girls that I have never heard identify as androgyne, be extremely androgynous in their personalities. Same with heterosexuals. My best friend from childhood is very androgynous, though he never identified as being androgyne. Unless they are hiding their inner feelings of being androgyne, I cant really assume wheither they are or not, but for the time being I would have to conclude that they are not. That it is just their comfortable way of expressing their personality, not that they feel like their gender identity is being androgyne.

Having said that I would not want to fall into a trap of thinking that the opposite is true in that no person's androgynous personalities have androgyne gender identities. If one is looking to find other androgynes, other evidence must be gathered before judging who is who if one is looking for others. And that androgynous personality may or may not be one indicator. That it merit further talking and sharing of experiences.

I have heard the word 'Androgyny' used to describe the learned social construct of acting in androgynous ways. Maybe this is a word along the lines of someone's personality.

I am not sure about the raw definitions, but how I have seen it is.

Androgyne= Gender Identity; How one Identifies gender wise, State of Being
Androgynous= Expression, Behavioral, External Cues, Communications
Androgyny= Social relations, Roles, Interaction, Way of Thinking, Methods of Living, Techniques, (along the lines of Sandra Bem stuff) Social-Cultural

Which in my mind is similar to :
Man, Masculine, Manly

And

Woman, Feminine, and Womanly

Thats my opinion at least.

KK

Quote from: Nero on November 10, 2007, 01:41:58 AM
Ok, i'm having trouble wording things tonight, so bear with me.
What are the differences between being androgyne and having an androgynous personality?
Can one be an androgynous male or female without being androgyne?
I'm talking personality here, not appearance.

For me, it goes way beyond personality, it's a core aspect of my being. My personality traits, such as being an introvert, artistic, etc., are also ingrained, but it's different than my gender identity. As an example, a TS person knows that their gender isn't simply a personality trait, it's who they are. Same thing for an androgyne.

Yes, there are certainly people who can appear androgynous, but not identify as such.

zythyra

I think you might stop being androgynous, but you'll never stop being androgyne?

i'd say androgynous is more surface than androgyne

I think androgyne is internally defined,
androgynous is externally defined.

You can be an androgyne and not express it in an externally noticeable way, thus your not androgynous. You could be andrynous because of behavior

We like what Keira was saying about Androgyne being internally defined and Androgynous as being externally defined. We also liked KKs comparison
Man, Masculine, Manly
Woman, Feminine, Womanly
Androgyne, Androgynous, Androgyny
That puts a lot of context there for others that don't understand what the difference is.

Good job folks, very productive topic.

Mia and Marq

Thanks everybody. That helped explain things.

What would be defined as external or 'surface' androgynous behaviour?
Maybe some examples?
Again, we're talking personality or behaviour here, not appearance.

Androgynous would be defined by all aspects of person, behavior, how they dress, anything that someone else can notice.

You could have an androgynous behavior without changing the way you dress from the gender norm. There's no reason why how you dress and how you act should be tied, but they often are.

I like Keira's take on it. But I think you would be hard pressed to say exactly what is and isn't gendered behaviour. There are so many shades of things, and taken out of context many behaviours are not gendered at all. For example, in my country it is ok for women to cry at movies but not generally considered cool for men. But I know women who don't cry in movies and I know some men that shed tears during emotional bits. Are those men considered girly or the women manly? Not at all.

Maybe the only true gendered behaviour is now people communicate and interact with each other. The subtext in conversations and the sharing of common understandings, the style of language, expression of emotion and the use of words. Perhaps you can communicate in an androgynous manner but it would be very hard to spot. At best you would probably either get both males and females saying that the androgynous converser is easy to talk too or both would find them difficult to talk too. In the former, males would likely find they relate to the androgynous converser in say a manly way, while women would be able to relate to them in a womanly way.

Perhaps many great communicators and terrible communicators are androgenous communicators?

For a man to be watching an action film, in bed with a milky chocolate bar and cherries...

To do the 'I agree', reinforcement feminine communication style, but with arms folded and no eye contact.

things like that would seem androgynous. Also for a male to do female type gestures and things, but to do them in a male way...it often seems that females use more hand gestures for example, but to do many hand gestures in a male manner, (which i can think of but not describe). It would seem a politicians studied moves are a self-concious attempt at this kind of comunicational androgyny.

Quote from: Keira on November 11, 2007, 11:30:22 AM

Androgynous would be defined by all aspects of person, behavior, how they dress, anything that someone else can notice.

You could have an androgynous behavior without changing the way you dress from the gender norm. There's no reason why how you dress and how you act should be tied, but they often are.

I agree. There is no reason why anyone should feel compelled to dress, behave, present themselves, or look how any constructed social thing called Gender scripts one to dress. Only personal preference, unless one feels obligated to dress, act, or behave a certain way by choice.

This is my opinion expanded with examples.

Androgynous I look at as very visual or direct. Its the four of the five senses: sight, smell, touch, sound (can't see taste fitting in there). Its an adjective used to describe.

Androgyny rather is more psychological yet still learned more or less. Learning to be a certain way, or act in certain ways that are more equal with gender roles, behavior, and characteristics. Such as raising children equally, division of labor without glass ceilings or division, division of chores around the house, appropriate work behavior and ethics, general social behavior that has neutral or both masculine or feminine techniques, communications styles (Not just Mars or Venus talk and understanding, rather proficiency in both languages and understanding).

And example of American cultural gender scripts for masculine, feminine, nuetral, and both gender traits/personality can be found http://www.ta-tutor.com/webpdf/ram184.pdf. According to Sandra Bem, having nearly equal, or very little degrees of difference between how strong the masculine and feminine attributes in a person is psychological androgyny. These types of behavior, characteristics, and aspects are widely accepted as being learned and not really depending on gender identity. Though they are behaviors and can be part of one's personality and be involved in one's roles, including gender roles.
Full list of characteristics to see the neutral ones is at http://www.ta-tutor.com/webpdf/ram183.pdf

Is this the types of personality qualities that you are refering to?

Feminism deals with this learned Androgyny as an ideal, though may occasionally use the word 'Androgynous' in the same sense to also describe this.

Gender identity: {Using Seshatneferw's classification male, female, both, none, not clear https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,19108.msg147275.html#msg147275} Self defined.
Gender expression: (anywhere from masculine to feminine, including neutral, other, and androgynous depending on personal preference)
Gender roles: more of the behavior, personality, and characteristics psyghologically presented for certain situations and even different for varied situations.
Gender scripts: Those cultural bahavior, characteristics, ideals, aspects in a society or group that cues, causes, or leads to an average society member to judge, blur, adhere to, or confuse another person as being of the {whatever} gender.