Quote from: marikvulpina on March 20, 2015, 08:37:54 AM
causes are not one simple thing but studies are converging on the idea that the human brain is sexually dimorphous, and trans people physically have the brain structures of their percieved gender, making transgender-ness a kind of "invisible" intersex condition.

- Men have twice as many somatostatin neurons as women, yet trans women - even those who had not had oestrogen therapy - had the same amount as cis women (Kruijver et al., 2000).

- In Luders et al. (2009), 24 MTF transsexuals not-yet treated with oestrogen were studied via MRI, and were found to have significantly larger volume of grey matter in the right putamen compared to men.

- The androgen receptor (AR), also known as NR3C4, is activated by the binding of testosterone, where it plays a critical role in the forming of male sex characteristics. Hare et al. (2009) found that MTF transsexuals had longer repeat lengths on the gene, which reduced its effectiveness at binding testosterone.

as for "cures", you're obviously not going to get much traction for mucking around with the physical structures of one's brain. however, there is some exciting progress into medical technologies that some day might not only produce better surgical results for both mtfs and ftms, but erase our dependence on artificial hormones:

- 3d printed organs, for example

-and though the technique is currently "not suited for" trans women, surely there's enough interest to further develop womb transplants.

the future looks good for us.

And even your description, good as it is, is oversimplified. Any one person can have any or all of those diversions. Many different situations can induce those changes, drugs, environmental conditions, spontaneous or inherited mutations, probably others. The genetic conditions that can cause our condition may be there for entirely different reasons. Sickle cell anemia is caused by a mutation that helps protect from malaria. Many northern European bloodlines have a mutation supplying immunity to AIDS even though, as far as anyone can tell AIDS didn't exist until the middle of the last century, certainly not all the way up there.

Manny, here's the problem I see, ok? And I'm not trying to be difficult here, just focusing on where the science is today.

Trans brains largely resemble, down in the white matter structures especially, the brains of the gender with which they identify. The degree to which they resemble the other gender's brain varies, as Dee Walker noted, but the variations are there. Tracking all these variations so early in pregnancy is hard!

What do I mean by that? Well, what's really difficult about this is most of these differences occur because of variations in hormone levels in utero between the 8th and 16th week of pregnancy. Many women are just fully realizing they are pregnant by the 5th or 6th week, and those critical 8 weeks, from the 8th to 16th week occur so early and so fast, that to counter hormonal imbalances in the womb would almost required 24/7 monitoring in a hospital setting with implants into the womb.

So, medically, I'm not sure how practical "stopping" a child from developing as transgender actually is. And note, we often cannot tell the sex of the baby clearly at 8 weeks either, so flooding the womb with a specific hormone only to learn the baby was the other sex, means we just created a transgender child.

I'm not trying to be flippant, just that I see no practical way, given what we know today about the neurobiological origins of being transsexual, in stopping this from happening.

But I do see very practical ways in which, as soon as a child is identified as trans, that the child is assisted in determining who they are, what steps need to be done medically, and how to give them a full and rich life.

That's why I mentioned stem cell science and tissue engineering. Someday transwomen will be given full female reproductive organs and can live as any other women should she wish, have children should she wish, etc. Likewise for transmen - full and complete functioning reproductive organs that allow them to become fathers, etc.

That's where I see things ultimately going, because the window that defines transsexuality appears to happen so early, and can be so hard to identify, that I'm not sure we can ever stop it from happening. But I do think we can have continually improving therapies for it.

I think the "cure" for being trans is partly society accepting this is a medical condition, and then having full and complete therapies to allow the child to develop as the gender with which they identify, supplemented by medical therapies to enhance and enable that gender role in society.


In sum, I don't see any practical way to stop a child from developing in the womb as trans. Consequently, it's therapies and social acceptance that become "the cure", at least to me. (That's my opinion and I realize others may feel differently and I respect those opinions, just differ with them.)

Quote from: AndreaLinda on March 18, 2015, 06:04:31 PM
I find the word "curable" somehow offensive. I AIN'T SICK

Agreed.

This begs the question.

If you are trans, we know many people who aren't happy with it. That said, once transitioned aren't you happy? I mean mostly. I'm not even fully transitioned and I'm very happy with what I have become and where I will go.

I would say the"cure" is already here. Transition.

I was actually just thinking about my transition journey today. Exactly 1 year ago I didn't even know I was transgender (Although there were indicators, I didn't question until May 2014). I was even transphobic.
I initially accepted my status as wishing I had been born XX. I had no plans to transition. Given the opportunity to magically flip Y to X I would have done it. I planned to keep everything to myself and just wear skirts in the evenings.
I eventually decided that wasn't good enough and opted to start transitioning. I started therapy hoping more than anything I would pass in the end. I would still happily accept a magical out.
Now here I am transitioning. Although I would like to pass in the end, I would be fine if I don't. I would take a magical surgery with no pain and instantly healed. (I find it hard to believe anyone would prefer a real surgery vs a magical one), but not a magical DNA swap. I am happy that I am transgender. I wouldn't want to be a cis-girl because its a huge part of who I am even if I didn't acknowledge it until more recently it was always there.
While I'm hardly "cured", I will be some day. In just 4 months on HRT alone its made a huge difference. I can't even begin to imagine what it will be like after the surgery.

Thanks forgot about the eyes too and if not mistaken can be red.

Quote from: White Rabbit on March 18, 2015, 05:25:18 PM
I'm just going to jump into the cure part.
It isn't the transgender that needs "curing " it is society's intolerance and bigotry that needs to be cured.

THIS!

As much as I HATE being trans, in many ways I feel I have benefited by it. As much as don't like to admit it... a net positive. And believe me, there have been some BIG negatives.

Without a doubt we are decades away from even beginning to thing about "ReWiring" a brain. Being "Trans" is not like being a Sociopath. The problem is the extreme transphobia that is omnipresent and... TBH, I believe for the most part Socially Acceptable with nary a token tisk-tisk... maybe when a disparaging word is uttered.

I have seen AMAZING societal changes towards us since the late 60's. Transphobia will never be erased. Just as any other prejudice, it is "The Human Condition". Different is "Bad". Biology (and DNA) is destiny. It takes a LOT of effort to affect change. Just look at what it takes for us on an individual basis, suffering, and in great distress, AKA Well Motivated, to make any sort of change. Being 'Trans' is something that extremely difficult for others to empathize with.

I am not the one who needs "A Cure".

I've seen and heard some Extremely Vocal "Cured" T's... I'll take my pain any day over the shear hatred and anger towards people in pain those "Cured" and presumed healthy(?) people are.

Not all transgenders that have had HRT and surgery are happy. You could say that about anyone, but I'm focusing on transgenders here. Not everyone has the money to finish all the want to have done, and that is an individual thing. Some people are perfectly happy with just passing while others need to go the whole way.

I don't think its the same thing as wishing you didn't have that zit on your forehead or wished you had blonde hair instead of brown. We have to experience the world at least in part through our bodies, and if that means being reminded that our minds and bodies don't match every time we go to the bathroom, change in a locker room, get out of the shower or want to have intimate relations with our partners, that can be a problem. Whether you choose to say it needs a cure, or a change or surgery, whatever, its still what it is.

I do agree with JoanneB in that there are some benefits from having had to deal with it. Knowing yourself, perhaps better than you would have otherwise, gaining inner strength and idependance. All those things are good and I'm sure a large number of people who are transgenders feel that way.

The people who are left with anger, isolation and deep sadness can't be ignored though. For them, it is a problem. Even with support and HRT and surgery, they still feel  like they aren't whole. An F to M aquaintence of mine years ago was like that. He even had a wife who was very supportive and loving. No, he wasn't ill, but he wasn't well either.

Maybe there will be a way to avoid the mind disagreeing with the body some day, but in the meantime, the best we can do is try and support each other, take the good and try to deal with the bad.

sam1234

I know.... let's get all the mtf and ftm people together, let them pair up together and do brain transplants. They did it on TV!

Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
Discussion time! (for both ftm's and mtf's) I was thinking lately about the causes of transsexualism. Wikipedia lists these ones: genetics, brain structure, brain function and prenatal androgen exposure (along with psychological theories, but those are more unlikely imo because there are transgender kids as young as three years old). Which of these do you think is more likely to be the cause? When do you think scientists will find the cause?

They already have. Gender identity is something that's innate, and depends on physical differences that are built into the structure of your brain before you're born. As with everything else related to sexual development, whether you get the male version or the female version depends on whether there are androgenic hormones (testosterone and DHT) present or not during the critical period when the relevant development is taking place.

The critical period for genital development is 7 to 12 weeks after conception. If androgenic hormones are present during that time, you'll develop male genitals, otherwise your genitals develop as female. The critical period for brain development isn't as clearly defined, but (based on the animal research), doesn't start until after genital development is complete, and in primates, appears to be the second half of the pregnancy.

I think the main reason why this is in any way controversial, is that doctors and the pharma industry have inadvertently caused a large number of cases of transsexuality, perhaps even the majority. For decades, they've been giving artificial female hormones (estrogens and progestins) as treatments to prevent miscarriages and premature births. In adult men, both estrogens and progestins are highly effective at suppressing testosterone production, and the dosages typically being used in these miscarriage treatments are well beyond what will completely shut down T production in an adult man.

In the currently used treatments, the treatment starts between 16 and 21 weeks after conception and continues for the remainder of the pregnancy. This is after the critical period for genital development has already ended, but covers more or less the entire critical period for brain development. With the now discontinued drug DES, the treatment was usually started somewhat earlier in the pregnancy (sometimes as early as 7 weeks), which would explain why there appear to have been quite high rates of genital abnormalities associated with DES exposure, but not with the newer treatments. Either way though, the fetus ends up being exposed to high doses of testosterone-suppressing hormones during the critical period for brain development, which, in theory at least, should result in the brain developing as female instead of male.

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And once they do, do you think there is a cure? That would mean no more people like us who have to go through so much to be ourselves, but sadly it will probably take many years to find the cure. What would be your guess? In fifty years time, next century...?

It's something that's built into the structure of your brain and is a part of who you are. Even if there were some way of magically rewiring your brain to change it from female into male, your personality, behaviour, emotions and everything else that defines who you are as a person would change too, so you'd no longer be the same person. All you can do really is find a way of dealing with it!

I know initially my mom was having a hard time (but not as bad as my sisters) dealing with it. She actually said something about wondering if it was her fault. I told her it didn't matter. I am who I am. I'm at a point where I love being me trans included. Being trans has helped me to see a world I never would have otherwise seen had I just been born female.

If we could be turned into somebody else with a pill, where would the person we were at first go?  Erased from existence?  If you made such a fundamental and encompassing change to yourself, could you really see the new person as yourself?  I imagine the cis male version of myself, and while part of me is jealous of him and how many advantages he has in life, I cannot see him as myself.  He is a different person altogether than I am.

If such a pill actually existed I would, being the trans woman version of myself, consider it an endangerment to my being.  Truly.

Sorry for disappearing guys! Had my last exam yesterday and had to make a last effort, but I'm back! I'm reading all the replies now, THANKS EVERYONE for your inputs and opinions, I'm enjoying so much this discussion, even if I disagree with much of what's been said, I guess that's the fun of it hahah. Gonna finish reading the posts now that I have more time!

1.  I don't know what the cause behind the bodily disconnection and the nonacceptance with the sex specific parts but for other aspects such as expression and presentation could be blamed at the socially constructed binary system of how the two genders should either be like this or like that. 


2. I don't know about this that much and I don't know if I should care because what is done is done.  Maybe ->-bleeped-<- should be considered as an intersex condition since it makes it more valid for some non-trans friendly/ close minded doctors.

3.  I don't know nor do I have any hope for a cure but it's probably because doctors generally don't care enough about this condition or take it seriously like they do other birth defects.  For me, a cure would have been to at least NOT go into puberty or some safe nonsurgical method that makes you grow into the sex (body) you identify as(right before secondary sexual characteristics form) despite not initially identifying with the incorrect genitalia you were born with.  At least then there wouldn't be a necessity for undergoing multiple procedures.

As for preventing it from occurring before birth, I can't say anything about that since I am completely non binary and I would still be like the way I am had I been born cismale. 

4.  I don't know at the moment.

Quote from: makipu on March 25, 2015, 02:19:13 PM
3.  I don't know nor do I have any hope for a cure but it's probably because doctors generally don't care enough about this condition or take it seriously like they do other birth defects.  For me, a cure would have been to at least NOT go into puberty or some safe nonsurgical method that makes you grow into the sex (body) you identify as(right before secondary sexual characteristics form) despite not initially identifying with the incorrect genitalia you were born with.  At least then there wouldn't be a necessity for undergoing multiple procedures.

My first thoughts that I can remember were those of not being right. I knew it. Oh, how I wish I hadn't gone through puberty. Now I see parents helping their kids get hormone blockers and paying for their surgeries and all that stuff. I am so thrilled to see that at least some of us are recognized early on and get the needed support to not have to endure the clumsy transition.

Cindi

Quote from: makipu on March 25, 2015, 02:19:13 PM
Maybe ->-bleeped-<- should be considered as an intersex condition since it makes it more valid for some non-trans friendly/ close minded doctors.

Making Transgender an Intersex condition, wouldn't make it any easier or valid.  In fact, some of my brothers and sisters have a harder time trying to find doctors who know anything about Intersex stuff. 

And if you thought, telling strangers what Trangender was, try explaining Intersex to people.  I tell everyone I meat, and want to learn about it, and I still have people who don't understand.

My new and only endocrinologist, felt it was a moot point on a diagnosis since I'm transitioning already.  But there in lies the problem.  Just because I'm transitioning doesn't mean I still have medical problems.  She told me, since she didn't really know much about it, she would most likely pass me off to a specialist.  Instead. she just didn't do anything. 

Sadly, I don't see doctors adding Transgender to the list of Intersex conditions anytime soon.  I think the main reason is, ->-bleeped-<- doesn't effect the body, but if just effects the brain.  Even with the mildest Intersex condition, the whole body is effected.

Cause?  My vote is for genetic factors.  With my siblings there's me, my sister who identifies as lesbian, but told me once that she has never felt like a woman, my younger brother who came out as an effeminate gay guy when he was young and now spends all his time trying to hide that fact and is actually quite hostile to me.  And my other brother who is completely 'normal' and is annoyed with the rest of us for making his life difficult.

My born with an 'M' on her birth certificate daughter identifies as a 'demi-girl' and is on female HRT because her natural testosterone has seriously toxic effects.

And last of all my Mum told me back when I was still caring for her when she was quite elderly that my Dad used to crossdress back when he was a teenager.  Daring stuff for the 1930s!  In later life my dad was hostile to the thought of any of us being 'queer' and my younger brother who was the first of us to come out very nearly got thrown out on the street.

So you can see where I'm coming from with my vote.

Cure? - if I have a female brain I'd want to be a woman, but on the other hand I never saw myself as being sick and I should be able to live my life the way I need to without suffering prejudice.

Quote from: Rudy King on March 25, 2015, 05:23:28 PM
Sadly, I don't see doctors adding Transgender to the list of Intersex conditions anytime soon.  I think the main reason is, ->-bleeped-<- doesn't effect the body, but if just effects the brain.  Even with the mildest Intersex condition, the whole body is effected.

That's not necessarily the case at all. If you look at some of the stuff I've posted on here previously, a lot of MTFs have signs of "eunuchoid habitus", which is a type of body structure that results from having below normal male testosterone as you go through puberty, and is something that's usually associated with intersex conditions. Conversely, FTMs have considerably higher than normal rates of PCOS and hyperandrogenism, endocrine disorders that result from above normal female production of testosterone. Intersexuality and transsexuality are linked conditions, and I think the difference is that intersex is the result of abnormal hormones during the early part of the pregnancy (the first trimester), whereas transness results from abnormal hormones during the second half of the pregnancy. They both have the same underlying cause though (abnormal hormones during the critical period when prenatal development is taking place), so you see a fair bit of overlap between the two.

Agreed, Hugh! And that's part of the problem. There is no neat single picture that captures this. It is a spectrum of effects. I think we have to remember that. I never had the stereotypical male V shaped upper body. Rather I had a very androgynous body and in high school I was even teased (playfully) that in a track warmup suit from behind I looked like one of the girls (longer hair, very straight body structure). My t-levels before beginning HRT we below normal. My "normal" was 290 when the normal range is 300-1200 with preferred "healthy" range being 400-600. (I think it's ng/dl units but don't recall for certain offhand.)

So there's no single "thing" that marks us as trans, though there is a huge body of evidence that white matter brain structures play a role. Most of the thinking in that area assigns it to prenatal hormone ratios in utero, but as others note, there may be genetic factors that impact that as well, making it more or less obvious.

And the manifestations of these vary so widely that how do we even know what to look for before a child tells us "I am a boy/girl" when we think they are the opposite?

Curing implies a diagnosis. Diagnosis implies a clear identifiable set of conditions but as we've been discussing, the "symptom" range for being trans is huge and not conducive to easy diagnosis until well after you are trans.

Quote from: LizMarie on March 26, 2015, 11:51:46 AM
Agreed, Hugh! And that's part of the problem. There is no neat single picture that captures this. It is a spectrum of effects. I think we have to remember that. I never had the stereotypical male V shaped upper body. Rather I had a very androgynous body and in high school I was even teased (playfully) that in a track warmup suit from behind I looked like one of the girls (longer hair, very straight body structure). My t-levels before beginning HRT we below normal. My "normal" was 290 when the normal range is 300-1200 with preferred "healthy" range being 400-600. (I think it's ng/dl units but don't recall for certain offhand.)

According to this study:
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2010-3012

the average (mean) total T for normal, healthy men is 723.8 ng/dl. There are a lot of doctors trying to tell their patients that levels far below that are "normal", however there's no scientific basis for those claims. From my own experiences and what I've seen people saying in the hypogonadism forums I subscribe to, once your total T drops below about 500 ng/dl, it becomes more and more likely that you'll start developing symptoms of hypogonadism (depression, loss of motivation, inability to think clearly, ED, muscle wasting etc).

It's only relatively recently that I've had my hormone levels measured, however there are signs that I've had below normal male T levels all my life.


This is a montage of photos of me when I was aged about 12, which I've been using to illustrate how my body structure is different from a normal male's. You can see that I've got feminine-looking facial features, long, slender arms and legs, my legs are very long in relation to my upper body, I've got a female digit ratio (ring and index fingers are almost exactly the same length). In the third photo I'm standing next to my older brother, and you can see how he's got a totally different build to me - a much heavier bone structure and much more heavily built overall, and although we're almost exactly the same height, his legs are noticeably shorter and his trunk noticeably longer than my own. My brothers (and even one of my sisters) developed severe acne as teenagers, whereas my skin remained almost totally clear (apparently, that's another symptom of reduced sex hormone production).  In my case, the low T production is definitely due to secondary hypogonadism (meaning that my testicles are OK and the problem lies with the hormone-regulating regions of my brain, the hypothalamus and pituitary), since I'm currently treating it quite successfully with fertility drugs.

Other unusual things about me are that I was born with a genital abnormality called a hydrocele, which is something that's associated with lowered androgen levels during prenatal development. I've also got quite feminine body language, and, as a teenager, had the same problems of shyness and being bullied and ostracized that seem to very commonly happen as a result of DES exposure. My whole life story is quite similar to what seems to commonly happen to DES "sons", the main difference being that I don't fully identify as a woman, but rather, there's some parts of me that are quite strongly male, other parts that are quite strongly female, and probably some things that are neither male nor female too (although it's hard to tell, since I have no way of knowing for sure how other people experience the world!).

Based on what I've seen of the effects of DES, I was definitely exposed to synthetic female hormones during my prenatal development. I think the reason only part of my identity ended up female is that the exposure was during the second trimester only, and I had normal male development during both the first and third trimesters. With DES (and similar hormone treatments), the exposure was typically during the second and third trimesters, so you'd only get normal male development during the first trimester (and female development for the remainder of the pregnancy).

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So there's no single "thing" that marks us as trans, though there is a huge body of evidence that white matter brain structures play a role. Most of the thinking in that area assigns it to prenatal hormone ratios in utero, but as others note, there may be genetic factors that impact that as well, making it more or less obvious.

If you look at people with the condition Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, their resemblance to ordinary women (despite being genetically male) is so strong, that it shows that male development in people must essentially entirely be due to the action of androgenic hormones (testosterone and DHT) on androgen receptors, with genetic or other factors playing at best only a very minor role. The only difference between CAIS women and the genetic males who turn into men is a single mutation to the gene for the androgen receptors, that makes the cells throughout their body completely unable to detect or react to androgenic hormones. In all other respects they're exactly the same as the genetic males who turn into men, with a fully functioning Y chromosome, internal testicles in place of ovaries, and even normal to high T levels (although the mutation renders them completely insensitive to T, so it has no effect on them). In humans, maleness is entirely driven through the action of androgenic hormones on androgen receptors. This is something that's very counterintuitive, but nonetheless, it's not having a Y chromosome that makes you male, it's being exposed to androgenic hormones during your prenatal development. Being exposed to DES, or anything else that suppresses testosterone, during that critical time, can cause part of your prenatal development to occur as female instead of male, as I believe has happened to me and to millions of other genetically male people when our mothers were given DES or similar during their pregnancies with us.

Agree Hugh. However to look at it realistically to in a way if the effects are milder its a normal range if that makes sense. Like seeing a woman with masculine features is not odd. I think the tricky part really is we all start out female period its just the what happens after and to what degrees is the tricky part. From my perspective I think prepuberty I was pretty skinny and most likely more feminine in shape then I bulked up a lot which for me I was thankful for at the time (was bullied). As I have grown older though and looking back things are finally clearing up or so I think little foggier for me I guess I have milder case.

In short what I am saying is I just happen to be more in tune with who I am and feel that I am transforming.  CIS are less aware for whatever reason that is.

Perhaps it is something that was latent and now its more pronounced now (40's dmab btw). Either way I am thinking the brain was indeed effected so long ago just more I finally have realized who I am. Don't think it makes me any less anything but do feel though it is indeed a natural thing to have a certain degree of m/f no matter what we are not ever 100% either but are 100% both its just what balance it is and to try and polarize it to how we feel.

Just happen to post close to when you did and really fairly similar at that age but I know at least one thing I was not subjected to DES. However still possible that I wasn't given enough T in prenatal development and as for my T levels now well they are lower at 290 t 80 e which is still considered normal range by some. The one thing that has probably effected me over the years is I happen to have an infection in a testicle that pretty much killed one and perhaps that is the cause. Perhaps I have fought this lack of T (20 years) for long enough and I have finally given up the fight yet I had thoughts before the infections so eh maybe fate does funny things lol. However it works to be honest does it truly matter  the way I see it transgeder are basically more self aware and something tells them they need a boost to change for whatever reason that is. Does it make them any less of a person really no more of one. If I could think of one all encompassing thing that is all to common are we for the most part empathetic? Could be wrong on that but...