Quote from: DoYouRealize on March 24, 2015, 04:58:11 PM
My use of the word "female" has no unsaid implications at all - it means female, at birth

So you're implying trans men should be included here then? Why the hell does it matter what label is forced on us at birth? There is zero part of me that is female and I want nothing to do with any of this stuff. An unwanted label means nothing to me. I dont understand your argument at all. Trans women are women. End of story. Why does forced label at birth change that or even socialisation? They are still women. I might have had a label forced on me that would include me in stuff like this but it means nothing, I am still male. It just seems offensive to me to try and exclude women from female things and try include men in them all based on something that was forced on us. Thats exactly what TERFs do

Quote from: DoYouRealize on March 24, 2015, 04:58:11 PM
That's not an implication, that is simply what is. It's a biological term and that's why i used it

Something that is also continually misused is the whole 'biologically male/female' nonsense. What does that even mean anymore? More genital fixations? There are women born without vaginas, wombs, women with XY chromosomes, men born without penises, testicles, XX chromosomes.. I just dont get why people keep using the 'biological' term that has practically no basis to it. All they really seem to mean is what label was forced on you at birth. Or its just buying into cisnormative assumptions again that women have vaginas + XX chromosomes and thats what 'biologically' means. Which excludes so many people not even just trans people here


Trans people should not be excluded from anything. Sorry its nothing but discrimination to do so. Its treating us differently, othering us. Whatever 'upbringing' we had doesnt change the fact we are men and women same as they are. Im tired of people trying to give them excuses on why its ok to do this. It isnt. Yes women can have safe spaces and should have them. Excluding trans women from this (who are WOMEN) is not ok because they are kinda included in the 'female' or 'women' title. Its still what they are. To deny them involvement in anything is basically saying well you're not 'really' a woman so you dont belong here. Trans people are more oppressed than them as cis people are but they see it ok to exclude them from everything. I wouldnt tolerate it. If we sit in silence and let them walk all over us nothing will ever change. Fighting against things like this is the only way we will ever be seen as equal to them and not othered like this

Yes. Michfest is a private festival (open to the public).

Just as southern lunch counters that excluded black people were privately owned, but open to the public.

Should it have been OK for white folks to exclude black folks from their lunch counters because their experience was different? Should white folks have been allowed to claim lunch counters as a "safe space" from (black) people that made them uncomfortable?

I'm sorry, but I don't see two sides to this issue. Exclusion is exclusion, no matter how you try to justify it. If there are places that all other women are allowed and trans women aren't, we are second class citizens.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 24, 2015, 05:17:25 PM
But I did not get the impression that the OP's purpose was to start a discussion about when/where trans* people should be included.  I thought the point was to offer help in the OP's reaction and feelings about what was said.

Perhaps I am mistaken.

Thanks for looking out for me. That means a lot. I initially wanted some thoughts on how to deal with the person I had spoken to from people who understood why this meant so much to me. But I do find opposing viewpoints interesting.

I tried to stay on topic in my initial response by saying simply: She probably doesn't hate you at all.

You may never understand each others' point of view about this particular event... but there are so many more points where you could connect with one another. It would be a shame to label her a "face of hate" just because she disagrees with you about Michfest.


@Jigsaw,
Intersex persons whose genitals are "read" as female, who are raised with girlhoods and an expectation of a future womanhood have had a female-born experience as well. I was going to mention this population, but thought it might seem a little too far off topic ... AND as I am not intersex myself, I hesitate to invoke their experiences in a discussion.

Trans men? I don't believe that very many trans men would want to go to Michfest - so I don't see much purpose in figuring out whether they are included or not, except as a hypothetical exercise, and this topic wasn't about hypotheticals.

The topic is about whether someone who supported Michfest's female-space intention is necessarily a transphobic or hateful person. And my answer is, no, she isn't necessarily a hateful person and it is possible that someone who supports this policy can also be a friend to trans people as well.

I am so sick and tired of this women festival thing that comes up year after year. Seriously what difference will it make in your or my entire life experience if either of us went there or didn't go there?? None. If they don't want you or I there, there are tons of places that will not only welcome your money but your friendship. Seriously forget all this TG community nonsense. The reality is much simpler. The real world does not have problems with TG people. If you are a good person then others will know it and be welcoming. In fact it's been my experience that people will bend over backwards to help.

Some of those radical feminists clearly hail from the tinfoil hat brigade. If they as a group want to say you are welcome if you were born with a vagina and bleed every month then so be it. If they want to hang out in the woods and beat drums, not shower and have hairy legs while they worship their menstrual cycles, then fine. None of us can bring any value to an event like that. If the TG community doesn't like the women festival then they should set up their own and make it better and show them up.

I think they make some weird assumptions, is what I think - some trans girls have been raised as girls since toddlerhood, and some trans women do not have penises (not to mention that some trans men do, and they are welcome). Yet neither class of woman is permitted, even though they fit all the requirements, even sometimes having been socialized female as children.

So I can't help but suspect that the "woman born woman" spaces are grasping for excuses rather than truly believing there is some universal female experience from which trans women are automatically and forever excluded (and trans men included). If they really mean "No Penises Allowed," then at least have the guts to SAY that (and ban trans men and packing lesbians).

Quote from: Jenna Marie on March 24, 2015, 09:02:02 PM
some trans girls have been raised as girls since toddlerhood

Interesting isn't it? I imagine that this phenomenon, which is fairly recent, may well be one of the pieces that leads to a change in policy eventually.


Trans women already attend Michfest, of course they are asked to respect the intention that the festival is centered around the experiences of women who are female born and raised.  I don't think it's a good idea to try to force Michfest to change... But in time, I definitely see inclusion happening naturally as "female born" and "female raised" become less and less the same experience.

Still... growing up with a vulva (or with genitals which are typed as a vulva in the case of some intersex persons) and all of the expectations of girlhood which go along with it is a unique experience in patriarchal oppression... thus there must be some spaces where females can talk about this oppression... without someone piping up and talking about male genitals and male experiences, whether current or long past.

I am sure that a "female born/raised only" camping area or series of workshops would remain, even if the festival itself became trans-inclusive.