Im tired of seeing all the 'gender is a social construct' plastered everywhere. They dont even seem to understand what gender even is. They think gender is clothing, expression and/or roles. It is biological, nothing what so ever to do with society

What are some good studies/evidence I can link to as backup? I know about David Reimer's case which I use, I've heard a few other things like a cis woman wearing a prosthetic penis and would break down over it, even when she knew it would be removed. Any other things I can link to? I always try to educate, fight ignorance and bigotry whenever I can. Im tired of misinformation being spread as truth which can be as bad from trans people as cis people

I've found this webpage http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html which is sorta helpful. You could also look up cases of intersex people who had genital surgery by doctors who didn't know better.

For centuries people said they were religious, some would have more religion than others to where they would change their normal clothing and practice abstinence.  Through the years there have been and always will be a few to tarnish their rep, but in general, they are a rather peacful group.  Not trying to start an argument, just posting facts as an analogy.  In the beginning of their history, they were feared and persecuted.  Some murdered just out of plain ignorance. 
Here's the thing, where's the solid proof they have a right to practice and exist.  Yet based on their soul feeling and belief, they exist.. 
There is scientific fact such as the site elis pointed out to that our condition could be medical.  But what is wrong with us just choosing our gender to make our soul complete?  I do see only these religious people who I fought so they could enjoy their religion, only to question my gender that I chose to heal my soul.  I say if you need an issue to stop these people from questioning your gender, say you have a right to your gender as they do to their religion.
Please don't hate me for saying it or talk bad about religion.  We all have our freedom, except when it comes to hate and telling others what to believe.  We just have to show we have our rights and are a good impact on society.  As I see it, I can predict there is not a hater, murderer, or a wife beater signed up on this site.  Everyone here would help anybody if given the chance and is a good example of what society needs.  Sure, we all have/had issues, but at least we are working on them not hurting others.  That's what separates humans from monsters..  I'm my eyes, you are all angels;)

I write things the wrong way sometimes,  so if anyone is offended by this, Im sorry, please report it and it will be taken down:)

Quote from: Garry on March 29, 2015, 07:14:18 PM
Im tired of seeing all the 'gender is a social construct' plastered everywhere. They dont even seem to understand what gender even is. They think gender is clothing, expression and/or roles. It is biological, nothing what so ever to do with society

What are some good studies/evidence I can link to as backup? I know about David Reimer's case which I use, I've heard a few other things like a cis woman wearing a prosthetic penis and would break down over it, even when she knew it would be removed. Any other things I can link to? I always try to educate, fight ignorance and bigotry whenever I can. Im tired of misinformation being spread as truth which can be as bad from trans people as cis people

As a cis-genderless person, I'd have to say a lot of those people identifies as what medical tests determines them to be because it is convenient and doesn't rely on the assumption that what we are is how we feel or think which has problems in themselves. Also, more cis-people are finding that there isn't any inherent psychological differences between the two genders. Those two reasons are why so many cis-individuals concluded that gender is simply a social construct. Also, it's not necessarily true that one who follows that conclusion does not know about gender as there are some who tried so hard to understand those who are trans and gets a idea of what gender is.

Regarding evidence, there are good amount of evidence suggesting the existence of gender on the brain, but there are also evidence that people are more or less similar even on the brain.  If you research, you'd find there are no census on whether females and males behave differently. Another thing is that brain structure differences do not translate to functional differences. So, good luck on your studies.

Just from comprehension of what I have read and understand this Is just my opinion and not to tick anyone off either.

Since every human roams this existence experiences many things of course to some degree that does have influence but it really comes down to before they had any of these experiences they are who they are.  What I mean is we start from something a spirit if you will or soul which my belief yes does have gender among many other traits. Gender is really a tendency to be on a spectrum of male to female to in between there somewhere or lack of being on there somewhere. Which comes down to every persons soul is unique as are their experiences which all adds up to so many variables on top of the core person that no person other then the individual can totally realize who they are. However as humans being a social creature we try to fit into groups but with all the differences some times things don't mix well. It is also comparable to religious belief or any belief really since it is something that is not really explainable it just is.

The infinite facets of a human being fitting with another the same is impossible due to some many variables but some variables seem to have tendancies. Its like how we can catagorise biology by types yet take a look at mammals for example sure we all have mammalry glands but a whale does not make a human. So in humans sure we have some similarities while at the same time also have differences yet we try to fit into groups with those similarities.

Sorry if this seems a bit out of the ball park just trying to explain that there is something to gender among many other things that are so complicated we will probably never understand it all nor should we since we will change and evolve that's what humans are good at too. Yet there are tendancies that do make us fit into groups I mean really humans are very closely related to chimpanzes but sure we are not the same. Yet I would hazard a guess that a female chimp might react like a female human in ways as would male human to male chimp.

In short I guess basically saying maybe humans are like apples some are macintosh some are Spartan and some just might be a mix of both or some other type. Still all apples but there might be a tendancy to be one or the other or neither.

My appoligies if this doesn't make anysense to the topic at hand.

My feeling has been that when people say gender is a social construct, they are really meaning to say that gender roles and gender expression are social constructs. Not gender itself. And IMO, that statement would be true.

I'd ask them to expand on what they're calling gender before you delve into the nitty gritty with them. I've honestly never had a negative interaction or experienced any kind of transphobia from someone who is educated and aware enough to know what a social construction is.

Quote from: ftmax on March 30, 2015, 05:56:57 AM
My feeling has been that when people say gender is a social construct, they are really meaning to say that gender roles and gender expression are social constructs. Not gender itself. And IMO, that statement would be true.

Well, there is also the part about the definition of gender being a social construct. What exactly is gender? You'd get so many different answers just from asking that question alone.

Quote from: Reptillian on March 30, 2015, 10:56:53 AM
Well, there is also the part about the definition of gender being a social construct. What exactly is gender? You'd get so many different answers just from asking that question alone.

I too have posted that question here before and asked about how people differentiate gender from gender roles.  Being able to articulate something so deeply intrinsic to identify without recourse to a shared experience is virtually impossible and so we are once again left with more questions??

Food for thought without calories

Gender and sex get very conflated these days.  Gender, meaning basically "boys are like this, girls are like that" actually is a social construct.  Some of it may be based on natural tendencies of the sexes, maybe, but mostly it's about keeping women in their place and always has been.  There is no actual need for men and women to have different roles anymore, if there ever was.  There is no such thing as all women are like anything, the overlap between men and women is very large.  There is no biological imperative for women to do all the dishes while the men gather in the living room and chit chat, for instance!

Quote from: Reptillian on March 30, 2015, 10:56:53 AM
Well, there is also the part about the definition of gender being a social construct. What exactly is gender? You'd get so many different answers just from asking that question alone.

Gender is the state of being male, female, neither, both, or something else. It's a personal trait, not a social construction.

How those identities are typically expressed and utilized in the social sphere is the social construction. The gender binary is a social construction.

Gender itself as a social construct is essentially saying that you're born as a blank slate and gender is a social imposition that you gain over time. I think that rings false for anyone that feels they were born this way.

Think about common examples of social construction: money, hierarchy, God, citizenship, etc. They exist because people agree that they exist. That is what makes them a social construction. If you were the last person on earth, would you still identify as male or female or what-have-you? With no social mores, gender stereotypes, standards of masculinity/femininity - speaking only for myself, I'm still male.

To the OP, sorry I don't have anything to add in terms of links to studies etc.

But on the ongoing discussion, here's my take. Gender roles and expression are definitely social constructs, and it's true that they are probably becoming less relevant over time. But beyond all this and the physical characteristics of the sexes, there is definitely an internal sense of gender. Trans people might find it easier to relate to precisely because the mismatch between their internal gender and their outer characteristics helps them realize what gender really means. For most cis people, it may be easier to conflate the two and not realize the hard-wiring in the brain.
And yet, David Reimer's life story as a cis male who happened to go through a lot of hell regarding his gender shows that this internal sense of gender, or gender identity, is hard-wired in almost everyone. It may be hard-wired to be at either end of the binary, or to be fluid or non-binary or whatever, but I think it's always there.

All I meant was most people consider gender to be what each does and what they look like. That is gender roles and gender expression. Not gender itself. A lot of people have no concept of what gender even is as they consider it to be about what I just said. What we do and how we look doesnt change who we are, they dont seem to understand that concept at all. Roles and expression are social constructs yes. They vary by culture, religion etc. There is no set way to be male or female. The stereotypes of each are social constructs that we have to be and look a certain way. I understand cis people not understanding being trans completely, I just wish they would stop trying to argue with us and force their opinions as to why we're 'wrong'. I have seen trans people say the same things though which makes no sense to me

I try and get through to people like this by educating them, why Im asking for studies to link to as it backs up what gender is, not what they think it is. David Reimer seems to be the best example. It shows that however we are raised, however we dress and act, we still know who we are. He was raised female and knew he was male. THAT is what gender is. Thats why it isnt a social construct, its just our sense of self. It is biological in that it comes from the brain, not influence from society. If it was a social construct then how many people would even be trans if we could just 'choose' not to be? Too many people seem to lack understanding of this. I like using studies as education as science is true whether or not you believe in it. You cant really dispute evidence. Was just wondering if there are other things like David that would be good to use for education purposes, the million times I try to explain all this to people

I know about brain differences (though that is more being disputed now), intersex people, cis people not fitting set narratives of chromosomes and genitals, all of which I use. I just try to educate a bit about what gender actually is and things to link to as evidence is helpful to highlight it is our sense of self that tells us our gender regardless of external factors

Quote from: ftmax on March 30, 2015, 12:20:13 PM
If you were the last person on earth, would you still identify as male or female or what-have-you? With no social mores, gender stereotypes, standards of masculinity/femininity - speaking only for myself, I'm still male.

Exactly how I feel too. If it was a social construct then we wouldnt care would we. To me it doesnt matter if I was completely alone, I would still be male and need to stay on T and undergo the surgery I need as I would have the same problems I have now regardless of if it was just me around or not

You might look up a brochure for the british NHS called "doh-transgender-experiences.pdf" . Only thing I would disagree with is page 7, where they state stress, instead many experience relief.
It states that being trans has some biological connections, which is imo socially better acceptable, and it might help with self acceptance.
There are further references within the brochure.


hugs

There are current theories that make sense. In the womb the genitals are created before hormone introduction. During this hormone introduction process is when gender identity is formed, and for some reason a trans person's gender identity was not formed to match their genitalia. This gender identity plays an important part through a person's life, as is shown by the constant distress we go through. This would show that gender is a biological process.

The gender stereotypes are a social construct, such as the roles of men and women in society. I feel like these stereotypes are starting to fade away as more women take on the generally "male" role and more men take on the generally "female" role. If you watch the younger generations, such as people in their 20's, girls don't necessarily act as "girly" as they did 20 years ago. Boys don't always act as "manly" as they did 20 years ago. This social construct is slowly fading away as time goes on.

This link has some good information from Anne Vitale, PhD

http://www.avitale.com/Essaylist.htm

Quote from: Garry on March 30, 2015, 12:27:04 PM

I try and get through to people like this by educating them, why Im asking for studies to link to as it backs up what gender is, not what they think it is. David Reimer seems to be the best example. It shows that however we are raised, however we dress and act, we still know who we are. He was raised female and knew he was male. THAT is what gender is. Thats why it isnt a social construct, its just our sense of self. It is biological in that it comes from the brain, not influence from society. If it was a social construct then how many people would even be trans if we could just 'choose' not to be? Too many people seem to lack understanding of this. I like using studies as education as science is true whether or not you believe in it. You cant really dispute evidence. Was just wondering if there are other things like David that would be good to use for education purposes, the million times I try to explain all this to people

There's partly your problem. You are literally speaking to some people who have absolutely no sense of themselves in that way, but only identifies with what medical findings determines them to be just because it is convenient. They're not going to get the concept of sensing a gender. I am also one of those people who prefers to identify by what medical findings points me to, and I have zero sense of gender in any way, and a sense of gender is a bizarre concept to me. Gender identity is not something I have as if gender doesn't exist in my mind though I do have a identity of what I am.

Quote from: ftmax on March 30, 2015, 12:20:13 PM
Gender is the state of being male, female, neither, both, or something else. It's a personal trait, not a social construction.

Which doesn't answer what gender is since you get the question what does it means for one to be a male/female... and when is one person is being a male/female.... So, the definition of gender still ends up being a social construct as there are literally no way to define being male/female without some set of problems or disregarding certain applications of philosophy.

Quote from: Reptillian on March 30, 2015, 12:43:37 PM
There's partly your problem. You are literally speaking to some people who have absolutely no sense of themselves in that way, but only identifies with what medical findings determines them to be just because it is convenient. They're not going to get the concept of sensing a gender. I am also one of those people who prefers to identify by what medical findings points me to, and I have zero sense of gender in any way, and a sense of gender is a bizarre concept to me. Gender identity is not something I have as if gender doesn't exist in my mind though I do have a identity of what I am.

You dont have to 'get' something to stop attacking people and spreading misinformation because you dont understand it. Thats the point Im making. Just to stop spreading misinformation. I dont understand non-binaries, agender or anything else but do I tell them they're wrong and state wrong information to try back that up? No I dont. I respect who they are even if I personally dont 'get' it because I dont have personal concept of it. Not having a gender can be a gender in itself (agender)? I dont understand that and you dont understand this, doesnt mean either of us are wrong. It doesnt mean you 'chose' to be that way, its just who you are right? Thats still my point. Gender is still a spectrum, not one or the other. This social construct thing still doesnt apply as being who we are isnt something made up

Its not my problem they dont understand. Its theirs when they hold onto their ignorance to try and tell us we are wrong because of it. Its us who suffer for it. I dont stand for misinformation. The only way we progress is by doing something about it and thats what I do

Quote from: Reptillian on March 30, 2015, 12:43:37 PM
Which doesn't answer what gender is since you get the question what does it means for one to be a male/female... and when is one person is being a male/female.... So, the definition of gender still ends up being a social construct as there are literally no way to define being male/female without some set of problems or disregarding certain applications of philosophy.

Disagree.

We use these gender constructs sometimes to communicate to the world who we are.  How we dress and do our hair, how we act in social settings–maybe it's partly what feels most comfortable sometimes, but a lot of times it's communication of how we want to be seen and treated, or sometimes just not wanting to rock boats or make anybody feel uncomfortable.  But, to me, the core issue that makes me trans is the sex I feel I am is not the one I was assigned at birth, and the gender stuff, I don't know, I use these constructs for my own purposes and reject them when they go against my objectives with how I want to present myself and/or be perceived, or just.. You know.. be.

When gender is put upon you in such a way that it causes the world to perceive you to be something you are not, and because your sex is so elemental to your sense of self, you become disconnected and isolated from reality and it becomes untenably painful.  I think this is why people can be raised one as one sex but have a strong sense that they should be the other.  If this is you, then you want to take these gendered things and use them to communicate who the real person is underneath, maybe overcompensating at first, but then eventually you find what fits and feels right, hopefully.  But I feel more like it is your sex that is inborn, and gender (mostly) is seperate and a social construct.

But ofc I see gender the way I see it, being somebody that identifies fairly strongly as female and enjoys a lot of feminine things, plus a few masculine maybe..  But my perpective I know is different from people that don't understand gender at all ,because I have several friends like that and they don't get how I see things, but it's ok, we still get along just fine

Quote from: Garry on March 30, 2015, 12:57:35 PMNot having a gender can be a gender in itself (agender)?

Is the absence of something falls under the subset of a category? Is atheism still a form of theism even though it is the absence of theism. Is asexuality is a sexuality itself? That depends on your model, and what you define different set of genders as. And personally, for trans-spaces, my identity is cis-genderless as I do not have a gender identity and lack the capability to understand what it means to know a internal sense of gender, but I still identify as cis as it is what my body says to me. That being said as none of this is important...

Quote from: Garry on March 30, 2015, 12:57:35 PMIts not my problem they dont understand. Its theirs when they hold onto their ignorance to try and tell us we are wrong because of it. Its us who suffer for it. I dont stand for misinformation. The only way we progress is by doing something about it and thats what I do

You could try, but sometimes you have to pick a battle and skip a battle as it is not always worth trying to argue with some random person in the internet. Some people are just not suited to understand gender itself. I'm going to add that gender is not a subject many people can easily grasp at first and especially those who simply identify as what their "natural" body says.

While I do not have a link to a study just common knowledge there is one thing that does have an influence on what gender really is. My thoughts anyway I when two people interact many factors come into play. How they look, how they act and how they communicate.

Knowing this males will tend to be aggressive while females tend to be passive as one example.

Another one that makes me think is why do females bond to each other different then male and female and yet different male and male discounting any gay feelings into this. My answer would be yes some is social influence due to constructs which are really a tendancy how a certain group acts but when I comes down to when you finally know each other closely as say friends less of that social construct matters yet the bond is different among the m-f, m-m, or f-f bonds. Why are they really different is due to gender and common feelings and tendancies among each gender. So yes it is complicated by the variable of social constructs yet those same constructs or tendancies bring us to fit into one or the other or in some cases of course a mix or neither.

Just postulating that someone who identifies as genderless or agender may interact in more of I don't care what the other persons gender is whereas a CIS will treat someone as they see them and how they act. They will treat the other person as male or female because to them gender is black and white yet for a transgender it seems we find the grey aspects and of course most have the wish to be polarized into the black or white to be treated as how they feel. Because of the many variables seem to add that you are whatever gender you feel you are just the presenting yourself in whatever form might not be what you look like at the moment.

When it comes right down to it no one can read your mind right that's when we rely on communication via how we act, dress, speak and even to a degree write. So to match what you wish peoples perception of you to be as you have to communicated with your body in some way. It is rather hard to do if you indentify as say female yet your body screams male so you get a conflict hence GID.