Quote from: Keira on November 04, 2007, 10:10:08 AM

What do you mean upper forehead?
Advance the hairline or brow bossing shave?
I suppose brow bossing shave would be lower forehead.

Advance the forehead? I would have though a smalller forehead would be better than making it bigger?

I saw a FFS two months ago and he wanted to shave or flatten down my cheekbones, why? I thought it was a good feature....do that and my nose and chin will look big...

QuoteI saw a FFS two months ago and he wanted to shave or flatten down my cheekbones, why? I thought it was a good feature....do that and my nose and chin will look big...

i think that i'd value your opinion more than i'd value his kim.. He might be a specialist surgeon but he's not studied the difference between men and women like you have during your life.

if you are questioning his judgement even at this early stage i'd stay well away from him.

did you say that to him, about your nose and chin becoming disproportionate if he operated on your cheeks? what did he say??

although, obviously he's seen you in real life and us only in pictures.

the only thing i've learnt from being on these forums and in my life, is that i rarely trust pictures. Even if the taker is honest, they are at the best of times, only a tiny glimpse of what a person really is like in person.

if most people are treating you as a woman, in person, then you must look mostly, like a woman?

i dont know its all very confusing?

I wouldn't know but I saw a FFS surgeon today. He seems to think it's the upper forehead and brow with me and eveything else is ok..

Quote from: Keira on September 25, 2007, 10:21:16 PM

The problem I often see is over operation, especially the jawline, I don't know why people want their jawline completely hacked away.

Probably because the overwhelming majority of trans women have masculine jawlines and it is a major gender marker. I was in denial about my jawline and initially had the upper part of my face done. I went back and had the jaw done and it made all the difference in the world though no one could figure out what I had done.

Is there actually an order in which you have various parts of FFS? I thought the idea would be to do it all in one go?

Melissa, I actually read a lot on gender markers and its not the jawline that's the marker its chin height.

The proof, look at Paris Hilton, Gwyneth's paltrow, Rebecca Romijn o and tell me they are not large and low. But they are all seen as very beautiful. There are hundreds of models and stars with horizontally wide jaws, actually having a significant jawline is more prominent in models and actresses than having an average recessed jawline.

Its how massive the lower face is that's the problem in the case of the jaw. If you've got a small chin in height, even with a jaw that's horizontally large, you're jaw and lower face won't look massive.

Quote from: Berliegh on November 13, 2007, 10:44:43 AM
Is there actually an order in which you have various parts of FFS? I thought the idea would be to do it all in one go?

you can, but not everyone can afford to do everything they want to do at one time, and might have to prioritize

Keira, could I ask you a question without offending you.

Do you think your jawline looks feminine?




Posted on: November 13, 2007, 06:31:26 PM

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Quote from: Kat on November 13, 2007, 11:03:57 AM

Quote from: Berliegh on November 13, 2007, 10:44:43 AM
Is there actually an order in which you have various parts of FFS? I thought the idea would be to do it all in one go?

you can, but not everyone can afford to do everything they want to do at one time, and might have to prioritize

One has to objectively assess one's needs which is hard to do as there is so much denial involved in the process. If I had listened to my friends or the absurd contentions of the anti-FFS crowd here, I wouldn't be enjoying the astounding life that I have now.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 13, 2007, 05:36:50 PM
One has to objectively assess one's needs which is hard to do as there is so much denial involved in the process...

Denial of....?

~Kate~

just out of curiosity, for those who travelled to get FFS, were there any problems getting through the airport security checks, ie. passport photos?

Quote from: sarah.s on November 14, 2007, 06:50:33 AM
just out of curiosity, for those who travelled to get FFS, were there any problems getting through the airport security checks, ie. passport photos?

I don't know how things are post-9/11.  But I was at least a year on HRT when I traveled on my passport without any problems.  I knew of other people who used their male passports though living full time as female (they still had their legal male name, not sure why, but it worked for them I guess).

If nothing else, people gain weight, they lose weight, they lose hair, etc.  They don't always look just like their passport photo.  Though the one way I heard for sure to get scutinized is to either be wearing the same clothes as your passport photo or even have just gotten your passport right before traveling.

Quote from: sarah.s on November 14, 2007, 06:50:33 AM
just out of curiosity, for those who travelled to get FFS, were there any problems getting through the airport security checks, ie. passport photos?

There is a testimonial somewhere about a German woman who had FFS with Dr O who had some problems convincing German authorities she was a male, legally. Dr O (and others) I assume, provides his pateints with a certified letter stating that your appearance may have changed drastically.

Posted on: November 14, 2007, 02:33:32 PM

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Quote from: Kate on November 13, 2007, 06:41:01 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 13, 2007, 05:36:50 PM
One has to objectively assess one's needs which is hard to do as there is so much denial involved in the process...

Denial of....?

~Kate~

You really have to ask that?

Denial that one is not getting read as male. As a  recovering alcoholic/addict, I am quite familiar with how strong one's denial can be.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 14, 2007, 01:36:54 PM
You really have to ask that?

Denial that one is not getting read as male. As a  recovering alcoholic/addict, I am quite familiar with how strong one's denial can be.

I don't disagree, but I think its open to intrepretation, getting read as male I think is largely situational.  That and except for the obvious "man in a dress", most people in most places are willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

Yes for some FFS is a life saver, and we could probably all benefit on some level from it (but so too could non-TS females) but I think for most its over dramatized as absolutely necessary when all its really doing is fattening someone elses bank account.

Since most of my friends are GG's under 25 and because of the discussions we have, I'm SURE I'm not read by them.

but, since I've got minor FFS (rhino + brow bossing shave), I'm not the best argument against.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 14, 2007, 01:36:54 PM
Denial that one is not getting read as male. As a  recovering alcoholic/addict, I am quite familiar with how strong one's denial can be.

I also think many people are in denial about whether their issues lie on the outside... or inside... and often end up chasing a ghost via endless surgeries and searches for external validation.

Where does it end? What if someone has FFS and passes just fine with 1,000 people, and then... BAM. Someone reads her. Is she "in denial" if she doesn't head back for more surgery?

At SOME point, in order to find some sort of peace with ourselves, I think we need to find a healthy and realistic balance between our need for external validation and our own internal sense of self. I do realize that the two make a whole, and I can't exist in a vaccuum.

But just as I'd be in denial if I thought I could live an ordinary woman's life even though everyone was calling me sir, I'd also be in denial of my inner insecurities if my entire sense of self-worth rested on passing 100%.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on November 14, 2007, 06:46:58 PM

At SOME point, in order to find some sort of peace with ourselves, I think we need to find a healthy and realistic balance between our need for external validation and our own internal sense of self. I do realize that the two make a whole, and I can't exist in a vaccuum.

But just as I'd be in denial if I thought I could live an ordinary woman's life even though everyone was calling me sir, I'd also be in denial of my inner insecurities if my entire sense of self-worth rested on passing 100%.

Exactly.  And that balance must be made by the individual.  I think that's one of the primary reasons for RLE, before having any surgeries.  Couldn't have said it better myself, Kate.  Thanks.

Carol

Those who talk constantly about how well they "pass" are the ones in the deepest denial, some bordering on delusional.

When you are post-op and start dating and becoming intimate with multiple partners, (without disclosing) then you will know how well you pass.

Yeah, sure... Melissa.
Is that directed at anybody in particular, or to
all those your TS super-radar has detected...

I wish you'd focus on yourself instead
of psychanalizing others constantly.

I'll reiterate the question, Denial?
Is everybody who hasn't done FFS in denial?
That's some broad stroke your painting there.

For someone's who above the fray and into
budhism, you sure do not come off like that most times.

Oh now we are attacking the spiritual beliefs of members? What did I say to warrant that?

The truth is the truth.

On the contrary, Melissa, she holds Buddhism in high regard and wonders when will you live up to the ideals you espouse. Nonattachment and compassion for all beings, for example. Then there's anatta (nonexistence of the self).