Quote from: Beth Andrea on April 26, 2015, 09:58:02 PM

I also liked how Bruce shared what he was thinking

...one can catch quick glimpses of a great internal sadness. As we know, there is severe emotional turmoil (angst?) in wrestling with "should I transition? Am I a man? Am I a woman? What about my wife, family, job/income source, reputation, etc?" So much to think about and agonize over! It is literally to the core of a person's Being...and this, cis-people simply do not understand. But seeing a real person, a "hero" too, talk about these things with tears flowing...I appreciated it...

Fully agree with the above observations, it is hard, its exactly where I am, and have been before... I personally never went on HRT prior to when I did... stopping would have been very hard... The last 10 for me on HRT, absolutely determined to change are still hampered by my torment on how I break the news to all my close family (Wife, Kids, Grandkids etc...)

That and my desire to fully be me is what still brings me to tears some nights!

I think Ms Jenner was genuine, definitely brave actually bringing it all onto TV...

As I may have mentioned before definitely going to polarise people tho...

L Katy 

I finally just watched it.   The things that truly stood out to me were the acknowledgement of statistics for transwomen of color and the fact that Ms. Jenner may have the ears of conservative lawmakers in this country.  If we can flip them, the battle for our civil rights is won.

I have google now installed on my tablet and in addition to the weather and info on my two favorite baseball teams and updates to websites I go to frequently it shows news related to topics I've read recently. It presented me with an article about Kris Jenner and their marriage from a sleezy gossip rag. I ignored it as long as possible but, like a train wreck you just can't look. I have no idea, and little interest, in the truth of the story but the take away is that even some sleezy gossip rags are taking Bruce's side. Imagine that!

Quote from: Jill F on April 27, 2015, 01:24:10 AM
I finally just watched it.   The things that truly stood out to me were the acknowledgement of statistics for transwomen of color and the fact that Ms. Jenner may have the ears of conservative lawmakers in this country.  If we can flip them, the battle for our civil rights is won.

Honestly, even if the Republican leadership personally agreed with our cause behind close doors, they would never publicly support us. Going so far against "Christian values" would get nearly all of them ousted by Michelle Bachmann and Todd Akin types in the next election.

Quote from: Jill F on April 27, 2015, 01:24:10 AM
I finally just watched it.   The things that truly stood out to me were the acknowledgement of statistics for transwomen of color and the fact that Ms. Jenner may have the ears of conservative lawmakers in this country.  If we can flip them, the battle for our civil rights is won.

I will go one step further and say that there should not really be" flipping" going on but a return to the principles of the founders, particularly the Declaration of Independence.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

A lot of "conservatives" have lost their way and have strayed so far from this. Returning to this will solve a lot of issues including ours.

Quote from: Daisy Jane on April 27, 2015, 07:29:15 AM
Honestly, even if the Republican leadership personally agreed with our cause behind close doors, they would never publicly support us. Going so far against "Christian values" would get nearly all of them ousted by Michelle Bachmann and Todd Akin types in the next election.

I doubt it, the GOP is badly trying to shed her. Only the fringe nuts are hanging on to people like her.

Quote from: iKateI will go one step further and say that there should not really be" flipping" going on but a return to the principles of the founders, particularly the Declaration of Independence.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

A lot of "conservatives" have lost their way and have strayed so far from this. Returning to this will solve a lot of issues including ours.

Actually, a return to the "principles of the founders" wouldn't be such a great thing. When they wrote "all men are created equal," they meant men, and white men at that. Women... not created equal... people of color... not created equal (at that point, whether black Africans were even fully human was open to debate).

When many conservative types talk about "returning to the principles of the founders," that, in their hearts, is what they actually want to return to: a system in which white guys run things, because they're inherently better than everyone else. It's taken the hell of a long time to make inroads in those beliefs and for people who aren't white men to begin to have their rights respected; let's, for goodness' sake, not encourage that kind of conservatism.

That's exactly why I try to point that out to them. People don't realize the problem with that idea and what they are actually wanting.
Mariah

Quote from: Tysilio on April 27, 2015, 10:19:10 AM
Actually, a return to the "principles of the founders" wouldn't be such a great thing. When they wrote "all men are created equal," they meant men, and white men at that. Women... not created equal... people of color... not created equal (at that point, whether black Africans were even fully human was open to debate).

When many conservative types talk about "returning to the principles of the founders," that, in their hearts, is what they actually want to return to: a system in which white guys run things, because they're inherently better than everyone else. It's taken the hell of a long time to make inroads in those beliefs and for people who aren't white men to begin to have their rights respected; let's, for goodness' sake, not encourage that kind of conservatism.

I don't do that as much as I did, but when I first came out there was my Allen half and my Ashley half. (Its more like Ashley 70% Allen 30%), but I don't try to separate my gender sides anymore.

I do think it would have been beneficial if he asked for female pronouns instead of male pronouns. Its confusing to even me.

Quote from: marsh monster on April 24, 2015, 10:46:36 PM
Jenner apparently told her to use he/him for now, that was mentioned in the show. I imagine that this is all very difficult for Jenner being under so much scrutiny in their everyday life and knowing that people are following, even to the point of putting a tracker on the vehicle Jenner drives. Jenner is also not allowing themselves to be photographed dressed as a woman as Jenner needs to come fully out in their own way and time that makes them comfortable and we should respect that.

And really, its like Jenner is kind of separating Bruce from "her" like they are different people for now. Probably due to the extreme pressure put on by the media. Overall, I though the interview was good and positive and ABC did put some effort towards educating those watching, which is commendable.

Quote from: Tysilio on April 27, 2015, 10:19:10 AM
Actually, a return to the "principles of the founders" wouldn't be such a great thing. When they wrote "all men are created equal," they meant men, and white men at that. Women... not created equal... people of color... not created equal (at that point, whether black Africans were even fully human was open to debate).

When many conservative types talk about "returning to the principles of the founders," that, in their hearts, is what they actually want to return to: a system in which white guys run things, because they're inherently better than everyone else. It's taken the hell of a long time to make inroads in those beliefs and for people who aren't white men to begin to have their rights respected; let's, for goodness' sake, not encourage that kind of conservatism.

There were debates about this, and those arguing that it applied to white men only also argued that it the Declaration was just worded this way to (paraphrased) get away from England. Lincoln famously turned this around, and the end result was the end of slavery.

Personally I like the idea of self determination.

QuoteThere were debates about this, and those arguing that it applied to white men only also argued that it the Declaration was just worded this way to (paraphrased) get away from England. Lincoln famously turned this around, and the end result was the end of slavery.

Not exactly... applying the "all men" principle to everyone required two constitutional amendments: the 14th, which addressed, among other things, the citizenship rights of ex-slaves, and was passed in 1868, well after Lincoln's death; and the 19th, which recognized the citizenship rights of women, and wasn't passed until 1919. The founding fathers were long gone by the time either of these were passed.

Even if the Emancipation Proclamation was the "beginning of the end" of slavery, it still took 87 years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence.  Had the founding fathers actually been in favor of citizenship rights for women and black people (there were free blacks at the time, whose civil rights were also very restricted), they had plenty of time (there were 12 years between the Declaration of Independence and the ratification of the Constitution) to make that the law of the land.

The belief in the inferiority of women and people of color was deeply ingrained among the founding fathers, and it still runs very deep today. This is why the rhetoric of returning to "original principles" and using them as a guide to interpreting the Constitution is, in my opinion, very dangerous.

I like the idea of self-determination too, but it's naive to think that it was something for which there was wide support in the 18th century.

Omg, I just quoted Kanye West to my mom regarding B.J. (nothing to do with ME, of course,, no way ...) whilst also mentioning Kim Kardashian in the same sentence.  I feel uneasy, like my reality is all topsy turvy.

It was so much easier when I could simply write off that media circus / "those" people as being incapable of producing a substantive thought. Let alone an undeniable truth. This?? This is what it's taken for me to break the ice about being transsexual to my family?

Still, I like the foundation it provides. All of our rights may not have been recognized in the founding documents.

Hell, even the bill of rights not part of the constitution originally.

It still beats the heck out of being ruled over by a royal family or dictator and having the Government decide how, when and even why you live your life to every nth degree.

O well,, I (italics)tried to steer it back on topic..

So...what did everyone think of the "negligée" style dress they showed? Wow! He's braver than I would be...

Quote from: femmebutt on April 27, 2015, 01:26:29 PM
Omg, I just quoted Kanye West to my mom regarding B.J. (nothing to do with ME, of course,, no way...) whilst also mentioning Kim Kardashian in the same sentence.  I feel uneasy, like my reality is all topsy turvy.

It was so much easier when I could simply write off that media circus / "those" people as being incapable of producing a substantive thought. Let alone an undeniable truth. This?? This is what it's taken for me to break the ice about being transsexual to my family?

I also cringe at referencing anything that Kanye said, LOL!

On other forums they are talking about the interview. What I have found is that most people are supportive. Those who aren't are largely keeping their comments down.

I think we have a wave coming.

Quote from: iKate on April 27, 2015, 01:47:15 PM

I think we have a wave coming.

I'll go get my surfboard, lol

I spent last night browsing the comments sections of various UK newspapers and I'm happy to report that the vast majority of comments are positive.
The negative comments are primarily from people stating that they don't like anything to do with the Kardashians, there are very few negative comments about people transitioning so for the most part this has been a positive thing for the trans community worldwide

I saw one negative comment from a former 'friend' of mine, but this guy is pretty much a very unpleasant person to be around, in that he's very boorish and very proud of it. He also complains that no women want to date him.

The comment was along the lines that Jenner is not a real woman. First and only one I've seen among people I know.

Quote from: iKate on April 27, 2015, 01:47:15 PM
I also cringe at referencing anything that Kanye said, Lol!

Seriously, Kate! Tho I chalk that up more to my being white and nerdy and never having given any effort to realizing his "genius"
***recalls that hurricane Katrina comment with Mike Myers (a personal fav)

I was only kidding about being off topic, btw! 

You had to say "white and nerdy", Femmebutt! Now I have Weird Al stuck in my head.