So I hear people say things like "a transsexual is trapped in the body of the opposite sex, that is okay with me, but a cross dresser is a creepy hairy straight male wearing womens clothes to get their rocks off". It is mostly genetic women close to the GLTG community who say things like this. Cross dressers I've talked to got offensive and said that they cross dress because it is comfortable and may not have anything to do with getting sexual kicks. (even if it is sexual, I don't see why that is the business of a genetic woman anyway). I think the problem here is that genetic women are creeped out by someone who cross dresses in the privacy of their own homes but will get more respect from them when they have the "balls" (how ironic) to go out in public and be comfortable like that. Further more, many transsexuals I know started out as cross dressers before taking it a step further to make their dream come true of being a real woman. I see cross dressing more as a stage than an identity and to call them creepy men who are just getting off might discourage many transsexuals from coming out do to shame.

I think the reason I am bothered by this marginalization of cross dressers is that I do not know where I fit in the TG community. Do I just like to wear women's clothes or am I really a woman in a mans body? I don't like being a male. I hate it. I don't hate men, I just don't want to be a man or live that lifestyle. I felt that way when I was a child (I hated being called "he", I wanted to wear dresses with my sisters, I would have my cousin put her lipstick on me and...it just felt right) but I don't know if it was because I was raised by a bunch of girls or if it is genetic (transsexuals are mostly much more sure about themselves than I am). When I got a little older, I got over this (was probably conditioned to do so by my family and peers) and I had typical male interests (I loved my heman and starwars figurines and light sabors and all that stuff). Plus my mom made sure I would not forget that I was male by telling me how lazy I was all the time.  I felt shameful for wanted to be a girl when I was younger. My sisters would laugh about it and say "did you know that [Emma] thought [she] was a girl when [she] was little?" But when puberty kicked in, it came back. My sexual fantasies brought me back to wanting to be a female. I simply could not enjoy my sexual fantasies without being a girl. But as I got older, as I got to know myself better, I knew there was more to it than that. I thought about my issue from my childhood. I wanted to be a girl. By the time I was 20, and I thought about my future, it was to be a girl. I didn't want to be GI Joe, I wanted to be Barbie. I wanted to dress pretty, I wanted to freely express my emotions like a girl can. I don't want other women to be scared of me walking down the street just because I have a penis between my legs. Was I genetically destined to be a girl or am I just unhappy with the status of a male, what society expects from men, the sweat and smell of men. I started seeing a therapist about my gender issues and it was been wonderful. I went to see her as Emma all dressed up and everything and it was liberating. Is anyone else here as confused about where they fit as I am? I guess I just need a little reassurance and maybe some advice.

Well, I can reassure you that it is perfectly ok to be confused about all these things.

My advise would be to relax and explore and don't feel guilty. You don't need permission to be you.  It sounds like you have some guilt about your need. But I would try to find acceptance in who you are, because you did not choose to be this way. This is not a choice. You have a right to be you as much as anyone else. You may be confused right now but there are some definite things you do know. You know that you don't want to be a man, and you know you like dressing and acting as a girl.  In time things will become clear. It might be a bolt of lightning at night or a slow realisation over time with many dips in the road. Be aware that we all have doubts from time to time about our path.

I can't tell you what you are, but I do know that cross-dressers are people that still identify as being their birthsex. I don't hear you saying I am a man that likes to wear women's clothes. The really telling thing for me was when you said  "By the time I was 20, and I thought about my future, it was to be a girl. I didn't want to be GI Joe, I wanted to be Barbie."

Seeing a gender therapist is a really great step. This is a really smart move. They will help you figure a lot of things out for yourself.

I recommend posting an introduction in the introductions section, help people get to know you.

Quote from: Emmalene on November 15, 2007, 06:32:52 PM
So I hear people say things like "a transsexual is trapped in the body of the opposite sex, that is okay with me, but a cross dresser is a creepy hairy straight male wearing womens clothes to get their rocks off".

Many trans women, myself included, cringe at that stereotypical remark "woman trapped in a man's body." Talk about marginilization.

Wellcome to Susans Emmalene,

it is just so natural to be confused by all of this. I was and still am to a certain extent. It takes time to look through your emotions and figure out where you need to go - this is a learning process.

Think of School - the 1st year - you really do not know why you are going to school so the teachers try and make it fun. After a few years you get the hang of things and can start to ask to question. Later on in your school life you may specalise in a area of interest so you can get the best infomation you need for your life/interest.

Where ever you are - just sit back and relax - it is a long journey for everyone - everyone has fears about their journey. But you will find a great deal of people looking for the answer to 'what am I'.

Enjoy your stay.

Alice

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 15, 2007, 10:07:35 PM

Quote from: Emmalene on November 15, 2007, 06:32:52 PM
So I hear people say things like "a transsexual is trapped in the body of the opposite sex, that is okay with me, but a cross dresser is a creepy hairy straight male wearing womens clothes to get their rocks off".

Many trans women, myself included, cringe at that stereotypical remark "woman trapped in a man's body." Talk about marginilization.

May I ask which part of it you consider incorrect?

Quote from: ChildOfTheLight on November 17, 2007, 02:12:35 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 15, 2007, 10:07:35 PM

Quote from: Emmalene on November 15, 2007, 06:32:52 PM
So I hear people say things like "a transsexual is trapped in the body of the opposite sex, that is okay with me, but a cross dresser is a creepy hairy straight male wearing womens clothes to get their rocks off".

Many trans women, myself included, cringe at that stereotypical remark "woman trapped in a man's body." Talk about marginilization.

May I ask which part of it you consider incorrect?

I've felt "wrong" my entire life, felt like 30+ years of what should have been my life was alternately denied and/or stolen from me.  But "trapped"?  Never.

That and I cringe when I hear it becuase it's usually the "creepy hairy straight male wearing womens clothes" variety that lives vicariously through support group meetings and talks about being "trapped".

"That and I cringe when I hear it becuase it's usually the "creepy hairy straight male wearing womens clothes" variety that lives vicariously through support group meetings and talks about being "trapped"."

But what exactly is a "creepy hair straight male wearing womens clothes" and why do you feel you are above such people? It sounds very prejudiced and condescending.

hi, i cant really give as much help as some of these other ladies can but , i can say with out a doubt you are not alone, i too am still in a stage of utter confusion and tbh some guilt about it, i am just this week learning to accept what i feel instead of the typical "male" response to box it up and stuff all emotions away to be forgotten or atleast trying to be forgotten.
to hell with that im tired of rationalizeing and hideing my true self from my self, deep down i guess i always knew but lately.. wow, cant hide the facts from me after all arent i the human that feels them, anyhow sorry about the tangent, but no youre not alone
emma

Welcome to Susan's, Emmalene. I understand the confusion you must feel. I was confused for weeks until counseling revealed that I am a crossdresser. Later I embraced it and felt completed and liberated. When I read about what transgender is, it connected with me immediately.

I am happy and content and do not feel guilty or ashamed about wearing womens' clothes. If I had my choice I would be a full time crossdresser. I hope this forum helps you to sort through your confusion.

Gennee

This topic has the potential to be a great discussion, provided people don't take it too far. If this becomes an attack fest or mudslinging fest I will put a halt to it right quick. I want to see this thread stay on topic. Thanks!

Firstly, i think if you went to see your therapist all dolled up, you are likely to already be a little more confident than many trans people without even realizing it. Going out in the clothes you feel comfortable in without worrying about what other people think is a very tough step for many transgendered individuals and one that often doesn't come until after transition.

Secondly, I think that yes, transsexuals often cross dress in their youth, perhaps because it arouses them or simply because it feels right, this is all part of experimentation which I personally think is quite important in anyones life, especially that of a transsexual. Without experimenting and exploring who you are, you cant really be sure you know yourself truly and if you don't know yourself, you are not ready to transition.

These are just my personal opinions, but I feel I know myself very well and I think the exploring I did in my youth really helped me to to find my true self

On the other hand, i do believe there are those who are simply perverted. I've had experience of this, of usually middle aged to old men, very hairy, getting dressed up in lingerie and taking photos of themselves with their bits out and toys brandished and feeling the need to send them to me, which I just think is disgusting, so I can kinda see where the stereotype comes from.

Quote from: Emmalene on November 17, 2007, 05:26:43 AM
"That and I cringe when I hear it becuase it's usually the "creepy hairy straight male wearing womens clothes" variety that lives vicariously through support group meetings and talks about being "trapped"."

But what exactly is a "creepy hair straight male wearing womens clothes" and why do you feel you are above such people? It sounds very prejudiced and condescending.

How do I define "creepy hairy straight male wearing womens clothes"?  Actually I just repeated the exact phrase you used in your first post.  How do I define it though?  I think the real question we haven't answered is why does the phrase "trapped" creep us out?

I only speak for me, but it has alot to do with why I avoid support group meetings.  Not that there aren't some people there worth getting to know (in fact one of the greatest people I had the pleasure of knowing, an FtM, I met through one such support group meeting), but they are often dominated by crossdressers who use the meeting as their only outlet for their crossdressing, that is of course if its not saturday night and they're not at the bar.  Its the same reason my first gender therapist had to remind his patients that while they could dress however they chose, that he worked in an office building and they had to show some level of, um, decency.

Society at large puts us all in the same boat (the leaky one that's gonna sink and drown all of us hopefully), but when a garden variety crossdresser/->-bleeped-<- dresses like a hooker, and generally objectifies women, I find it in really bad taste when they turn around and talk about feeling "trapped" and how they'd get "the op" if only...<insert lame excuse here>.  That to me is the "creepy hairy straight male wearing womens clothes"

So to wrap this up, I don't think I'm above them, but I do think they unwittingly (and I hope unintentionally) marginalize the pain, suffering and trauma that goes along with even the most successful TS outcomes (transition sounds a little too metaphysical at this point) by treating the hormonal/surgical route as some weekend fantasy.

Quote from: Enigma on November 17, 2007, 03:36:47 PM

Quote from: Emmalene on November 17, 2007, 05:26:43 AM
"That and I cringe when I hear it becuase it's usually the "creepy hairy straight male wearing womens clothes" variety that lives vicariously through support group meetings and talks about being "trapped"."

But what exactly is a "creepy hair straight male wearing womens clothes" and why do you feel you are above such people? It sounds very prejudiced and condescending.

How do I define "creepy hairy straight male wearing womens clothes"?  Actually I just repeated the exact phrase you used in your first post.  How do I define it though?  I think the real question we haven't answered is why does the phrase "trapped" creep us out?

I only speak for me, but it has alot to do with why I avoid support group meetings.  Not that there aren't some people there worth getting to know (in fact one of the greatest people I had the pleasure of knowing, an FtM, I met through one such support group meeting), but they are often dominated by crossdressers who use the meeting as their only outlet for their crossdressing, that is of course if its not saturday night and they're not at the bar.  Its the same reason my first gender therapist had to remind his patients that while they could dress however they chose, that he worked in an office building and they had to show some level of, um, decency.

Society at large puts us all in the same boat (the leaky one that's gonna sink and drown all of us hopefully), but when a garden variety crossdresser/->-bleeped-<- dresses like a hooker, and generally objectifies women, I find it in really bad taste when they turn around and talk about feeling "trapped" and how they'd get "the op" if only...<insert lame excuse here>.  That to me is the "creepy hairy straight male wearing womens clothes"

So to wrap this up, I don't think I'm above them, but I do think they unwittingly (and I hope unintentionally) marginalize the pain, suffering and trauma that goes along with even the most successful TS outcomes (transition sounds a little too metaphysical at this point) by treating the hormonal/surgical route as some weekend fantasy.

I can certainly agree with a lot of this.

I have found that generally, when your average person hears the word 'transgendered' or 'transexual', the first thing they think of and mention is transvestism and cross dressing. As a transexual and a cross dresser are completely different (in my eyes) this can cause all sorts of issues because of the stereotypes people have already built up about cross dressers in particular, namely a) that they are straight men who like to wear womens clothes and B) that they are not comfortable enough to shave themselves, but trapse about in tarty clothing. Now I'm not necessarily saying that these things are always true, but if you've ever been out in Glasgow on a Saturday night, I'm almost certain you'll understand why Joe public thinks so. This is also why every time I hear the phrase 'oh, so you are trapped in the wrong body?' it makes me cringe and kinda stressy

I think, in my experience, its this apparent refusal to explore further coupled with the needy attitude and a surprising negativity towards transexuals (which I've most often come across when said cross dressers are en masc) which really makes me a little unsure about a certain type of cross dresser, not all.

I want to add my experience (I'm 40+). I wear my mom's clothes for first time when I was 9 y.o. At that age I was completely asexual (as a child).
Why did this? I don't know, that time I realize my need to wear a skirt to have long hair and to present myself like a real girl.

Since my puberty I controlled that feeling but never stopped.

I feel my self trapped in wrong body? No I don't think so, this is me and I like myself as I am.

Today I live ¾ of my time as a woman and getting in hormones soon.

So I think we must follow our needs, sooner or later we can find our path.

Panic is a bad counselor.

Quote from: Emmalene on November 15, 2007, 06:32:52 PM
So I hear people say things like "a transsexual is trapped in the body of the opposite sex, that is okay with me, but a cross dresser is a creepy hairy straight male wearing womens clothes to get their rocks off". It is mostly genetic women close to the GLTG community who say things like this.

I think they're confusing cross dresser with fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-. Of course, creepy can be applied to anyone, including some genetic women.

Karen Lyn

Almost all women are afraid of creepy lads that play with women's underwear for sexual kicks & I don't blame them.  I'm too because they are more likely to attack women & rape them.  But not every crossdresser is like that.  There are differences in  psychology & behaviour & exceptions to every written rule, even human psychology & sexual behaviour. 

I don't quite agree that transsexuals start as cd's.  Most older transsexuals confuse crossdressing with tsim & may experience lapses of crossdressing before coming to terms with their gender conflicts but crossdressing isn't transsexualism and transsexualism isn't crossdressing.

Hopefully this isn't straying too far off topic...
I've used the phrase "trapped in a man's body" about myself before, and I think it is at least partly accurate for me.  I am not in a safe position to begin my transition, in a sense I do feel like I'm "trapped" in a body that is not my own.  But, my actual feelings of gender identity aren't feelings of being trapped, they are more that something isn't right and does not match my inner self.  The feeling of being trapped is from feeling limited in my options to do something about it.  The feeling of being "trapped" is separate from, but related to, my gender identity.

Quote from: Valentina on November 17, 2007, 09:53:25 PM
crossdressing isn't transsexualism and transsexualism isn't crossdressing.

i couldn't agree more with you.  cd's aren't transsexual.  transsexualism pertains to gender whereas cross dressing pertains to clothes.  according to the definitions of this site:

QuoteCrossdresser: a person wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally no sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

->-bleeped-<-: a person who wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally a strong sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

Androgyne: a person who does not fit cleanly into the typical gender roles of their society.  Androgyne have a unique gender identity which is not of the traditional genders of male or female. Androgynes may identify as beyond gender, between genders, moving across genders, entirely genderless, and as any combination or all of these.[/b]

i think it's about time for ppl to identify with the correct term & stop using other definitions that don't apply to them.

also;

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/cathytg/essays.htm

In my own experience from myself or support groups, most TS rarely or never crossdress, they start wearing clothes they like 24/7 once they transition. Before that, crossdressing would just be a painfull reminder of what's missing.

I think the problem is that the fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-s tend to get lumped into crossdressers and what not. All too often, I'm told I'm a ->-bleeped-<- by some random Internet people on forums or chat, and then I have to correct them (being an androgyne and what not), even explaining the key differences (sexual motivation versus emotional versus identity). The problem is that old popular films (Silence of the Lambs and etc) have made it harder for people to distinguish one group from another, it's sad that folks go the movies to be educated, but that's the way it is.

And to be honest, the fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-s I've known tend to be more laid back when you find their closer to my generation, the ones of other generations that I've encountered tend to have a hyper-masculine versus hyper-feminine conception of sexuality for which I have no clue why (maybe it's movies and popular culture again, who knows). So, maybe most of the 'creep' references are not entirely true, at least that's been my experience.

-- Brede