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Getting to know one another, androgyny talk.

Started by cindybc, November 18, 2007, 01:53:06 AM

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cindybc

Hi all. It was suggested that another thread should be started for just general chat and getting to know one another.



We are an island standing apart from all else. But are also a part of nature, as much as the shore, the water, the trees and the  sun.

Cindy
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RebeccaFog


Hi Cindy,

   I'll just start by writing what I did this morning.

   I went to service at our Unitarian Universalist church.  Today's service revolved around our gratitude for nature such as the moon, the sun, water, animals, birds, food, and so on.  The children served us small squares of cornbread and tiny symbol (plastic) glasses of cranberry juice.  We listened as the minister explained to the children how the separatists brought the ideas of freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of the press over from the Netherlands.  They learned those ideas there.  They never would have been able to pick up those ideas or especially practice them had they stayed in England.  In fact, they were supposed to be killed had they hung around there.
  Anyway, we stacked some food for the hungry up by the alter as part of the service.  We promised part of our collection to the Nathan Hale group.  They are trying to help disabled and messed up veterans who are not being serviced by the government.
  We were reminded by the minister that the stone which lies at the bottom of the upper pews in the rear of the chapel is the last stone the pilgrims stepped on when they were attending their place of worship in the Netherlands.  The stained glass window that shows a printing press being destroyed is because the king of England finally persuaded the King of the Netherlands  to smash the separatists' printing press from which they produced their literature and bibles.
   We also learned that the Dutch wore wooded shoes because they lived where it was always wet and the shoes kept their feet dry.
   We all know that the natives here taught the pilgrims about using corn as a staple for their meals, but we went over it again because it really is very important in that it demonstrates that different people can not only live in peace, but also contribute to the welfare of each other.  Also, when you consider that one half of the colonists died during that first winter, you can see how easy it might have been for the natives to do nothing for the survivors.  The importance of the lessons by the Indians to the pilgrims cannot be understated.

   Anyway, the reason I am using this service to describe myself is that I find the story of the pilgrims to be very powerful as a learning tool for myself and as inspiration as to how I should conduct myself.  If not for the kindness and the generosity of the Dutch in the Netherlands and the Natives here, they would surely have perished.  If not at the hands of the English throne, then by nature itself in the bountiful yet hard world they had eventually found themselves.

   I also like a good laugh as many of you know.  Just so you don't think I'm some kind of humorless person -  :laugh:


Love,

Rebis
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cindybc

Hi Rebis, welcome to the Getting to know one another, androgyny talk.

I love what you had to say about the pilgrims and how they could not have survived without the help of the people that knew the ways of the land. I was born in this country, actually I was raised in the timber lands of Ontario. A beautiful land it was, but had a very harsh environment during the winter. I am Iroquois descendant but grew up with the Ojibwa.  My church has always been the land itself the air is the Great Spirit that blows life unto the mother earth.

I have not really gotten into any religions except for the Catholic church and when I was 16 we parted company. I have nothing against any faith or church that is the choice that individuals take for what ever their reason. I have learned many things in part from one religion to another and I do consult the bible to if I can find any references that may confirm a certain thought or feeling.

I have discovered just how the qualities of empathy and the level spirituality the androgyne folks are part of and that was what caught my attention, and curiosity. I just have a desire to learn more about the androgyne, who in many ways I have come to discovered I can identify with many of the traits that have been talked about. This is a general chat for Androgyne people and please don't hesitate to speak what is from the heart.

Cindy

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Patroklos

Well, I always hesitate to speak from the heart.. =/ It often leads people to think that I don't have one.

I really haven't any idea about what to say.
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cindybc

Hi Milo
Just say anything that's on your mind, this is what this thread was meant to be. Anything at all even about the new shoes you bought today.

Cindy
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NickSister

Talking about shoes. At work today I have these white slip on shoes with pink flowers on them. I love those shoes but they are starting to fall apart. Going to need to think about replacing them shortly.
I'm finding the more I dress appropriately for me,  the less I want to 'go back' - I feel like a starved person suddenly on the edge of a great buffet and only allowed to sample the entrees. I am starting to find shopping for man clothes a real trial - even if it is for something I really need for work, I usually end up buying nothing and running off home to mope. I've been thinking of talking to me wife about being able to dress the way I want - at least at home. There has been a lot of creep in my dress lately which she has accepted really well. Her biggest fear is of being someone that other people look at and I can be rather visible, but she is becoming more comfortable too. 

I certainly have opportunities to dress in private but it just does not cut it. I want to be me, and recognised as being me, I want to live. We are getting there slowly. I just need some patients I guess. Interestingly the more we go along the more we switch in and out of traditional male female roles. Just yesterday she was the one holding me tight and stroking my hair and acting all protective in a distinctly masculine way. It was good.

My second appointment for facial hair removal is in a couple weeks. Even after one session I am loving it. My face is smother, I have about half the facial hair, shaving is easier and more pleasant (though more frequent dues to patchiness).

I'm not entirely sure what the destination is for the way I appear. I would like to keep feminising until I reach a point where I feel I'm where I want to be.
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Jaimey

Quote from: NickSister on November 18, 2007, 03:12:33 PM
I certainly have opportunities to dress in private but it just does not cut it. I want to be me, and recognised as being me, I want to live.

It's suffocating to pretend to be something you're not, isn't it?  I have often felt like I was choking myself/suffocating/drowning to please others.  In the past couple of years, I've had two business professional jobs where you really can't dress in between.  If you're a woman, you have to wear women's clothes and shoes, and if you're a man, you have to wear a suit and tie.  It would be really hard to get around it.  Both of those positions were in sales and you have to be confident and outgoing, and really, you have to be "normal" or people won't buy from you.  I lasted less than a week in the field for both of them because I couldn't do it.  The job I just started is business casual (though it's in a call center, so it's not like anyone would know if we wore jeans, but anyway...) and we can wear jeans on Friday.  It's not that different, but it's flexible enough that I'm not suffocating.  All I have to do is answer the phone.  I can dress androgynously.  I don't have to be someone else to get paid.  The salary potential is much less than both of those, but I'm more happy than I ever would have been doing those jobs and making $200,000 a year.  I'm also thinking about going back to school to be a teacher.  I'll probably go back next fall, although I really hate the idea of taking out more student loans...ugh.

It's a shame that society tries so hard to make us all the same.  I've always thought that a lot of my peers were "sheep" in the sense that they all tried to be what MTV wanted them to be and a lot of adults I knew were always trying to keep up with the Joneses. 

I'm glad that I'm different.  I'm glad you all are different and that we are all different together.  Unique just like everyone else?  Absolutely.  If I were like everyone else, I'd be bored to death. :D
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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Patroklos

My appearance is a strange thing. =/

Sometimes it feels good to dress up in a long skirt and sometimes I like to wear a shirt and tie. Most of the time though, I wear boys clothes that are worn, comfortable but still slim/tight fitting and then I choose whether to wear a binder or a bra according to the day. It puts me somewhere in the middle and that is what suits me best. And even when I'm at my manliest I still have eyeliner and painted toenails. XD

I think that if I had a male body, or at least no breasts, that I would probably never feel uncomfortable that way, either. However, it's the boobs that signal to people "Hey, girl." and they then call me "Miss" which irks me. I like to float from neutral to male. That's where I fit in and when someone assumes otherwise because I wear pink or something, I get very frustrated. So, I think that top surgery would probably fix that to a point for me, and generally being less quiet about who I am might help people understand me better, on the whole.

Gender roles don't really effect me all that much. I played football on the boy's team and took ballet lessons. My parents really didn't believe in teaching me how I ought to be. Instead, they encouraged me to express myself and challenge the expectations of others. My mom just laughed and took a picture when I wore two different shoes and clown make up to kindergarten and so I was never really expected to be male or female, except by strangers who were uncomfortable with me.

I get a lot of weird looks on the street when I'm passing as male but wear a short skirt over my jeans. XD I've actually been attacked by homophobic men before who found me attractive but were enraged because they thought that made them gay. 0.0 A few lawsuits later, they changed their tune. =/
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NickSister

Sounds like you had some good parents there Milo.

Yeah, suffocation is a good description Jaimey.
What would you like to teach Jaimey?

I went to teachers training college for a bit intending to teach in...um I guess you guys in the States call it High School. I was going to be qualified to teach Biology, Math(s), Physics, and Chemistry. I got to my first teaching placement and suddenly was reminded that kids were not there to learn, so I packed it in. I could not hack it. Looking back I should have trained to teach younger kids. I think I would have liked that much better. Make sure you take time to develop 'the stare' and learn some crowd control techniques.

Now days I am a usability researcher, helping to design things for the internet (I find out what people want and try to create specifications for what that is, I can't actually build it). Things are pretty relaxed in my office in terms of dress code.
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Simon

Quote from: Jaimey on November 18, 2007, 05:38:05 PM
It's suffocating to pretend to be something you're not, isn't it?  I have often felt like I was choking myself/suffocating/drowning to please others.
Definitely.

As I said in my intro post, I'm a Maths/Science tutor and I've just finished a BSc.  For my next step, I could study another two years and get a formal teaching qualification.  I'm really undecided.  I don't want to study two more years just to put myself into another suffocating environment.

Sadly, there are still a lot parents who think that being gay or lesbian is something bad that happens to your kids when they have dodgy gender role models, or that every man is either cisgender straight or a paedophile. :(

Don't let that negative tone get me wrong, though.  Overall I'm happy enough with how my life is.  There are lots of challenges, especially right now, but I feel okay about them.

Aside from all that, I live in Australia, I'm a diehard geek and 20.  That sums me up very roughly.
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kestin

Quote from: Milo on November 18, 2007, 06:08:09 PM
My appearance is a strange thing. =/

Sometimes it feels good to dress up in a long skirt and sometimes I like to wear a shirt and tie. Most of the time though, I wear boys clothes that are worn, comfortable but still slim/tight fitting and then I choose whether to wear a binder or a bra according to the day. It puts me somewhere in the middle and that is what suits me best. And even when I'm at my manliest I still have eyeliner and painted toenails. XD

I think that if I had a male body, or at least no breasts, that I would probably never feel uncomfortable that way, either. However, it's the boobs that signal to people "Hey, girl." and they then call me "Miss" which irks me. I like to float from neutral to male. That's where I fit in and when someone assumes otherwise because I wear pink or something, I get very frustrated. So, I think that top surgery would probably fix that to a point for me, and generally being less quiet about who I am might help people understand me better, on the whole.

Gender roles don't really effect me all that much. I played football on the boy's team and took ballet lessons. My parents really didn't believe in teaching me how I ought to be. Instead, they encouraged me to express myself and challenge the expectations of others. My mom just laughed and took a picture when I wore two different shoes and clown make up to kindergarten and so I was never really expected to be male or female, except by strangers who were uncomfortable with me.

I'm surprised by how alike we two are :3 I can pretty much say I've experienced all that you have in regards to how you dress and how you view your body (though I cannot easily pass as male just yet) lol, I did ballet from ages 5-13 (had to quit cause of feet issues) I remember wanting to learn the boys roles and yar, my parents rocked too on the whole 'not making me conform to normal behaviour' XD

In other news, I went to the library today and got out a bunch of books on ->-bleeped-<- related topics, the one I'm reading now is titled 'Female Masculinity' by Judith Halberstam. Highly recommend it.

Bah, dammit, can't write for much longer as I have work... see's ye all.

Chars
Geekstin.
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cindybc

Hi all and Jaimey

QuoteI'm glad that I'm different.  I'm glad you all are different and that we are all different together.  Unique just like everyone else?  Absolutely.  If I were like everyone else, I'd be bored to death. 

I do so agree with that statement, I don't remember not having anyone think I wasn't weird. Why should I even want to change that at 62? The only thing I don't like at times is the loneliness. Well Wing Walker and I went to Seattle to meet with a lady for lunch. She is a member of Susan's and she's a wonderful soul. At least I am not alone, I have a new friend and I have my Wing Walker. and you guys.  ;D 

Cindy
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Pica Pica

Quote from: kestin on November 18, 2007, 10:49:13 PM

Bah, dammit, can't write for much longer as I have work... see's ye all.

Now that is unfortunately the whole truth of it.
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kestin

Am back from work!

So yeah, I'm a full-time animation student 9-4:30 mon-thurs plus 20+ hrs work on top of that. Every. Single. Week. That being said, I do love my job (cleaning at an advertising agency where they make pretty things, drink alot and I get animation contacts through!) And school is pure awesomeness, cause I get to draw all day, I love animating (its the disney style we're doing, hand-drawing and flipping of teh paper) I haven't missed one day of school in the two years I've been there so far.

But yes, regardless of the little free-time I have, I still hope to be a regular here :3
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cindybc

Hi Kestin
Your work making cartoon animations sounds interesting, I have drawn cartoons actually I can pretty well draw anything, but I'm afraid not animations. I think it would be neat to watch someone make them.  ;D

Cindy 
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Patroklos

I do life drawing but that's about all. Theatre is my art. I act professionally. ^^

Actually, you know, my high school drama teacher told me that one of my greatest strengths as an actor was my androgyny. I would never have trouble playing male or female parts. Which explains why he cast me for five male rolls and three female ones. XDD

I love theatre so, so much.
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Pica Pica

I used to be into theatre, acted with the RSC for a bit. There is a really special feeling that you get from it. I'm not good enough to be close enough to it any more, so I avoid it a bit now. But I did love it so much.
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Patroklos

I don't really know if I'm any good but it keeps me employed so I figure that I must be good enough. XD
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Shana A

So, besides thinking about gender all the time (what, there's other things? :o), my passion is music. I play various stringed instruments; fiddle, mandolin, acoustic guitar, banjo, etc., and am fortunate to make a living teaching private lessons and playing some gigs. I've recorded some albums too ;D

I live in a rural area, and we've recently started growing more of our own veggies, yum. I'm Jewish by birth, however all religions/spiritualities interest me, particularly ways in which gender variant people have been part of these. I've also been an activist for much of my adult life, am currently thinking that I'd like to find a way to be more active in transgender issues, perhaps even getting a job working on them. I want to create (and live in) a world in which it is safe to be ANY gender one wishes to be.

zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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cindybc

Hi y2gender

I wish you much luck in your quest to work in transgender issues. That is what I am presently trying to get into, so much paper pushing, "aghhhhhhh" I guess for one I need to have a lot of patience. In the mean time I have been working with a couple of people on my own, that is at least giving me some gratification and and it helps towards making me feel useful for something.

Cindy

Posted on: November 19, 2007, 08:55:26 PM
Hi Milo

"Wow" working in theatre was always a passion for me but I never really got there. Except for some play acting in my own home, sometimes I had some friends come over to watch, it was all for the fun of it, but at least I played female roles. That is about as far as that went or as close as I came to being an actor. I did and actually still do have a pretty good imagination. I have written children's short fantasy stories. In my younger days I was very much androgynous in appearance and a late developer and there was a time during the hippie era I passed as a girl, well I have that story posted around this message board somewhere.

Cindy     
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