So I have been thinking a lot about homophobia and transphobia, but when you think about it are they really phobias. I mean people who are struggling with phobias often will feel extreme anxiety when they are in a situation where they are being exposed to whatever it is that they are afraid of. It is so extreme that when they are in an environment where they are getting exposed to their phobia they can barely function. It negatively affects the person who has the phobia, but when people are homo "phobic" they tend to hurt someone else. People use the words homophobic and transphobic every time someone commits a hate crime or says something ignorant on the internet, but are they really phobias.

On they other hand I think I am genuinely cisphobic, and I think it is a real phobia. When I go out in public and I think im the only trans person, I will get huge anxiety attacks every time I have to interact with strangers. it sucks. it makes it hard for me to be social. When my housemates bring friends over, I avoid them like the plague especially if im in boy mode. I am getting better as hormones do their work, and I am looking more and more feminine, but random social interaction is still scary for me ( my voice  )

I just wanted to talk about this because I have seen the words cisphobia, on facebook or whatever. And  my initial reaction is like, "WAHHH! that's like reverse racism" and I have seen it used in a way that is similar to how people use reverse racism. But when you think about it like any other phobia ( the person with the phobia is the one that gets hurt by the phobia) then yes I am cisphobic.

whats ur thoughts on this?

I've long though that terms transphobia, homophobia and xenophobia would be better served by a more accurate term indicating the hatred that's usually there too. Like misogyny, misandry and misanthropy do. Mind you "mistransery" doesn't exist as a word as far as I know and doesn't really roll off the tongue. But it is clear that fear and ignorance is the basis of most hatred, so I guess transphobia has some merit, people fear what they do not understand or feel will cause them harm. So if you have cisphobia what is it that terrifies you about cis gender people? Are you afraid they will hurt you, treat you different? It sounds to me like anxiety and panic conflated with cis gender people, at any rate if it is causing you distress and stopping you from functioning and living your life you really should get it looked at because cis people are effectively everywhere and the majority of them are fairly harmless.

and the thing is, some of these cisgender could actually be trans people as well because some of us can do a very good job a blending in. just my 2 cent lol

I can remember that feeling of lonesomeness and isolation while I was making my transition.  I used to describe it as being as if I was from another planet and was marooned and couldn't get home.  As you move on into your transition and start to create a new life for yourself this feeling will lessen though.

I do realize that the vast majority of people are cis and harmless, but due to the fact that I still have a beard shadow and big veiny arms, I am very visible as a trans women. so I get a lot of stares and ive gotten laughed at. Its those little cruel acts that bother me, and im pretty good at shrugging them off afterwards and moving on with my life. I just have that reaction every time I deal with someone new. Just I guess I have a negative view on how the cis world feels about trans people based on my family, based on what friends used to say when I was growing up, and based on all of the micro aggressions I have faced. So most of my fear is based on hearing my brothers and parents talk about queer people as if they were disgusting.

Also I think most hatred is based of of ignorance. I feel like fear and hate are two different responses to ignorance. though fear can cause hatred as well.

I understand your anxieties, but I think this is a bad term to employ. 'Phobic' has a distinct connotation of hatred in common usage, even though that is not literally what the word denotes; this is why 'homophobic' tends to suggest hatred rather than genuine panic. Indeed, when I first saw the title of this thread, I thought this was someone declaring their hatred of cis-persons, and I clicked on it because I hoped this was not in fact the case. This connotation of the suffix is so pervasive that I don't think I could ever use cis-phobic without throughly defining and contextualising my usage of the word beforehand.

And, as Echo said, some of the strangers you assume are cis- may well be trans*. It doesn't make much of a difference for you in terms of your emotional reactions if you can't tell and treat them as cis- anyway, but it's a point worth making, nonetheless.

And while I get terrified to leave my home sometimes because of fear of how people will treat me, I know that there are many cis-people out there who will be neutral or kind towards a transgirl like myself; moreover, I am probably read as trans* in some situations where I think I've passed, and yet the cis-person in question has not treated me negatively or as some sort of spectacle. So, the fear is real, but it should not overshadow the fact that decent non-trans people exist, even if they are in the minority in the place that you live.

Quote from: Gabrielle_22 on May 03, 2015, 07:14:55 PM
I understand your anxieties, but I think this is a bad term to employ. 'Phobic' has a distinct connotation of hatred in common usage, even though that is not literally what the word denotes; this is why 'homophobic' tends to suggest hatred rather than genuine panic. Indeed, when I first saw the title of this thread, I thought this was someone declaring their hatred of cis-persons, and I clicked on it because I hoped this was not in fact the case. This connotation of the suffix is so pervasive that I don't think I could ever use cis-phobic without throughly defining and contextualising my usage of the word beforehand.

And, as Echo said, some of the strangers you assume are cis- may well be trans*. It doesn't make much of a difference for you in terms of your emotional reactions if you can't tell and treat them as cis- anyway, but it's a point worth making, nonetheless.

And while I get terrified to leave my home sometimes because of fear of how people will treat me, I know that there are many cis-people out there who will be neutral or kind towards a transgirl like myself; moreover, I am probably read as trans* in some situations where I think I've passed, and yet the cis-person in question has not treated me negatively or as some sort of spectacle. So, the fear is real, but it should not overshadow the fact that decent non-trans people exist, even if they are in the minority in the place that you live.

but doesn't that connotation actually come from words like transphobic and homophobic, and when its used that way doesn't it seem to diminish what people with phobic disorders actually experience. when you say that homophobia is a phobia you are putting them in the same box as people who are the victims of having a phobic disorder. I just really feel like the words homophobia and transphobia are like a euphemism for prejudice. to make cis people feel better.

Quote from: Echo Alcestis on May 03, 2015, 06:52:18 PM
and the thing is, some of these cisgender could actually be trans people as well because some of us can do a very good job a blending in. just my 2 cent lol

this is true, when I wrote " When I go out in public and I think im the only trans person," i was trying to say that some of the people i assumed were cis could have been trans. I intentionally used the word think.

Amber, I totally get what you're talking about. There are a lot of transphobic people. When I see or meet a cis person (or someone who is probably cis), I don't *know* that they're not transphobic. I'm just not sure. So I check myself to make sure I pass, I watch for signs that I'm being clocked, scowls, etc.

IMO, there's really nothing for it. It's self preservation, and as long as we give cis people a fair shake when it comes time to come out to them, I'm willing to live with being this way.

Yea absolutely its not that most cis people hate or even care about trans people one way or the other. It's the ones who are transmisogynist that I'm afraid of.

Quote from: amber roskamp on May 03, 2015, 07:12:24 PM
I do realize that the vast majority of people are cis and harmless, but due to the fact that I still have a beard shadow and big veiny arms, I am very visible as a trans women. so I get a lot of stares and ive gotten laughed at. Its those little cruel acts that bother me, and im pretty good at shrugging them off afterwards and moving on with my life. I just have that reaction every time I deal with someone new. Just I guess I have a negative view on how the cis world feels about trans people based on my family, based on what friends used to say when I was growing up, and based on all of the micro aggressions I have faced. So most of my fear is based on hearing my brothers and parents talk about queer people as if they were disgusting.

Also I think most hatred is based of of ignorance. I feel like fear and hate are two different responses to ignorance. though fear can cause hatred as well.

Amber,

I don't like how my arms look either. So my solution is very simple: I always wear long-sleeved stuff in public.

I don't have any more beard shadow because of laser pre-HRT and IPL just recently, but I still have lots of annoying fair hairs in the face (not grays, just colorless hairs that I've always had since puberty and neither laser nor IPL took care of them). So I only go out in public when I am recently shaved and I make sure the foundation powder I use makes my face look hairless. Then the contrast I create on my face using some blush and lip color makes me pass face wise and from there on, everything gets easier in spite of my being tall and big in my upper body.

So IMHO I think that if you covered the areas you consider your weakest ones feminine-looking wise, you will do all right. In my real life experience, this is what matters most: 1) face and hair 2) voice 3) not showing evident body flaws and 4) attitude (showing that you are comfortable in your own skin, standing tall, smiling or showing a friendly face as opposed to a "resting bitch" one, more suitable for males than females), ignoring people staring at you, but being alert and ready to act in case they'd try to make a move on you.

Oh and BTW I have a 100% non-supportive family. In July it will be four years already since I told them that I am a transwoman, that I already had orchi and t-shave and they still keep treating me 100% like a man, addressing me like that and embarrassing me in public, calling me the male birth name and addressing me as their "son", knowing how much damage that does to me emotionally. So in this day and age, it is commonplace the fact that most people, including our parents, siblings and the rest of close relatives, will be hostile towards transgender people in general, and in denial and non-accepting of the ones they may have in their own family. I have given up on my parents regarding their acceptance. Unfortunately I live with them at the moment so I have to juggle having to live as a pseudo-guy at home with them and then "transforming myself" when I go out in public, and then presenting myself in the middle of both presentations, when I go out somewhere accompanied by them. It is such a draining way of life, but I have to endure that on a daily basis.

I used to think I had "cis-phobia" as well, but I've realized that I have a phobia against only those who may be ignorant, prejudiced and stupid, to the point of actually caring about my appearance when they don't even know me. But that's always a small minority and once you start building up your confidence and getting used to exposing yourself, that anxiety decreases and you start getting more accepted by the nice people, and just ignored by the ignorant bigots.

Cheers

Bibi B

I don't think it's all that unusual to be concerned about what people might think of you, or might do, if they aware you are trans.. However, it's not healthy to allow that concern to become a fear that controls you. It's also not healthy to assume that everyone will hate you for it.

Quote from: bibilinda on May 03, 2015, 09:38:58 PM
Oh and BTW I have a 100% non-supportive family. In July it will be four years already since I told them that I am a transwoman, that I already had orchi and t-shave and they still keep treating me 100% like a man, addressing me like that and embarrassing me in public, calling me the male birth name and addressing me as their "son", knowing how much damage that does to me emotionally. So in this day and age, it is commonplace the fact that most people, including our parents, siblings and the rest of close relatives, will be hostile towards transgender people in general, and in denial and non-accepting of the ones they may have in their own family. I have given up on my parents regarding their acceptance. Unfortunately I live with them at the moment so I have to juggle having to live as a pseudo-guy at home with them and then "transforming myself" when I go out in public, and then presenting myself in the middle of both presentations, when I go out somewhere accompanied by them. It is such a draining way of life, but I have to endure that on a daily basis.

And then there are those of us who have no issues with acceptance from family or friends - or even random members of the public. Yes, your experiences suck, but they are not universal. I find the less of an issue I make my gender, the less of an issue it is for others.

Quote from: bibilinda on May 03, 2015, 09:38:58 PM

So IMHO I think that if you covered the areas you consider your weakest ones feminine-looking wise, you will do all right. In my real life experience, this is what matters most: 1) face and hair 2) voice 3) not showing evident body flaws and 4) attitude (showing that you are comfortable in your own skin, standing tall, smiling or showing a friendly face as opposed to a "resting bitch" one, more suitable for males than females), ignoring people staring at you, but being alert and ready to act in case they'd try to make a move on you.

Absolutely agree, along with the Tracheal shave if you've a prominent AA (like mine  )

Above all its confidence in yourself, which expresses confidence to others

I think we are our own worst enemies, non more-so than me (bit of a perfectionist), if we look and perceive imperfections, we feel less confident, then we are just a nervous wreck...

That's also how I used to be speaking in front of people (audiences)... I suddenly learnt how to cover any nervousness and if I stuffed up, quick thought something witty to help get me on track. Also big changes there were thanks to HRT too, it made me feel so confident!

L Katy 

Yea

Well the main thing I wanted to talk about was more the way that people use the word phobia so much differently when they say trans and  homophobia then other times. Like do homophobic/ transphobic people have the symptoms of a phobic disorder. If so is homophobia a actually a phobic disorder and thus the person needs psychological help? If you don't like that the call queer hatred a phobia, what do you think is a better word.

I'm not sure that I could come up with a better word that doesn't give off the same connotation, which hatred when I first saw the title of the thread, while still achieving the post your trying to make and this fear of certain people or groups. Hugs
Mariah

Quote from: amber roskamp on May 04, 2015, 06:29:10 AM
Yea

Well the main thing I wanted to talk about was more the way that people use the word phobia so much differently when they say trans and  homophobia then other times. Like do homophobic/ transphobic people have the symptoms of a phobic disorder. If so is homophobia a actually a phobic disorder and thus the person needs psychological help? If you don't like that the call queer hatred a phobia, what do you think is a better word.

Quote from: amber roskamp on May 04, 2015, 06:29:10 AM
Yea

Well the main thing I wanted to talk about was more the way that people use the word phobia so much differently when they say trans and  homophobia then other times. Like do homophobic/ transphobic people have the symptoms of a phobic disorder. If so is homophobia a actually a phobic disorder and thus the person needs psychological help? If you don't like that the call queer hatred a phobia, what do you think is a better word.

Hi Amber, Hmmm...

Not easy, personally any derogatory statements against specific groups, whether Gender or Race related as examples are signs of intense dislike or hatred, is this a disorder, yes! there are clear laws about derogatory comments or unfair treatment, well certainly here in Australia... So if someone is outwardly people group phobic, then they need some sort of help.

Personally I think that Phobic is a little less confronting as "hatred" e.g. "I Hate".
But are Phobic's in need of any form of treatment, that depends on how that's expressed!

I think "phobic" statements are generally flat when stated, well when I have heard it used in many scenarios, of course I don't like any derogatory comments about people anyway, so I generally do "a what's your problem" we are all human and have feelings and aspirations...

L Katy 

There is no such thing as reverse racism. Racism is racism no matter the parties involved.

As far as words like transphobia being used when a hate crime is committed or casually online when someone talks badly of a transgender person, I think it still applies. Phobia is defined as "an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects or situation." In the case of transphobia, the "objects" are transgender people. When a person has a fear of something, not only do they avoid it but they also irrationally hate whatever it is that causes the fear and phobia.

Think about a different type of phobia, say, arachnophobia (the fear of spiders). People with this phobia not only are irrationally afraid of spiders, they would also exhibit hate towards spiders for causing them fear. If someone with arachnophobia were put in a room full of spiders they would probably start to kill the spiders in order to escape from them. That would be similar to a hate crime if it were transgender people rather than spiders. People with arachnophobia would most likely avoid the subject of spiders and talking about them but in cases where they must, they would most likely talk negatively about spiders. Again replace spiders with transgender people and that becomes hate speech.

The point is, fear also causes hatred and that's what we see with homophobia and transphobia.

Sounds like standard issue social anxieties to me.   I've had to overcome them.  It wasn't the easiest thing, but I get through life without Klonopin, Buspar, Lexapro and Valium (and other things) now.

As far as people-phobias go, everyone new I encounter starts with my respect completely intact now.   Once they actually do something to lose it, then I can dismiss them as someone that is not worthy of my time.   Hatred must be earned, and I refuse to waste hate upon people who have done nothing to earn it.

Needless to say, my life has become simpler in this regard.