So, I'm a dual citizen--I have a U. S. passport and one from an island in the Caribbean, Dominica. In the U. S., I've legally changed my name and have been able to get my gender marker updated on a number of my official documents or ID cards. However, in Dominica, there is no legal precedent or grounds for changing gender on any documents, and even legally changing your name there to one associated with the opposite gender would likely be impossible because of the extreme religious bent of the country and its courts. Because of this, I've realised that I am essentially two legal entities--a legal woman in the U. S., where I am now, and a legal male in the island I grew up in, with a different first name in each.

I was curious if anyone else here is in a similar situation. It makes me curious about legal affairs. For instance, I recently had to sign a document mailed to me from the island; I was forced to sign it under my 'old' male name, since that was the name they knew me under, and I have not come out to anyone I know in Dominica except for my parents. So, for all intents and purposes, I am my old self in the island and my new self here.

Although I don't plan to return to the island soon because it would not be safe to do so, I'm wondering about how these multiple legal identities intersect. I'd love to hear more from other dual/multiple citizens on here who have changed their name in one country but not in the other--anecdotes, stories, problems you've faced, successes.

Sorry can't help, but I may face a similar as I am Australian, but also British by birth and Marriage... Although i understand in my situation it may not be such an issue... Hardest bit is what needs changing in which country.

Good luck, hope you can find away... I guess your birth certificate etc is all Dominican republic...

L Katy

I am in this situation, but in my case US and Canada.  I have almost everything changed in the US at the moment, so it does put me in a bit of limbo, but thankfully it is very possible to to change things in Canada, and that is next on my list to do.

Well as a fellow Caribbean girl myself I'm likely in the same boat. However, why won't they recognize a legal name change done in the U.S.? I believe they're supposed to per the Hague convention.

The biggest thing for me is changing the gender marker on my birth certificate. The religious establishment is fighting against us hard but I am seeing the tide turn with regard to public opinion. The fact that Jowelle DeSouza is now running for office is causing quite a stir!

Also not for nothing as these countries try to attain developed nation status, their treatment of LGBT persons is going to come to light. This is our opportunity to make it better.

Quote from: iKate on May 06, 2015, 04:45:57 AM
Well as a fellow Caribbean girl myself I'm likely in the same boat. However, why won't they recognize a legal name change done in the U.S.? I believe they're supposed to per the Geneva convention.

The biggest thing for me is changing the gender marker on my birth certificate. The religious establishment is fighting against us hard but I am seeing the tide turn with regard to public opinion. The fact that Jowelle DeSouza is now running for office is causing quite a stir!

Just read about Jowelle. Wow! Kudos to her.

Hi,

I do not know about your countries' laws, but being French Colombian im in a pretty similar situation. Here's what happens in my case: both countries' laws are totally unrelated, so I have to sort it out in both places simultaneously. When I get one ID changed (cannot get both at the same time), I'll be in a gray legal area where people are usually changing their identities for dubious reasons. I suppose if there was no legal precedent, the only way to go would be to bring the case to the Supreme Court or the legislative body for a change... There might be helpful bodies of law like international conventions but the distance from the written paper to actual physical application is long.

See this:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Convention_Abolishing_the_Requirement_for_Legalisation_for_Foreign_Public_Documents
One would think that a court ordered name change would be valid everywhere.

Are you sure whether that is a public document? I think it might be not be so at least in Rome-derived law systems. I am not sure in this case "public" refers to "written and legalized by a public authority" or if it refers to "available to the public". Where I am at, the public documents are those of public interest and that are viewable by the public at any time in some kind of public registry, database, website, etc freely or upon request. If the document is not legalized by a public figure, it's called "private". However just because the document is being legalized by a public authority, it is not automatically "public".

In my case the name change would not be viewable by the general public, so it would not be a "public document". Here the La Haye agreement would be more for documents like diploma, land owning, etc.

Quote from: ganjina on May 06, 2015, 07:56:58 AM
Are you sure whether that is a public document? I think it might be not be so at least in Rome-derived law systems. I am not sure in this case "public" refers to "written and legalized by a public authority" or if it refers to "available to the public". Where I am at, the public documents are those of public interest and that are viewable by the public at any time in some kind of public registry, database, website, etc freely or upon request. If the document is not legalized by a public figure, it's called "private". However just because the document is being legalized by a public authority, it is not automatically "public".

In my case the name change would not be viewable by the general public, so it would not be a "public document". Here the La Haye agreement would be more for documents like diploma, land owning, etc.

From my understanding though if you are a citizen of one country and you get your name changed there it is valid worldwide.

Here in the US a name change is a court order and is public record in most states.

I certainly don't plan to use my old name once I get it changed. I may even send back my birth certificate with the old name and gender crossed out and the new one written in a marker with a note that says "fix this!"

Maybe if enough people do this kind of stuff in protest they'll take note?

Worse comes to worse, if they refuse to acknowledge my true identity I will renounce my old citizenship.

To clarify, I grew up in the Commonwealth of Dominica, not the DR. Common mistake, and the post office has made it enough times, as well. My undergrad diploma went to the DR for quite some time before eventually being redirected to the correct nation.

iKate, you may be correct in a general sense about tides turning in Trinidad, but this is not the case in Dominica. Jowelle is a beacon I look to, and I think she can definitely effect inter-island change if her story gets broadcast properly. But, at the same time, it is not at all unusual for one island to say that 'we are not them' and to stick to their own reductive religious principles; Dominica has more than once has its pundits describe it as if it is a 'special' nation for Christianity, a unique place, and this kind of rhetoric of exceptionalism means a story like Jowelle's will not create sea change unless something can change in the general populace's anti-LGBTQIA views.

Thanks for bringing up the Hague Convention. I don't know enough about this to comment on it as yet; do you know any examples of a legal name in one nation change being facilitated via it in another nation? I understand that Jowelle got both name and ID changed, but, again, that is her special case, and she, moreover, had family support to help her along, which I do not. Honestly, Dominica is so explicitly homophobic and implicitly transphobic that I find it difficult to believe a court case for changing my legal name and gender (as I have done in the U. S.) there would go through, since there is so much religious bias and corruption in the courts as is. But I do not know for certain.

I suppose one of my bigger related concerns is the idea that you are, at least in the U. S., treated as if you are a 'new' person once you change both your gender and name on your passport. I had to apply for a new U. S. passport as if I were a first-time applicant, using a DS-11, in order to change the gender and name simultaneously on my passport; I was told by an official I could not renew my passport (using a renewal form) if the gender was changing because I was considered a 'new' individual under the law. There's a paper trail linking my old legal self to my new legal self, sure, but I guess there's a kind of legal sense to this--I am, in a sense, a new person now that I'm becoming truer to myself both internally and on paper.

But this makes me wonder if I am also a 'new' person to the other nation of my citizenship. If I can somehow legally change my gender and name in Dominica, that is one thing, but since this is unlikely, I am left wondering about the legal limbo--I love the image of limbo you brought up, Jessical--I am in. Can I inherit things by 'pretending' to be male? What happens when my Dominican passport expires if I wish to renew it? etc. I know these are not questions to be specifically answered here, necessarily, but because I am still not 'out' to most people back home, I have not been able to ask a legal representative from the island what to do.

I'd be happy to hear from any other dual citizens out there who have managed to change name and gender marker on one set of documents and are trying to update or have already updated those from the other nation they have citizenship in. It's an interesting, strange legal conundrum of sorts.

Quote from: Gabrielle_22 on May 06, 2015, 12:02:20 PM
iKate, you may be correct in a general sense about tides turning in Trinidad, but this is not the case in Dominica. Jowelle is a beacon I look to, and I think she can definitely effect inter-island change if her story gets broadcast properly. But, at the same time, it is not at all unusual for one island to say that 'we are not them' and to stick to their own reductive religious principles; Dominica has more than once has its pundits describe it as if it is a 'special' nation for Christianity, a unique place, and this kind of rhetoric of exceptionalism means a story like Jowelle's will not create sea change unless something can change in the general populace's anti-LGBTQIA views.

Thanks for bringing up the Hague Convention. I don't know enough about this to comment on it as yet; do you know any examples of a legal name in one nation change being facilitated via it in another nation? I understand that Jowelle got both name and ID changed, but, again, that is her special case, and she, moreover, had family support to help her along, which I do not. Honestly, Dominica is so explicitly homophobic and implicitly transphobic that I find it difficult to believe a court case for changing my legal name and gender (as I have done in the U. S.) there would go through, since there is so much religious bias and corruption in the courts as is. But I do not know for certain.

I don't know if gender would be recognized. The name change would most certainly be.

I am not so sure about Jowelle. She has kept a lot of details private (quite understandably) and I suspect her ID is still male despite the name change. Name change in Trinidad is really no big deal, you can just go to a JP, swear an affidavit and you're done. I had one done that way, adding a middle name. I do not need my Trinidad passport to travel there anyway, it expired and if they won't let me get a new one with the correct gender and name I wouldn't even bother.

In Trinidad we have religious pressure not only from Christians but from Hindus as well since about 40% is Indian and a lot of Indians are Hindu. My dad is a Hindu but I've never seen him practice.

I do understand about the smaller islands though. Most of them aren't as progressive as Trinidad, yet Trinidad still has some old "values" they are stuck to. However I do understand it can be worse. International pressure can fix some of it though. If these countries want to be part of the international community they cannot engage in denying human rights.

As for examples - a most common one is marriages. You can get married pretty much anywhere in the world and it would be recognized in your home country, unless it's a same sex marriage.

Regarding recognition and gray-area status, you could show whichever ID you felt most comfortably with, but I know that for some paperwork and the like in one of the two given countries, I would require to provide said country ID; the other ID would NOT be valid. Also, making a new legal identity altogether based on the new papers could equal to false identity and hiding of previous identity.

FYI I have checked the whole thing out for my own two countries. While the law is specific to each country in general, the general reasoning could be of relevance.

Quote from: iKate on May 06, 2015, 12:25:20 PM
I am not so sure about Jowelle. She has kept a lot of details private (quite understandably) and I suspect her ID is still male despite the name change.

I'm pretty sure her ID lists her as 'F'--all the stories I've seen about the photographer/police incident mention her showing the police her ID, which indicated she was female, like this:

"De Souza said that after officer George took her to the police station, he and other male officers taunted her for hours about her sexuality. The men insisted on searching her, even though her identification and appearance indicated she was a woman. They eventually relented but insisted on having a female officer strip-search De Souza."

From here. http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/Jowelle/Jowelle.html

I'm hoping you're right about name changes. My specific issue is not with simply applying for a name change but with the fact that I would first have to do so by outing myself as the 'male' who grew up in Dominica, then saying I legally changed my name to an unambiguously female one in the U. S. By outing myself as a transwoman requesting a name change, I'm worried this will make the process significantly more difficult. And the gender marker makes it more difficult still, since I have already changed that on most of my ID in the U. S. I can easily see someone making problems for me by saying I am listed as 'F' here but 'M' here and that they therefore don't even have to believe I am the same person. No sensible, non-corrupt official at an embassy or office would say that, but I am hardly talking about sensible, non-corrupt people here, unfortunately.

But I will try my luck, nonetheless. I plan to go to our embassy in New York soon to try applying for a renewed/new passport and see what I am told.

Quote from: Gabrielle_22 on May 06, 2015, 12:43:05 PM
I'm pretty sure her ID lists her as 'F'--all the stories I've seen about the photographer/police incident mention her showing the police her ID, which indicated she was female, like this:

"De Souza said that after officer George took her to the police station, he and other male officers taunted her for hours about her sexuality. The men insisted on searching her, even though her identification and appearance indicated she was a woman. They eventually relented but insisted on having a female officer strip-search De Souza."

From here. http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/Jowelle/Jowelle.html

I'm hoping you're right about name changes. My specific issue is not with simply applying for a name change but with the fact that I would first have to do so by outing myself as the 'male' who grew up in Dominica, then saying I legally changed my name to an unambiguously female one in the U. S. By outing myself as a transwoman requesting a name change, I'm worried this will make the process significantly more difficult. And the gender marker makes it more difficult still, since I have already changed that on most of my ID in the U. S. I can easily see someone making problems for me by saying I am listed as 'F' here but 'M' here and that they therefore don't even have to believe I am the same person. No sensible official at an embassy or office would say that, but I am hardly talking about sensible people here, unfortunately.

But I will try my luck, nonetheless. I plan to go to our embassy in New York soon to try applying for a renewed/new passport and see what I am told.

I remember that incident. Either way I'm really not interested in a TT passport anymore but it would be nice to have and I want people who need one to get one. However I can see the laws changing since with Jowelle running for office and awareness of transgender issues growing the tide is turning.

Good luck with that. I'll have to go through a similar thing for the gender marker as in one country (France) you can sort of proof you are female by showing how serious you are about your real gender role and showcasing your actions and story sort of. In the other (Colombia) you absolutely must have a vagina. Just like that. So I might end up some day in the customs showing one F passport and one M passport (both are required by Colombian customs), and who knows how the border guard would react to that?

Those situations are really gray.

Thanks for all the replies so far, by the way!  It's great to see there is a good number of us out there, and hopefully we will learn more and be able to share our information as we go on so that it will be easier to navigate these legal labyrinths in the future for other transitioning girls.

Quote from: ganjina on May 06, 2015, 12:50:13 PM
Good luck with that. I'll have to go through a similar thing for the gender marker as in one country (France) you can sort of proof you are female by showing how serious you are about your real gender role and showcasing your actions and story sort of. In the other (Colombia) you absolutely must have a vagina. Just like that. So I might end up some day in the customs showing one F passport and one M passport (both are required by Colombian customs), and who knows how the border guard would react to that?

Those situations are really gray.

Hey ganjina, I'm sorry it's that rigid in Colombia. However, I know that in the U. S., at least, gender markers on passports are mainly just there for narrowing down passenger information, so as to eliminate people wrongly being identified as the names on 'watch-for' lists (especially for androgynous or culturally unclear names). I wish the gender markers weren't there, but I know they aren't something that every passport official is really examining in detail. Especially when there are long lines of people waiting to go through immigration or into security areas. So if you change the name on both, it might not be such a big deal, travel-wise.

The first time I travelled in the U. S. presenting as androgynous/femme, I still had my 'male' passport. Although the name and gender marker indicated 'male,' I still got ma'am'ed by many of the TSA officials. One of them read my passport and gave it back to me with a 'Thank you, Miss, I mean Mr, I mean Mrs, so-and-so.' She was so confused, but not in a bad way. (I also was amused she had married me off, mentally, by the end of it.)

The main point: try to get as much of your information changed as you can, but know, too, that it might not be so bad if the gender marker cannot change on one passport, if you can at least change the name. Ideally, we will be able to change both, but...we'll have to see.

There's a site called passport index. I'm pretty sure I can get by with a US passport.

Good point, thanks for the info. I mean, it sounds quite clear that they've other business to deal with. I would still not change the gender marker in either country I think, because in both there are a lot of issues and limitations regarding couple wealth, healthcare, children rights, hospital or prison visits (I hope neither will be necessary! Except if my SO has a children: can you imagine being chased out of your own baby's birth?).

You could bitch about how much it sucks and it's retard etc., but I'll just tell myself in a funny and confident mood that what actually is going is that am fooling them with this gender thing and make them aaaaall believe I am male so I can grab those due family benefits and rights :p. Like reframing the narrative.