I expect people to disagree with me.  Probably vehemently.  Please understand that I'm suggesting this as a self-identified genderqueer person.  Understand that when I say "own", I mean, "take something that people say to cause offense, and wear it as a badge of pride".  And if you're still offended, I'm curious to hear why.

My brother dated an agendered person, and my family (myself included) had some issues with the them/they pronouns.  Skip forward a couple of years, and now I'm identifying as nonbinary.  I never said this to my brother's partner, 'cause obvious reasons, and I'm not in the habit of telling marginalized people how to handle their affairs.  English has a perfectly good neuter pronoun: 'it'.

The term "queer" was super offensive when I grew up.  But we've owned the term, and many of us identify that way.  For some, it's a comfortable umbrella term that works while they're figuring themselves out, and others are just happy to leave it at that.

The pronoun "it" is used for all sorts of gendered stuff.  Power plug?  "it".  Even though it's a female.  Cute puppy? "it".  Baby in appropriately nongendered attire? "Is it a boy or a girl?"  IT!  Why can't we talk about people this way?  Bugs me.  We can use "it" to describe anything at all, except a person.  Why?  What a stupid exception!

I say we own it.  But I'm not going to go around saying to use that pronoun just yet.  I hate to think what'll happen if I acclimate some people to using that pronoun, and they try it out when they meet another trans person.  So I'd like to hear from the offended.  Everybody, really.  But I tend to learn more from people who disagree with me.

i'm confused here. simplify please lol. sry, adhd so i got lost lol

"It" has a long history of being used to dehumanize all sorts of people which would make it a hard sell. Also, most reclaimed words are descriptive of a particular group of people. They serve no purpose other than to describe that group. Even if you can reclaim the word as applied to non-binary people "it" will still be used to refer to all the other things it's used for now. This will generate associations many of which will be unfortunate. Imagine how hard it would have been for gays to reclaim the words "->-bleeped-<-" and "->-bleeped-<-got" if they still had the alternate meanings of an underclassman indentured for the school year to an upperclassman, and thus a servant or underling and a piece of wood meant to be burned. "It" is such a basic word that the implications are limitless and can't ever all be snuffed out without a new word to take it's place. This isn't to say it can't be done, but that a new word, or using a pronoun such as "one" might be easier.

Agree with Dee, "it" can be very pointed and dehumanising when used in relation to humans and any living entity come to that...

Yes over the years many derogatory words have been defined and used collectively... But "it" is IMHO the worst because its suggesting that the person or animal (pet for example) defies any recognition or identifiable grouping.  But OK to describe an inane object...

Also agree with the word "one" .... Hmm very royal family'ish, like "ones subjects" haa but certainly not offensive

L Katy

Quote from: Echo Alcestis on May 05, 2015, 10:38:45 PM
i'm confused here. simplify please lol. sry, adhd so i got lost lol

"I'm not a  'he'.  I'm not a 'she'.  Call me 'it'."

Discuss.

(also, thank you Dee and Katy for your thoughtful responses... I'll think on them & probably respond with another wall of words in a while)

Look forward... 

L (short for love  )Katy 

Sparrow, you definitely raise a valid question and I think the answer roots back in the fact we live in a binary society. We always feel the need for everything to fit in one pot or another. Is it in or or out. Over or under. I think you get the idea. Changing to a single word or words that doesn't fall into those boxes tends to throw us off. I agree we should be able to use it. Would I ever use the word it to define myself, probably not, but I can see how others would feel it more closely defines who they are than one of the binary options available which makes it appropriate in those cases. Hugs
Mariah

"it" has too much of a nasty history and implication that i couldn't use it for anyone as their pronouns. i don't know what i would do if someone close to me wanted me to use those pronouns for them.

i don't see why "they" pronouns aren't a better substitute for a non-gendered person as they don't carry the connotation of being dehumanized or history of use against trans people.

i know people have trouble with consistently using "they" pronouns, but they will have trouble with any pronoun set that isn't "he" or "she". i would think that calling a person "it" consistently, for someone who actually wanted to be respectful, would be even harder than using "they".

i guess also i'd like to remind you that reclaimed slurs (including "queer") are still very contentious in many communities and that a lot of people still don't like using them to refer to themselves or others. honestly i think most people who are comfortable with "queer" are the people who live in areas where it's not commonly used as an insult or weapon. while you might get cis people who don't personally care to refer to you as "it", it's asking a lot of fellow trans people who may have been hurt by people referring to them as "an it" to call you that.

Sorry Sparrow, not in love with the idea. "It" is only used to refer to non-humans.

I get what you're saying, but "it" is used to refer to objects, not people, just as "he" and "she" are used to refer to people, not objects (speaking strictly in the context of English). For myself, I like "they" and am fine with "she" or "he", but "it" would carry the implication that I'm not a person, which is just dehumanizing.

I fully support anyones decision to use pronouns that make them feel comfortable in their own skin. If it is what fits you best, then use it and tell everyone else to take a long walk off a short pier.

And shame on you all for identity policing, just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone has to.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on May 06, 2015, 04:40:57 PM
I fully support anyones decision to use pronouns that make them feel comfortable in their own skin. If it is what fits you best, then use it and tell everyone else to take a long walk off a short pier.

And shame on you all for identity policing, just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone has to.

While it's not my preference to be called  "it"  I have to agree with this ▲▲▲ 

I'm frequently called things by other members of the transgender community, so I don't see how the hypothetical use of an implied slur by someone outside the transgender community is any more of a big deal?

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Dread_Faery on May 06, 2015, 04:40:57 PM
And shame on you all for identity policing, just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone has to.

Whoah, nobody's shaming anybody!  I asked for people's offended reactions!  And what I do as a trans person does reflect on trans people as a whole, intentional or not.  And this is all hypothetical anyway, and it sounds like everybody understands that.

So.  'it' is dehumanizing.  The real question is "why is 'it' dehumanizing?"  And it basically comes down to the binary gender system.  When referring to a particular person, we're need to know that person's gender before referring to them (without linguistic awkwardness).  Our language artificially elevates gender to being the most important thing to know about somebody.  That is something that I truly hate.  This is the real reason I'm interested in this question, I guess.

Also, I don't like they/their because of the plurality thing.  Referring to my brother and his partner was always weird, because 'they' both meant the partner and the couple.

Oops, Devlyn responded before I did -- your profile indicates "F".  I'm not suggesting that anybody use this pronoun to refer to you (except in the case where we currently use they/their, I guess... I guess I've always hated that linguistic hack).   I'm only talking about self-identified genderqueer people.

It's F but I identify as a non-binary transgender person.  I'm a crossdresser/genderfluid/bi-gender/two-spirit type of female looking it!   

Hugs, Devlyn

Trying to get "it" to be a socially humanizing word, I guess would probably be a loosing battle for a large portion of society. "It" is the only pronoun for inanimate and non-human objects. The history of the word is at least 4 to 6,000 years old going back as far as the theoretical Proto-Indo-European language. I found something like this progression (h₁)id -> illud -> -i/-it -> hit -> it whether it be proto indo european, latin, gaelic, old english, or current english, "it" however is the oldest gender neutral pronoun.

On a small scale, I could see several people attempting to do so. I'm just not sure about a large scale considering several of the above mentioned options people are already using.

Quote from: sparrow on May 06, 2015, 08:48:18 PM
Whoah, nobody's shaming anybody!  I asked for people's offended reactions!  And what I do as a trans person does reflect on trans people as a whole, intentional or not.  And this is all hypothetical anyway, and it sounds like everybody understands that.

So.  'it' is dehumanizing.  The real question is "why is 'it' dehumanizing?"  And it basically comes down to the binary gender system.  When referring to a particular person, we're need to know that person's gender before referring to them (without linguistic awkwardness).  Our language artificially elevates gender to being the most important thing to know about somebody.  That is something that I truly hate.  This is the real reason I'm interested in this question, I guess.

Also, I don't like they/their because of the plurality thing.  Referring to my brother and his partner was always weird, because 'they' both meant the partner and the couple.

Oops, Devlyn responded before I did -- your profile indicates "F".  I'm not suggesting that anybody use this pronoun to refer to you (except in the case where we currently use they/their, I guess... I guess I've always hated that linguistic hack).   I'm only talking about self-identified genderqueer people.

Wasn't really directed at you, it's just sad to see people shaming other people's choices based on their preconceptions. You'd think the trans community would be open to respecting peoples choices, but cissexist heteronormmitvity and the binary are things people just don't want to let go of.

'It' just feels like an object to me. And no offense to those that identify with being objects, but you don't need to respect objects, so I'd feel like I don't respect myself it I'd settle with 'it'. I'm a person, and moreso than that.

I would be ok with a new invented gender-neutral pronoun (that refers to a person without needing to imply gender), if there aren't any good ones out there. I 'prefer' she over he, so I could at least put that out there, but I'm not going to be militant about any of that, because I'd have to waste so much energy on 'correcting' others.
Well, maybe that'll change some day, if I find a better way to go about things. But yeah.

It's strange identifying as 'queer', when I've only seen it used as an insult. To me it's kind of like calling someone a sissy. But.. in a way, isn't it a complement if I like those things? depends on the situation I guess..

Hun if you like "it" I don't see any problem with u using it. I know someone that prefers it. But as a group I don't know if other people are going to accept it. It's often considered dehumanizing to be called and it. Because we refer to objects as it. That being said if it's what you like to use, use it.

I just thought, since I consider myself also pangendered and, in a sense, multi-faceted, it would kind of also make sense for 'they' to be appropriate. Not sure tho, will have to think..

I just looked at esperanto to see if the pronouns were gender-neutral, but they're not. though 'ili' means they, but since it doesn't sounds like 'they' to me, maybe I could start using it
(and 'ilia' is for 'their', simple)

Quote from: Majj Wynn on May 07, 2015, 03:47:07 PM
'It' just feels like an object to me. And no offense to those that identify with being objects, but you don't need to respect objects, so I'd feel like I don't respect myself it I'd settle with 'it'. I'm a person, and moreso than that.

I would be ok with a new invented gender-neutral pronoun (that refers to a person without needing to imply gender), if there aren't any good ones out there. I 'prefer' she over he, so I could at least put that out there, but I'm not going to be militant about any of that, because I'd have to waste so much energy on 'correcting' others.
Well, maybe that'll change some day, if I find a better way to go about things. But yeah.

It's strange identifying as 'queer', when I've only seen it used as an insult. To me it's kind of like calling someone a sissy. But.. in a way, isn't it a complement if I like those things? depends on the situation I guess..

guess im sissy then but i like being cute.