Sometimes I wish this section was just called something simple like "Other Genders".

This section used to be called Genderqueer. The people that came here included all variations not fitting into TS, TV, or IS.  (Not that the categories are exclussive in that the refer to three differnt things: biology, expression, and gender identity).

Switch to the name to Androgyne took away the bite that the word Genderqueer had towards some people, me included.

However recently has lead to more the stance of segregation of the other "others" to not be included in this section of the forums.

I don't try to segregate those that like the Genderqueer word, nor any of the the other variations that fit in the broad spectrum of "other genders identities and expressions". Such as Bigender, Neutrois, Null, Fluid, Two-Spirits, Outside Gender, Gender Outlaws, Own Gender, Gender Benders, Androgynous.

I really dont understand the need or desire to exclude person's based on academic differences.

Celebrate the differences and listen versus feeling threatened by and being selective.

Genderqueer is used by some in similar and different sense. Sometimes more broad (meaning all gender variations). Sometimes very narrow(meaning bio females meaning others have mention).

Militaristic... or rebellious spirit? I don't know. Androgynes are sorta rebellious sometimes when they feel like it. Some that identify as genderqueer don't feel as extreme. Are they more into surgeries and hrt, I really dont know.

This section used to be called Genderqueer. What a turn of events if it removed that label entirely from the section.

Should it be included in a Wiki definition of androgyne. If it is not or if it's hostile towards genderqueer, I really don't know where the definition is going, nor what it's purpose is for.

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on November 13, 2007, 02:18:27 PM
Switch to the name to Androgyne took away the bite that the word Genderqueer had towards some people, me included.

This section used to be called Genderqueer. What a turn of events if it removed that label entirely from the section.

Should it be included in a Wiki definition of androgyne. If it is not or if it's hostile towards genderqueer, I really don't know where the definition is going, nor what it's purpose is for.

The term 'androgyne' definitely has more class than 'genderqueer'. To me, it's all the same. Just genderqueer sometimes has different connotations to it. To me, there are 3 genders, even though a given gender will manifest differently person to person. With possibly the exception of people who are literally two spirits, such as Marq and Mia.
It's all in what term one feels comfortable with.

Quote from: Nero on November 13, 2007, 03:43:45 PM
The term 'androgyne' definitely has more class than 'genderqueer'. To me, it's all the same. Just genderqueer sometimes has different connotations to it.

Yes, exactly. They both refer to the same phenomenon, but androgyne contrasts it with male and female, while genderqueer contrasts it with the binary gender system. For that reason I prefer the former for most purposes, but it's really a matter of taste.

  Nfr

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on November 13, 2007, 02:18:27 PM
Sometimes I wish this section was just called something simple like "Other Genders".

Hmmmm, should we be considering a name change? I personally don't mind the name of this section, but if there were a better name that felt more inclusive to everyone, I'd be up for it.

Z

Maybe I should have called this thread "A Discussion of Semantics." 

I don't think that's there's anyone in here who wants to alienate anyone else.  Despite all of our differences, we are bound by a common thread.  We do not fit the binary.  I only started this thread to diffuse the conflict in Marketing the Androgyne I and to get us back on topic (not that I was particularly successful in the latter endeavor), just so that we are all clear.  I agree with Pica that assumptions are an integral part of learning.  If you make an assumption and you are right, then you've solidified your position.  If you make an assumption and you are wrong, then you have learned what is correct.  This thread was meant as a learning experience.  The best way to learn is to talk to others.  The more we talk, the better we will understand one another.

All that really matters is that we are together.  There is a place for all of us, no matter what words we use.  We can relate to one another, we've had similar experiences, we learn from those who have been here longer, and provide counsel for those who are just beginning to understand who they are.  As long as we are here together, we're home.

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on November 13, 2007, 02:18:27 PM
Sometimes I wish this section was just called something simple like "Other Genders".

This section used to be called Genderqueer. The people that came here included all variations not fitting into TS, TV, or IS.  (Not that the categories are exclussive in that the refer to three differnt things: biology, expression, and gender identity).

Switch to the name to Androgyne took away the bite that the word Genderqueer had towards some people, me included.

However recently has lead to more the stance of segregation of the other "others" to not be included in this section of the forums.

I don't try to segregate those that like the Genderqueer word, nor any of the the other variations that fit in the broad spectrum of "other genders identities and expressions". Such as Bigender, Neutrois, Null, Fluid, Two-Spirits, Outside Gender, Gender Outlaws, Own Gender, Gender Benders, Androgynous.

I really dont understand the need or desire to exclude person's based on academic differences.

Celebrate the differences and listen versus feeling threatened by and being selective.

In relation to some of KK's points:
I've been thinking of myself as "Gender Variant".  Maybe we could use "Other Gender" or "Gender Variant" as a catch all.

Nobody should ever be excluded.  Anyone who feels so, should speak freely. We are each as viable and as important as every other - no matter how we identify.

If we are not all inclusive then we are nothing.

   We have come a long way from showing up at this site and just trying to each understand our own individual identities and hoping to find others who would understand.  We are now at a point where I believe we are attempting to understand our identity as a group.  This, to me, is much more difficult because when I was learning to find myself, I didn't have to worry about hurting others (except my SO and I still feel guilty about that).
   Maybe it's too much for my mind.  I know we respect each other and I am proud to be one of you.  I am at a loss as to how to tie it all together in terms of definition or group identity. I absolutely do believe that a group identity is highly important.  It allows us to provide a place of support and safety for those who are of the smallest numbered "variant".

   


Rebis

Posted on: November 18, 2007, 12:35:40 AM

---

Quote from: Jaimey on November 17, 2007, 05:59:48 PM
All that really matters is that we are together.  There is a place for all of us, no matter what words we use.  We can relate to one another, we've had similar experiences, we learn from those who have been here longer, and provide counsel for those who are just beginning to understand who they are.  As long as we are here together, we're home.

This is the most important of all points.

     If we are having a communal growing experience here, then we should each be prepared to feel a lot of different emotions.  Sometimes up & sometimes down.  Whatever disappointments any one of us may suffer during this process, it should be remembered that we are each invested in reaching a goal and that the greatest priority of that goal is to overcome all disappointments.
     We should never give up or feel that we've failed. All that really matters is that we are together.


Peace,

Rebis

Non-Binary Gender Variant (NBGV) does seem to be some sort of catch all...

From wikipedia's Genderqueer article:

'Note: Some people see "genderqueer" as a more consciously politicized version of the term androgyne, popularized by Androgyne Online, which is linked below. Androgynes are also people who identify as both man and woman, or as neither. "Androgyne" is synonymous to the more cumbersome "non-binary gender variant."'

It seems to me that all three are umbrella terms of sorts. Not that Wikipedia is a good source...


If NBGV doesn't have any connotations associated with it, aside from being cumbersome, I'm going to start using it, if its okay with you all. The strict definition of androgyne doesn't fit me, nor do I want to be associated by anyone here with some political goal, I just want to be me, and if it means calling myself NBGV, then so be it.

Sorry for making a mess.

I like that. NBGV Non-Binary Gender Variant as well. Sounds very medical/clinical. I found tons of references linking of course to Non-Binary system, and to Gender Variants refering to androgynes. Thats another term for me to jot down. Couldn't find it officially used anywhere all together except in that wikipedia entry.

This seems like the wrong place for anybody to be politiking. To be honest 'genderqueer vs androgyne' seems to be a pointless battle, as each term depends almost wholly on what the user found them to mean first as opposed to any standard or instinctual definition in the words themselves. To use one over the other seems to be nothing more than habit, which is why a discussion of them would both go on forever and also feel personal, because either term is a personal one that we chose and adopted for ourselves.

As for NBGV, i reckon it could be shortened to non-binary or gender variant, for ease.

Or I could just use it as is, and everyone could respect that. 

Quote from: Kaimialana on November 19, 2007, 10:08:14 AM
Or I could just use it as is, and everyone could respect that. 

Absolutely! Everyone has the right to choose and use whatever label, or lack of, fits them, and to change labels as needed.

y2g

I'm a Kestin :3

Intergender was the first term that I read about so I'm kinda in the habit of referring to myself as such... but I like GenderQueer more than Androgyne. By definition I'm queer because I'm a female and am attracted to women, and GenderQueer because I do not subscribe to the normal concept of gender identity.

Plus, I also want to be a bit more 'out there' in how people view me. I want people to be confused when they see me, I want them to have to ask if I'm a boy or a girl and for me to not tell them XD Gender->-bleeped-<-er is probably a more appropriate term in regards to that though...

I mostly just like to say I'm neither... then they can label you however they want in their head.

....and they will, and they will have that power, because they have been allowed that power, because you would have let them.

I'm in favor of renaming this section...that way, we can upset a whole new group of people, as the old ones are getting a bit repetitive.

OK, now that I have your attention...

As many have stated, WHAT we call ourselves, individually and as a group, tends to be a very personal thing.  For a large number of us, the best we can do is find a label we like that "mostly fits".

The NBGV name works very well as an umbrella term, and like KK said, it has a very medical-sounding ring to it.  Other terms that have been mentioned seem to have some baggage...still, NBGV or Non-Binary Gender Variant is not a term that "flows trippingly off the tongue" and thus may have some trouble being widely accepted.

Honestly, I don't really care what we name this section.  What is important to me, (and stated by several others), is that we keep the bonds we have formed and expand them to be even more inclusive.

So...solidarity my siblings and cousins.  If you fall outside the gender binaries, this place is for you.  If you fall within the gender binaries, you are more than welcome here too.  If neither of these groups apply to you, you are very welcome, but I would love to hear your story.

Blessings Be,

....Laurry 

what about calling ourselves 'peeps'? 

Quote from: Pica Pica on November 19, 2007, 02:01:30 PM
what about calling ourselves 'peeps'? 

<z runs away, screaming... noooooo!!!>

Quote from: Pica Pica on November 19, 2007, 02:01:30 PM
what about calling ourselves 'peeps'? 

NO!         


       I'm all for NBGV as the top term.  The term that we point outward to the world.  I think it is kind of clinical and also very descriptive.  It seems, to me, as the perfect term to put out there for explaining who we are.
       After that as personal choices, people can use anything.  Genderqueer for genderqueers, androgyne for androgynes, and so on.  I'm kind of partial to gender variant anyway.  But I can speak any of the languages except;

Quote from: Pica Pica on November 19, 2007, 02:01:30 PM
what about calling ourselves 'peeps'? 

NO!         

   

       

Quote from: Rebis on November 19, 2007, 06:27:06 PM
       I'm all for NBGV as the top term.  The term that we point outward to the world.  I think it is kind of clinical and also very descriptive.  It seems, to me, as the perfect term to put out there for explaining who we are.
       After that as personal choices, people can use anything.

NBGV sounds OK to me too. It works nicely as an umbrella term, and seems inclusive of everyone.

QuoteBut I can speak any of the languages except;

Quote from: Pica Pica on November 19, 2007, 02:01:30 PM
what about calling ourselves 'peeps'? 

NO!         

   

<z agrees>

y2g/z

Quote from: Rebis on November 19, 2007, 06:27:06 PM

       I'm all for NBGV as the top term.  The term that we point outward to the world.  I think it is kind of clinical and also very descriptive.  It seems, to me, as the perfect term to put out there for explaining who we are.
       After that as personal choices, people can use anything.  Genderqueer for genderqueers, androgyne for androgynes, and so on.  I'm kind of partial to gender variant anyway.

I've heard "gender variants" used in the professionally done movie "toilet training" (its about transgenders and the crap that happens to our people in public bathrooms, and push for gender neutral facilities), so it seems its well accepted.

Quote from: Kaimialana on November 19, 2007, 09:22:49 PM
I've heard "gender variants" used in the professionally done movie "toilet training" (its about transgenders and the crap that happens to our people in public bathrooms, and push for gender neutral facilities), so it seems its well accepted.

That's my favorite phrase.  I'm starting to cry (really).

Let's start a poll to vote yea or nae for NBGV!  I'll do it right now by gum!