I face a gym dillema myself.

I cannot use the men's locker room at the gym at work anymore.

I can't use the women's either just yet.

When I transition over at work, I am wondering if I should. Maybe I could, if I keep things packed up and out of sight. It's just so convenient to go there.

I have been weighing this, clothing choices and relationships and somehow increasing genital dysphoria, and I really am leaning to get SRS in a year or two. I feel it is more of a necessity now rather than just a nice to have. I never thought it would give me such discomfort but now it really is.

Quote from: iKate on May 07, 2015, 01:28:57 PM
I face a gym dillema myself.

I cannot use the men's locker room at the gym at work anymore.

I can't use the women's either just yet.

When I transition over at work, I am wondering if I should. Maybe I could, if I keep things packed up and out of sight. It's just so convenient to go there.

It probably wouldn't be a good idea to use the women's locker room at your work since everyone will know your history, and you haven't had any surgery yet. I wouldn't, just because I wouldn't want to make other women feel uncomfortable.

Quote from: kittenpower on May 07, 2015, 01:36:10 PM
It probably wouldn't be a good idea to use the women's locker room at your work since everyone will know your history, and you haven't had any surgery yet. I wouldn't, just because I wouldn't want to make other women feel uncomfortable.

On the flip side they wouldn't be able to do anything because it's workplace discrimination if they do. I don't run into any of my female coworkers down there and 1 or 2 of the male ones, who really don't tell me anything. Mostly it's people from other parts of the campus.

And none of them won't know whether or not I had SRS either because I made my switchover ambiguous - I told HR and my manager I am going for surgery related to my gender transition and after that I am going to go full time at work. My colleagues don't know what kind of surgery I am getting. People who put 2 and 2 together will think I'm getting SRS. And that is fine. However I may approach it with caution because I don't know if it's an open space or not. If it is then I'll likely not use it.

Hugs to Grace. I've had similar situations and now I can just read everyone's comments and feel better about it. Nowadays, at a sports practice team in a gym here, I just use a third room.

It's clear from my beard shadow, voice, and all that I've a malish body. But with the sports clothing and the ponytail, the HRT, etc, it is also quite clear that I've a pair of boobs and a suspiciously feminine and young looking face.

I really would not be comfortable changing in a guys' locker room, but it does not bother me that I do not go to the girls locker. It's probably not easy to understand or react to situation, for everyone, so I kind of decided to take it through the neutral path of least resistance.

Before that, I had a similar experience than Grace in a team with a few chauvinistic outspoken agressive guys. There are some very homo or transphobic people in this gym I think, but they do not go out of a normal's person way to annoy or evade me, I feel like anyone else, just in a bit of a weird gender situation that needs some uncommon measures. It's some kind of don't ask don't tell thing, a temporary solution I guess.

Ms Grace I have been researching if there's any legislation that will prevent such establishment from discriminating you. Unfortunately, I didn't find any.

Why don't you to move to Ontario, Canada as we have stricter laws preventing discrimination against gender expression and gender identity :0). If you're incident happened here, they will be in a very BIG trouble. So huge, the government can close them down.

Much Love,

April

So sorry to hear grace.... I really dont have anything to say that has't all ready been said. but I know you will rise above, huuggs

I've tried replying to this a couple of times but have lacked the ability to put my thoughts into words. So I asked my cis-female ex how she felt about it. None of this is specific to your situation Grace, which certainly has more than a whiff of bigotry to it.

I first asked her how she would feel in two different situations. The first was as follows: She goes into the changing rooms, and sees someone who is clearly male, doesn't pass and doesnt make much effort with presentations and mannerisms/voice, and older (so has been socialised as male for most of her life). I based this woman on several trans women I have met in my time. She said that she would feel uncomfortable changing in front of that person, because if they had spent so long living as a man, and gave out a male vibe, then she would feel a bit uneasy about them being then given free access to a space where she would be getting undressed in full view.

Then I presented the second situation: There is a woman in the changing rooms who she thinks may be trans. This woman passes quite well and acts and presents as female. She said she wouldn't have a problem with getting changed in front of that woman.

I asked for some clarification as to why she would feel differently in the two situations. She explained that if she encountered a trans woman who came across as a man then she would be worried what they were thinking as she was taking her clothes of. With the trans woman who came across as female she would feel a lot more relaxed as she would expect that woman to think like a woman. She acknowledged that this wasnt necessarily fair on people who didn't pass but she pointed out that growing up as a girl, then a woman, she has become used to men acting a certain way around her, that she has spent a lifetime being wary of male attention and that it's not something she can just switch off because of how that person identifies. She said she wouldn't complain or kick up a fuss in the first situation but would instead find a different part of the changing room out of view. She also didn't think that anyone would hurt her, just that she didnt want to be naked in front of someone she got strong male vibes from.

I asked her what the requirement she felt should be put in place that would make her feel comfortable, and she suggested the Gender Recognition Certificate that we have in the UK. This is available to anyone who has lived in their prefferred gender role for two years and has a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. It isn't dependent on surgery. She explained that if she knew that every trans woman in the changing rooms had this certificate she would feel at ease. She did also mention that some cis women make her feel uncomfortable in gym changing rooms.

I'm sorry this is a long post and if it upsets some people but I do think that we do have to consider the views of cis women in cases such as gym changing rooms. Toilets and changing cubicles in shops are a seperate matter because everyone has privacy there. My ex is a trans ally and has been hugely supportive to me so I know she doesn't have a transphobic bone in her body. I personally decided a long time ago that I wouldn't use a female gym changing room until after GRS (I exercise outside or at home instead) and that once I did I'd be careful to check the policy of the gym before joining. I just think it's a very complicated situation with a lot of factors involved and I'd rather move forward with caution to avoid making people feel uncomfortable.

As I said Grace this is a more general comment and not directed at your experience, because you would fall into the second situation anyway and have been the victim of transphobia and a policy that incorrectly judges gender by genitalia (what the hell do women do who can't afford surgery, or can't have it for medical reasons?).

Hope I haven't offended anyone with this but I thought it would be interesting to hear the views of a young cis woman.

I understand that some women would not feel comfortable around some trans women who don't pass. However, this is the systemic transphobia that we are trying to over come as a society. How a person pass is subjective and if we have to consider all factors in order to blend in and please other natal women then I would not consider that fair and that behaviour perpetuates the stigma that comes with being trans.

I'm lucky that I live in a country where I don't have to show a proof of who I am as a person. Our human rights law is clear, if I present myself as a woman I am a woman. Therefore, it is my basic human right to use the change room and washroom that is consistent to my gender.

Let's look at it this way, 10 cis woman were using the change room against a non passing trans coz they perceive him as a man - who do you think would be vulnerable at that moment.

I don't have much to say. However, enough is enough. Regardless if the trans person passes or not - they have all the right to use the facilities they need. To quote our human rights law in Canada "A trans person should not be required to use a separate washroom or change room because others express discomfort or transphobic attitudes, such as, "trans women are a threat to other women." Trans people themselves are at risk of harassment and violence when using these facilities.[120] Education and awareness will help dispel these kinds of stereotypes"

Quote from: Squircle on May 10, 2015, 11:07:03 AM
I've tried replying to this a couple of times but have lacked the ability to put my thoughts into words. So I asked my cis-female ex how she felt about it. None of this is specific to your situation Grace, which certainly has more than a whiff of bigotry to it.

I first asked her how she would feel in two different situations. The first was as follows: She goes into the changing rooms, and sees someone who is clearly male, doesn't pass and doesnt make much effort with presentations and mannerisms/voice, and older (so has been socialised as male for most of her life). I based this woman on several trans women I have met in my time. She said that she would feel uncomfortable changing in front of that person, because if they had spent so long living as a man, and gave out a male vibe, then she would feel a bit uneasy about them being then given free access to a space where she would be getting undressed in full view.

Then I presented the second situation: There is a woman in the changing rooms who she thinks may be trans. This woman passes quite well and acts and presents as female. She said she wouldn't have a problem with getting changed in front of that woman.

I asked for some clarification as to why she would feel differently in the two situations. She explained that if she encountered a trans woman who came across as a man then she would be worried what they were thinking as she was taking her clothes of. With the trans woman who came across as female she would feel a lot more relaxed as she would expect that woman to think like a woman. She acknowledged that this wasnt necessarily fair on people who didn't pass but she pointed out that growing up as a girl, then a woman, she has become used to men acting a certain way around her, that she has spent a lifetime being wary of male attention and that it's not something she can just switch off because of how that person identifies. She said she wouldn't complain or kick up a fuss in the first situation but would instead find a different part of the changing room out of view. She also didn't think that anyone would hurt her, just that she didnt want to be naked in front of someone she got strong male vibes from.

I asked her what the requirement she felt should be put in place that would make her feel comfortable, and she suggested the Gender Recognition Certificate that we have in the UK. This is available to anyone who has lived in their prefferred gender role for two years and has a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. It isn't dependent on surgery. She explained that if she knew that every trans woman in the changing rooms had this certificate she would feel at ease. She did also mention that some cis women make her feel uncomfortable in gym changing rooms.

I'm sorry this is a long post and if it upsets some people but I do think that we do have to consider the views of cis women in cases such as gym changing rooms. Toilets and changing cubicles in shops are a seperate matter because everyone has privacy there. My ex is a trans ally and has been hugely supportive to me so I know she doesn't have a transphobic bone in her body. I personally decided a long time ago that I wouldn't use a female gym changing room until after GRS (I exercise outside or at home instead) and that once I did I'd be careful to check the policy of the gym before joining. I just think it's a very complicated situation with a lot of factors involved and I'd rather move forward with caution to avoid making people feel uncomfortable.

As I said Grace this is a more general comment and not directed at your experience, because you would fall into the second situation anyway and have been the victim of transphobia and a policy that incorrectly judges gender by genitalia (what the hell do women do who can't afford surgery, or can't have it for medical reasons?).

Hope I haven't offended anyone with this but I thought it would be interesting to hear the views of a young cis woman.

Quote from: Squircle on May 10, 2015, 11:07:03 AM
I asked her what the requirement she felt should be put in place that would make her feel comfortable, and she suggested the Gender Recognition Certificate that we have in the UK. This is available to anyone who has lived in their prefferred gender role for two years and has a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Squircle, I thought your scenario was interesting, and thought provoking. Thank you for posting.

However, I HATE the idea of cisgender people deciding whether or not I'm entitled to a certificate based on how long I've lived according to their standards of my gender role and what a cisgender doctor thinks my diagnosis is. It's patronizing and paternalistic. Transgender people are capable of figuring out what gender they are. My gender is not subject to anyone else's comfort level or arbitrary standards.

I still have a vagina so by their line of reasoning, I can sign up, right?    I am sure the lifting ladies will welcome me into their herd, with my leg hair and buzz cut.

Sorry you had to go through that Grace. Sounds like you will have a better experience elsewhere. I know Dee mentioned it, and I go to one as well - do they have Planet Fitness in Australia? They've been great for me.

Is there any reason we can't name the business here? I know the gym is one of those places that a lot of us feel apprehensive about, and I personally spent a lot of time googling mine and the word transgender to see if there was anything I needed to be nervous about. It would save future ladies a lot of time and potential negative experiences if we could tell them which gym you had this experience at.

Everyone lets keep this civil we don't have to agree with a person's post  I know many of us detest the idea of some standard CIS woman place on us in woman's only spaces, but regardless of that we can still support Grace considering what she went through which is the purpose of this thread which is also why I nicely ask that we stay on topic too. This doesn't need to result in us bickering over what CIS people do. Thanks

I think in Grace's case she presents female and passes well. Unfortunately something tipped them off and she was read. Could be anything from voice to the employees looking at her ID (I'm not sure of the status of her ID). I get clocked by three things - voice, shadow and credit card/ID. It happens less because I can get by with my voice and my shadow is less thanks to laser. The card/ID stuff now just confuses people so I use apple pay where my name does not get revealed.

Quote from: Mariah2014 on May 10, 2015, 01:24:34 PM
Everyone lets keep this civil we don't have to agree with a person's post  I know many of us detest the idea of some standard CIS woman place on us in woman's only spaces, but regardless of that we can still support Grace considering what she went through which is the purpose of this thread which is also why I nicely ask that we stay on topic too. This doesn't need to result in us bickering over what CIS people do. Thanks

My apologies; I didn't mean to take it off topic and I didn't mean to cause offence, I was just trying to present how others may feel about it.

Grace I hope you are feeling better and I'm sorry you had to go through all of that, I have a lot of repect for you and please don't think I was suggesting you don't pass, because you do, my post was in no way an attack on you

Thank you for your thoughtful response Squircle. A lot of what you discuss has been on my mind since Thursday. A lot of cis attitude seems to boil down to the fact that they see someone who is trans as being intrinsically the gender they were assigned as not the one they identify as, regardless of how well they pass, how long they have been on HRT, or whether they are pre/non/post op.

As trans people we know we have identified as our preferred gender for a lot, lot longer than we have been on hormones or seeing a counsellor (usually our whole life). As most of us have experienced though, being on HRT does change aspects of how we approach life and people. Being trans usually means being forced and socialised into gender roles that are alien and anathema to us, but that doesn't mean we don't pick a lot of it up along the way and bring it with us when we do come to transition; HRT may take the edge off that but we have still lost many years of sociological and biological experiences (good and bad) that can make it a challenge to fully relate with and to our cis siblings.

I understand that for the majority of cis and genetic women they have had the threat of male sexual predatory behaviour hanging over them all their life, some of them have been raped and/or treated in a sexual degrading way (often by family members) and often more than once, most if not all have been the target of harassment the moment they walk out the door....they feel threatened and oppressed by men at home and outside home. So a private space for women to just be themself is a great thing. It was largely why I sought out this gym.

When it comes to transwomen being in that private space, no matter how well they pass or how well they behave, genetic women are probably in many cases thinking "that is a man" and those fears about men are immediately there. I have a lot of sympathy for that fear, and having been on the receiving end of some scary male behaviour towards me I also have a lot of empathy. But I don't have any sympathy for the underpinning belief that we are somehow still essentially male because our birth biology doesn't match our brains, that we are somehow at best a second class of woman who needs a Proof of Vadge badge to access cis gender privileged areas.

I must admit that in approaching this gym I had hoped I would pass well enough for it not to be an issue, apparently for a few women they doubted my "authenticity" the moment they saw me, spoke to management and then some obscure "needs a vagina to be a woman" policy was brought to bear (and thanks for your comment ftmmax, that has been going through my mind about how welcome pre/non op trans guys would be!). I say obscure because I have found no evidence of it and it certainly isn't in their contract.

At the heart of the matter is lack of awareness, understanding and compassion of and for the trans experience. The second they saw me as trans they essentially defined me as "really a man" and we all know that's exactly how a lot of people think. They then told me they needed proof I was "really a woman", a deeply humiliating and upsetting experience.

So yeah, what to do? I have a few ideas but they will have to wait for another post.

Quote from: kittenpower on May 07, 2015, 01:36:10 PM
It probably wouldn't be a good idea to use the women's locker room at your work since everyone will know your history, and you haven't had any surgery yet. I wouldn't, just because I wouldn't want to make other women feel uncomfortable.

Glad someone else agrees with me that just like we feel uncomfortable, others would feel uncomfortable too. Sometimes we try to push our ideaology on people. I say let anyone think what they want as long as they respect you. But remember some people aren't going to accept trans and thats fine as long as they give you the proper respect.

That's a really excellent and considered post Grace. I agree with every word. My ex's views are informed by a lifetime of being treated as a sexual object by men from a young age; she's a very pretty girl who went through puberty early. She certainly accepts me as a woman and any trans women she has met through me.

Regarding your specific experience in the gym, I wouldn't be too hard on yourself for being clocked, it would be an extreme test of anyone's ability to pass and I admire your courage. It really could have been anything. But regardless the way the members reacted to you wasn't the result of unease caused by female experiences of men, it was downright transphobia. The fact they invented some new rule to challenge you proves it. Perhaps they weren't sure and wanted to see how you'd react to the question.

I do wonder what would have happened though if you had been 1) able to prove that you'd had surgery and 2) willing to prove that you'd had surgery (because I certainly wouldn't have been). Would those women have then backed down? Or would you have been hounded out over time? I get the feeling that even if a long standing member had suddenly been outed as trans after years without issue they would still have a problem with her and want her out.

Regarding ftmmax's post, it's incredible how non of the anti trans brigade ever consider trans men and how their presence in a female changing room would go down.

I hope you find somewhere more accepting and ultimately safe.

I don't think using a change room or a washroom consistent to one's gender is pushing someones ideology to another. It is a basic human right that should be available to all of us pre-op or post op.

Pushing an idea that a pre-op woman should not use a facility because some people know her history is the social cancer that should be treated.

What would someone feel if I tell them, you can't use my facility coz you have HIV, Cancer or Hepatitis.

Quote from: carmenkate on May 10, 2015, 05:56:20 PM
I don't think using a change room or a washroom consistent to one's gender is pushing someones ideology to another. It is a basic human right that should be available to all of us pre-op or post op.

Pushing an idea that a pre-op woman should not use a facility because some people know her history is the social cancer that should be treated.

What would someone feel if I tell them, you can't use my facility coz you have HIV, Cancer or Hepatitis.

I agree with April here.

And it's not like Grace wasn't making a serious effort... She seems to pass most of the time. They're going to exclude her because she hasn't corrected her birth defect yet? Do people also think it's right to discriminate against people who were born with disabilities? I don't think I could condone such behavior.

She is a woman, period. Her mindset and identity is female. Period! I often say that I hate the term "trans woman" because it makes us seem like we are not "real"
women. Rather, I like the term that my HRT clinic uses - women of transgender experience. We are women, just via a different path.

I would love to see these people try to deal with a friend of mine. The last time I talked to him a couple of years ago (I've been super-busy, yikes), he was about a decade on T and still hadn't changed his legal name or gender marker.

They would be pretty damned embarrassed to ask whether he has documentation of "the surgery" and get his answer. I suppose they would then ask for a birth certificate, but as you all know, California birth certificates can be completely changed. What would they do then? Ask him to drop his trousers?

I'd bet that, if it became public (or known perhaps better) that there are many female clients who work out there who would also take their business elsewhere. Such a thing could be hurtful to the business.