No, not me. I was not clocked, at least not here.

But... read on.

I was ordering fast food and was waiting for my order (fries as usual take time to prepare). Then this person walks in. I only see this person from the side and they had long-ish hair but the face looked boy-ish. Then I thought to myself, "OH CRAP. Now two trans girls in the store, they're gonna clock us both!"

Then they open their mouth and turns their head to say, "you forgot to give me some ketchup, I asked for ketchup at the drive thru." Total female voice. Wait, what? She turns a bit in my direction. Looks TOTALLY like a girl.

So yeah, I apparently clocked a cis woman. It feels weird but now I kinda know how people feel when they clock us.

there's a possibility she had the voice surgery, those people sound very cis

Its like you're saying that a trans woman can't have a female appearing face and female sounding voice.

Quote from: marsh monster on May 10, 2015, 06:07:56 PM
Its like you're saying that a trans woman can't have a female appearing face and female sounding voice.

I've met plenty of transwomen IRL that you would never clock.   Looks, voice, everything about them screams "cis".  I've also seen my cis wife called "sir" to her face several times.

Quote from: marsh monster on May 10, 2015, 06:07:56 PM
Its like you're saying that a trans woman can't have a female appearing face and female sounding voice.

I'm saying that you don't really know. That I think is a good thing. Often we think we don't pass and we look at ourselves and think that we would get clocked when in fact the fear is overblown. Yes there are a lot of us who do get clocked (myself included) but we just need to go out there and be ourselves because people will read us anyway, right or wrong.

Quote from: stephaniec on May 10, 2015, 06:03:37 PM
there's a possibility she had the voice surgery, those people sound very cis

I think that a lot of trained voices sound pretty darned good too.

Quote from: iKate on May 10, 2015, 07:28:31 PM
I'm saying that you don't really know. That I think is a good thing. Often we think we don't pass and we look at ourselves and think that we would get clocked when in fact the fear is overblown. Yes there are a lot of us who do get clocked (myself included) but we just need to go out there and be ourselves because people will read us anyway, right or wrong.

^^ Society is going to tell you if you pass or not, like it or not.

You want a real test if you pass? One could take their floral dress and makeup off, wear gender neutral clothes and tie your long hair back (if applicible).

Approach various staffed womens dressing rooms or exclusively women designated spaces.

You'll know if you pass or not.

Quote from: Evelyn K on May 10, 2015, 07:54:19 PM
^^ Society is going to tell you if you pass or not, like it or not.

You want a real test if you pass? One could take their floral dress and makeup off, wear gender neutral clothes and tie your long hair back (if applicible).

Approach various staffed womens dressing rooms or exclusively women designated spaces.

You'll know if you pass or not.

I don't even think that's a real test because I routinely do this (I rarely wear makeup for everyday things and I wear plain colored t shirts and loose fitting jeans from Costco) and nobody bats an eye, I'm referred to with female pronouns and I know I sometimes don't pass.

In fact it kind of bothers me because I suspect some people read me and are simply being nice. I just never know if I will encounter someone who will make a comment.

The only thing that gives me away lately is voice but I've kind of managed to get my voice to a borderline passable sounding voice and it seems to work. Or maybe people are just being nice.

Quote from: iKate on May 10, 2015, 09:20:19 PM
I don't even think that's a real test because I routinely do this (I rarely wear makeup for everyday things and I wear plain colored t shirts and loose fitting jeans from Costco) and nobody bats an eye, I'm referred to with female pronouns and I know I sometimes don't pass.

In fact it kind of bothers me because I suspect some people read me and are simply being nice. I just never know if I will encounter someone who will make a comment.

The only thing that gives me away lately is voice but I've kind of managed to get my voice to a borderline passable sounding voice and it seems to work. Or maybe people are just being nice.

^^^ Congrats!

If you are being gendered correctly overall while presenting androgynously then you know you're passing presenting female. And that alone is a hard achievement.

Throw on the women's attire, accessories and makeup to make yourself not only passing - but perhaps even beautiful.

The same thing happened to me the other day at the gym. I was SO excited to see another trans woman in the locker room, and even considered discreetly saying something to her about it - until I realized she was cis.

As I came to realize who I am, I found myself looking at how cis woman appear and have discovered that's it's often hard to tell either way.
I know that I don't pass at all yet. I'm only on spiro while I try to get my bp down so I can start e. No laser or electrolysis yet so I'm pretty obvious as far as I'm concerned.
That being said, I attended my first transgender support group last night and for some of the woman there, I couldn't tell if they were SO's or transgender.
I'm starting to think that when I get my beard removed, and train my voice, the rest is attitude.
I'm thinking of asking a cis woman I know about splitting the cost of a tria as she has to shave almost daily.
There are variations and I think outing ourselves is the bigger problem.
Peace.



Ella

one two three o-clock, four o-clock rock ...

Quote from: Jill F on May 10, 2015, 06:17:31 PM
I've met plenty of transwomen IRL that you would never clock.   Looks, voice, everything about them screams "cis".  I've also seen my cis wife called "sir" to her face several times.

I think that would seriously offend me.
As a point of interest though, there are two Cis  females in the road I live on that the only distinguishing feature are boobs, otherwise you would seriously not have any idea as to male or female, so sometimes I feel it really only matters to the individual themselves.

Quote from: Jill F on May 10, 2015, 06:17:31 PM
I've met plenty of transwomen IRL that you would never clock.   Looks, voice, everything about them screams "cis".  I've also seen my cis wife called "sir" to her face several times.

That I've seen happen (never to my wife though).

One of the things that we learn to do is roll with it. If you acknowledge being clocked you'll simply confirm what they may have just suspected.

Don't worry about it.  I have no radar for transgender guys at all - none.  Unless they have one of the couple stereotypical "trans guy haircuts," I'll see them as cisgender, or misgender them and think they're lesbians.  I can pretty much always "clock" women but I think that's because I am much more used to women (trans and cis) than guys - also, for whatever reason, transgender women *usually* acknowledge me, and guys never acknowledge each other (it's like being in a bathroom or something ).  So yeah, it's actually super easy to not know, and we all have different senses for different aspects of people.

Quote from: stephaniec on May 10, 2015, 06:03:37 PM
there's a possibility she had the voice surgery, those people sound very cis

True, but that doesn't necessarily mean they sound better. 

*scampers off until more random positivity needs interjection elsewhere...*

A couple months ago I clocked a transwoman with all the classic signs...large hands, low voice, man-ish face, 6' tall.  And that's when I realized that she was pregnant.  Woops!  Not trans at all.

Women definitely come in all shapes and sizes.  And I think that we can learn from the cis women who get read as male.  I've seen it happen a couple times, and they just correct the other person for being stupid.  If they took it personally, they definitely didn't show it.  But something like that can throw us into a spiraling depression for a week because we take it too personally.

Quote from: iKate on May 10, 2015, 07:28:31 PM
I'm saying that you don't really know. That I think is a good thing. Often we think we don't pass and we look at ourselves and think that we would get clocked when in fact the fear is overblown. Yes there are a lot of us who do get clocked (myself included) but we just need to go out there and be ourselves because people will read us anyway, right or wrong.

My issue is that you seemed to be saying that she looked and sounded too genuine to be trans. Just something that stuck out to me. 

Quote from: katiej on May 11, 2015, 10:56:46 AM
A couple months ago I clocked a transwoman with all the classic signs...large hands, low voice, man-ish face, 6' tall.  And that's when I realized that she was pregnant.  Woops!  Not trans at all.

Women definitely come in all shapes and sizes.  And I think that we can learn from the cis women who get read as male.  I've seen it happen a couple times, and they just correct the other person for being stupid.  If they took it personally, they definitely didn't show it.  But something like that can throw us into a spiraling depression for a week because we take it too personally.

The un-funny thing about all this is, if you take an equal cross-section of the worlds females both cis and trans, you'll find the frequency of cis females being read as male is exponentially smaller than the frequency of transwomen being read as male.

So I don't see how using the rare misgendered cis women as 'our' problematic example somehow mitigates an overtly trans related dilemma.

It's an uphill battle for the majority of us.

Quote from: marsh monster on May 11, 2015, 11:08:01 AM
My issue is that you seemed to be saying that she looked and sounded too genuine to be trans. Just something that stuck out to me.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that when she walked in my mind automaticallyread  "dude" (and not even trans who didn't pass) and then she spoke and turned her head so I could see her better and my mind automatically gendered her F.

Quote from: Evelyn K on May 10, 2015, 07:54:19 PM
^^ Society is going to tell you if you pass or not, like it or not.

You want a real test if you pass? One could take their floral dress and makeup off, wear gender neutral clothes and tie your long hair back (if applicible).

Approach various staffed womens dressing rooms or exclusively women designated spaces.

You'll know if you pass or not.

Ironically, the more masculine I dress, the more I'm read as female!