I am a post-op trans woman. I am very happy with my SRS results. However, there are still people who suspect about my past. Not because of my genitalia, of course, but because of some facial traits that are still manly, despite FFS. So, I have noticed something very interesting.


I think 90% of clocking is appearance, no matter what people say. Appearance meaning face, hair, body, the way you walk etc. However, there is also a behavioral component. I have experimented this: when I act aloof, detached, polite but cold, I pass WAY better than when I am outgoing and down to earth. I have an explanation for this


I think, first and foremost, transsexuals are eager to please, or the act too flirtatiously. So, in my case, I don't flirt anymore, I am cold, and people are surprised, if they suspect. They unconsciously think "Wait, she is a transsexual but she is not eager to please us? She is so aloof?"

he other reason is that I might put a wall around me and people perceive it, subconsciously, and they don't even have the time to scrutinize me. Unfortunately, I HAVE to do this. I have to protect myself. I used to be a much nicer person but was back stabbed. People didn't appreciate me for how nice, gentle, good hearted I was. All they worried about was my hands, if I had a nose job etc. They need to rationalize the fact that I didn't fool them. Now, my coping mechanism is being cold

PS: JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE IS A GENETIC WOMAN, IT DOESN'T MEAN SHE IS A FASHION GURU. SHE CAN BE A FASHION MISTAKE. ALSO, GENETIC WOMEN CAN GET AWAY WITH CLOTHES THAT ARE FLATTERING ON THEM, BUT NOT ON SOMEONE WHO WENT THROUGH MALE PUBERTY

I've no experience with trying to pass, but I've lived with walls around me for a very long time. I didn't do it on purpose so I've no idea how long its been, but long.

I'm still doing it, and planning to continue, but I beginning to think I'm paying a high price in doing so. I kind of wish I'd gone down a different path now, but I'm kind of stuck.

I can't say you're wrong in what you're doing, but are you sure there's no other way?

Quote from: teresita on May 17, 2015, 04:41:10 AM
... However, there is also a behavioral component. I have experimented this: when I act aloof, detached, polite but cold, I pass WAY better than when I am outgoing and down to earth.

I think you've touched on something here, but I take it in a different direction.

People stand out when they are anxious or uncomfortable. It's not for any one reason that we can detect discomfort in other people, it is all of the subtle non-verbal components combined in a glance.

When a person is carrying around those kind of feelings, it draws attention to them, because it can be detected easily.
---

It is the drawing of attention to oneself that brings questions. Why is the person like this? We start looking hard at the person to figure it out. That's also our nature.

Now if you look closely enough anyone, you can reveal a lot of their secrets. It's a lot easier to be 'clocked' when somebody is paying that close attention.
---

So, alternatively, if one is aloof - but more than that - comfortable and not on edge, they don't draw attention to themselves, and pass through the world without scrutiny.

That's my take on it.

I dunno - works the other way around for me. I was quite aloof as a dude and am generally happier and friendlier now and that works for me.

I have to admit I have also gone the other way. It takes ages to do the groceries as so many people want to stop for a chat.

Does that mean I pass? Who cares!

This is the same topic I brought up in my last therapy session. I have noticed a significant difference in my personality after starting HRT. I was very friendly prior to transition. However, I noticed lately that I am more guarded - I talk less and more aloof than what I used to. So I asked my therapist if I was depressed and she completely said NO I wasn't. She then acknowledges that transition is a huge step and some people react to it differently.

But through therapy, I was able to find the root cause of this change and it has been my companion for a little while now and it is Shame/Guilt. We talked about it and it stems from me wanting to please people and the fact that it goes against what's considered status quo that I feel this way ugh!

I am still a work in progress and hopefully through continuos therapy and self work that I can over come this.

Hope I can win it!

Love,

April

I lived over seas for a significant part of my time in the military and I learned early on that I easily passed as a local up and to the point where I talked or tried to speak the language then everyone knew I was from out of town.   

I think this is the same for passing as a woman most of us have had 20 or more years learning to pass as men so that even when we start to look the part we are still fumbling with the verbal/tonal/mannerism part and by acting aloof or professional we pass better because that's a common trait shared between men and women so we know how to act that way and pass. 

I'm sorry that you've suffered enough to be forced to live like this, since it sounds like it's contrary to your natural inclinations.

Personally, I found that HRT made me even more emotional and made me want to reach out to people. I'm not flirtatious or sexy about it, but I do like chatting warmly for a minute and that sort of thing (like when the checkout clerk tells me his car was stolen and I make sympathetic noises). Even in New England withdrawn/cold women are seen as rude and off-putting, too, so there's that. My wife hates the presumption that being polite but not overly warm is both normal for a masculine person and rude for a feminine one... anyway.

It does sound like you live somewhere that people make a game out of trying to clock a trans person, or something? Because 99% of the time nobody is trying to guess my past or my gender anymore, which makes things easy in terms of "hiding" that (I'm not exactly trying to hide it, really, but the checkout clerk doesn't want me to make a public service announcement any more than I want to make it.

I agree Trans women get confused when they pass physically and still get clocked you have to understand that your mannerisms will also get you clocked

the way you walk,sit,eat,etc will get you clocked passing 100% comes down to studying women and following what they do to the T

I've learned this and have never been clocked.

I've had women come up to me and tell me about how they got there uterus removed no joke and thats not something you share with a male lol.

Thanks everyone for the responses. Cindy, I am happy that you do not care if you pass or not. I applaud you. But that is not what I was discussing. I personally care. I want to pass, reasonably. I am sick and tired of having to explain to people. I am sick and tired of sharing my past with someone I considered friend to find out I have been outed. I am sick and tired of the merciless gossip a trans woman is subject to. I have seen this with my eyes not once, twice but hundreds of times, even in other friends' lives (who have transitioned). So, yes, I want to pass. I respect those who don't want to, but I want, and nobody is trying to convince me otherwise.

That being said, I personally like it more being aloof and detached. I really do. I have to disagree with the person who said that being friendly, warm and comfortable in your skin, make people accept you at face value and they will scrutinize you less. First of all, how can someone be comfortable and happy with who they are when they have been brainwashed, throughout their whole life, that they are defective, wrong and they should be a man? Plus, most trans people stand out, one way or another, for physical traits. Yes, the way you talk, eat etc is important, but you can have the best mannerism in the world, if you have a masculine built, or if you have a manly face, no mannerism, no amount of confidence will get you to passing.

I am disconcerted when I read other trans women telling me that I shouldn't want to pass. Who wants to be pointed out and laughed at?

Also, some people will pretend to not have clocked you... will act very nice in front of you, then, what do they say behind our back? I am not being paranoid. I have had women I considered "friends" ask me if I had a tampon, or if I was on a period... and then, oh, you should see what I found out they were saying behind my back. So, saying that one has never been clocked can be far fetched.

Teresita, I totally agree with you. However, you must also understand that we cannot control our environment i.e. people clocking us etch.

I'm of the opinion that you just make a better version of yourself everyday. Do your best in learning whatever it is for you to socially integrate yourself. However, the pull of perfection is always there but one must stand back and say is perfection better than living.

Stay beautiful!

April

Quote from: teresita on May 17, 2015, 12:00:10 PM
Thanks everyone for the responses. Cindy, I am happy that you do not care if you pass or not. I applaud you. But that is not what I was discussing. I personally care. I want to pass, reasonably. I am sick and tired of having to explain to people. I am sick and tired of sharing my past with someone I considered friend to find out I have been outed. I am sick and tired of the merciless gossip a trans woman is subject to. I have seen this with my eyes not once, twice but hundreds of times, even in other friends' lives (who have transitioned). So, yes, I want to pass. I respect those who don't want to, but I want, and nobody is trying to convince me otherwise.

That being said, I personally like it more being aloof and detached. I really do. I have to disagree with the person who said that being friendly, warm and comfortable in your skin, make people accept you at face value and they will scrutinize you less. First of all, how can someone be comfortable and happy with who they are when they have been brainwashed, throughout their whole life, that they are defective, wrong and they should be a man? Plus, most trans people stand out, one way or another, for physical traits. Yes, the way you talk, eat etc is important, but you can have the best mannerism in the world, if you have a masculine built, or if you have a manly face, no mannerism, no amount of confidence will get you to passing.

I am disconcerted when I read other trans women telling me that I shouldn't want to pass. Who wants to be pointed out and laughed at?

Also, some people will pretend to not have clocked you... will act very nice in front of you, then, what do they say behind our back? I am not being paranoid. I have had women I considered "friends" ask me if I had a tampon, or if I was on a period... and then, oh, you should see what I found out they were saying behind my back. So, saying that one has never been clocked can be far fetched.

Building a wall around yourself can be super stifling and lonely. I don't think it's a healthy behavior. I can say this cause I am doing everything I can to tear mine down from before I transitioned. Don't let one or two( or even more) people who stabbed you back prevent you from living a full life.

Building a wall is worse then being clocked. I know more happy and beautiful people who are visibly trans, then I know of happy people who are ridiculously guarded. Sometimes you have to be vulnerable. It's hard to allow yourself to be, but there isn't a better feeling then to just break free and enjoy life. Yea you might get hurt every now and then, It's practically guaranteed no matter what ur life is like, but I think being free of a wall is worth all of the pain and betrayal you will receive. Living in a wall is not really living.



This tattoo is from the wall by Pink Floyd. It is symbolic of how I felt when I built a wall around myself. Isolated, lonely, anxious, and upset.  With self love and confidence I am slowly tearing it down.

I hope my words can encourage you to do the same.

carmenkate, exactly! We cannot control other people perception of us. We can't control how nice or obnoxious they will be once they find out we are trans. However, we MUST make any possible attempt to improve the quality of our lives and be happy. For some people, being happy means being openly trans. For me, being happy is navigate the world unbothered, without giving explanations and without answering intrusive questions. So, there is only so much I can do, but I'll be damned sure to do anything in my power before throwing the towel and before giving up. I will, of course, change what I can change and accept what I cannot change. I do believe that there are certain things I can do to minimize the risk of being hurt.

Amber: thank you so much for wearing your heart on your sleeve. I admire you. However, I must say that I disagree with you, respectfully. My therapists, in the past, told me the same thing, i.e. that being so guarded was not healthy and that I had to be with people without caring how they perceive me or if they say I am a man, behind my back. However, this approach did NOT work for me. Believe it or not, I am a MUCH happier person when I am by myself or around animals (I am an animal lover). The very FEW people I trust live very far away from me, but we speak every day via Skype.

So, I do not understand why people do not believe that certain individuals, like me, are happier when alone. Plus, Amber, you say that you know happy people who are visibly trans. What do we know? I knew two people who were happy and positive and smiley and they were visibly trans. They committed suicide. Both of them. We can think they are happy, but we do not know how happy they are when the day ends and they are in their room, by themselves.

Quote from: teresita on May 17, 2015, 12:00:10 PM
Thanks everyone for the responses. Cindy, I am happy that you do not care if you pass or not. I applaud you. But that is not what I was discussing. I personally care. I want to pass, reasonably. I am sick and tired of having to explain to people. I am sick and tired of sharing my past with someone I considered friend to find out I have been outed. I am sick and tired of the merciless gossip a trans woman is subject to. I have seen this with my eyes not once, twice but hundreds of times, even in other friends' lives (who have transitioned). So, yes, I want to pass. I respect those who don't want to, but I want, and nobody is trying to convince me otherwise.

That being said, I personally like it more being aloof and detached. I really do. I have to disagree with the person who said that being friendly, warm and comfortable in your skin, make people accept you at face value and they will scrutinize you less. First of all, how can someone be comfortable and happy with who they are when they have been brainwashed, throughout their whole life, that they are defective, wrong and they should be a man? Plus, most trans people stand out, one way or another, for physical traits. Yes, the way you talk, eat etc is important, but you can have the best mannerism in the world, if you have a masculine built, or if you have a manly face, no mannerism, no amount of confidence will get you to passing.

I am disconcerted when I read other trans women telling me that I shouldn't want to pass. Who wants to be pointed out and laughed at?

Also, some people will pretend to not have clocked you... will act very nice in front of you, then, what do they say behind our back? I am not being paranoid. I have had women I considered "friends" ask me if I had a tampon, or if I was on a period... and then, oh, you should see what I found out they were saying behind my back. So, saying that one has never been clocked can be far fetched.

I'm kind of aloof I guess.

I've basically gotten rid of "friendships" that result in gossip. I killed off my facebook to preempt it as well. I know once I go full time there will be some potential for gossip.

As for my history I don't explain anything. Then again I really don't have to correct people about gender pronouns as long as I'm presenting female and when presenting male (at work mostly) I don't correct people because no one knows my story, why my hair is long, why I wear baggy clothes etc. So I'm in a good place.

Some people can be openly flag waving trans, that's awesome. That's not me. Same as you probably. I'm not going to hide it from people but I'm not shouting it from the rooftops either.

This is all very interesting... yeah... I think ciswomen actually tend to carry that aloofness, so perhaps it is part of passing then in a sense?

yes, ever, you hit the nail!

I think the key is being relaxed and confident.  If that means being aloof do it.  For me, it is looking people in the eye, smiling, speaking, just like my mother and sister did.  A cis woman friend told me before I did anything that I was socialized like a woman.  What was hard for me was acting like a man.


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Quote from: Alysinspace on May 17, 2015, 10:40:47 AM
... you have to understand that your mannerisms will also get you clocked ... the way you walk,sit,eat,etc will get you clocked ...

Very true.

I still have a little way to go before I 'pass', but I have come a *long* way with how I carry myself in general.

I get male failed all the time now ... such an odd experience! :~o

Quote from: amber roskamp on May 17, 2015, 01:42:59 PM
Building a wall around yourself can be super stifling and lonely. I don't think it's a healthy behavior. I can say this cause I am doing everything I can to tear mine down from before I transitioned. Don't let one or two( or even more) people who stabbed you back prevent you from living a full life.

Building a wall is worse then being clocked. I know more happy and beautiful people who are visibly trans, then I know of happy people who are ridiculously guarded. Sometimes you have to be vulnerable. It's hard to allow yourself to be, but there isn't a better feeling then to just break free and enjoy life. Yea you might get hurt every now and then, It's practically guaranteed no matter what ur life is like, but I think being free of a wall is worth all of the pain and betrayal you will receive. Living in a wall is not really living.



This tattoo is from the wall by Pink Floyd. It is symbolic of how I felt when I built a wall around myself. Isolated, lonely, anxious, and upset.  With self love and confidence I am slowly tearing it down.

I hope my words can encourage you to do the same.

Amber, you made my night with the Pink Floyd tattoo... 

After all, it's not easy banging your heart against some mad bugger's wall...

I got nothing to back on this, but I think its about being natural/organic/not a joke. People expect to see make up/sexualized beings as trans people....

Look at Lady Gaga, she was flamboyant so people thought she was trans.

When I transistion... its about the natural make up look, sensible outfits... what would a pretty secretary dress like...

I think coming across aloof wouldnt make me more passable... but just rude.

My personality in the real world is sweetness with a btch streak.... "you look young for your age.. *smiles*",

"Why the hell did he bother us?"

"Hes worthless", "Hes a failure"...


Its like pure evil and kindness combine. Regina George type personality.