In 1944, John von Neumann and Oskar Morgenstern wrote a book called Theory of Games and Economic Behavior, which opened the study of modern game theory.

As you may know, game theory is, ironically, one of the most serious of all subjects.

It also covers a huge amount of disciplines; it covers the study of economics, business, finance, psychology, sociology, law, politics, management, public policy and administration, etc., etc., etc.  in short, Game Theory covers virtually all aspects of civilization, both on a macro scale, i.e., nations and states, and on a micro scale, i.e., the decisions of individual persons.

The reason i have posted this in the Philosophy forum is because there is a basic disclaimer about game theory to the effect that this theory only works if all players in the game are actually doing everything they can to win. which is why Game Theory doesn't apply to me.  i don't always make the best decisions! even though i can often see that what i could do vs. what i am doing would be more helpful to my health, well-being, career, what have you (you name it), i still have a tendency to slack off and be so lazy as to accomplish nothing and then i blame it, always, on being depressed. the mess and clutter in my bedroom is because i was too depressed to tidy up, as i had intended. i forgot to floss yesterday because i was too depressed. trust me when i say this list could literally go on for days, and backward in time for decades.

i tried to get my life together by being religious, but i gave it up because i felt it was untrue to my core beliefs. then i studied philosophy and found many of its greatest proponents to be terribly depressing. and how can Game Theory help me if i keep refusing to join in the game? i know, ultimately, that they are talking about willpower, which i guess, i don't have much of. it is one small word that is difficult to get a handle on.

-ell

I have a theory that we are not all meant to "be all that we can be".

     I'm a slacker too, but I've learned it's not a bad thing.  As long as I don't allow those tendencies to overwhelm my life chores.

     I can't even conceive of trying to win a game.  The only time I would put effort into winning is as a lark and even then, I won't waste my energy by putting everything into it.

By gum, Ell.  You've convinced me.  Trying is for chumps.   

Quote from: ell on October 27, 2007, 10:08:45 PM

Quote from: Rebis on October 27, 2007, 09:53:36 PM
By gum, Ell.  You've convinced me.  Trying is for chumps.   

yeah, but the world is f**** up, Rebecca, and maybe people like you and me could make it a little better, if we could just get our sh*** together.

I'm trying.  I swear.

I'm trying, but I have my own goals, Sod the other goals.

Passion is the secret to a full life.

    I wasn't joking when I said I'm finally trying at making a useful contribution to the world.

    It occurred to me, however, that we (most of us) are just human.  I don't know if I could have made a true effort while in my lost years.  Our culture is not designed to provide many of us with a real and useful roadmap. In order for me to become useful, I really had to remain useless for a long time. I was not equipped to do any more than to feed myself and stay off of the streets.

   I do believe that you can lose too much energy worrying about filling all of your time being useful.  You can't be useful to anyone else or be at the top of your game if you don't pay some attention to your own needs.

Actually, game theory applies to you, but it's iterated so you learn from each mistake. Just remember, game theory models what exists in Nature, not the other way around, some models in game theory look good but don't even work on computers. And some work so elegantly that we're very lucky to hit upon them in our quest for knowledge. If you plan to study more game theory, I would suggest looking at the work of Hayek on Spontaneous Order, which gives a pretty good basis for some natural models found in game theory.

-- Brede

Quote from: Attis on November 22, 2007, 10:19:57 AM
Actually, game theory applies to you, but it's iterated so you learn from each mistake. Just remember, game theory models what exists in Nature, not the other way around, some models in game theory look good but don't even work on computers. And some work so elegantly that we're very lucky to hit upon them in our quest for knowledge. If you plan to study more game theory, I would suggest looking at the work of Hayek on Spontaneous Order, which gives a pretty good basis for some natural models found in game theory.

-- Brede

No, as a confirmed idiot, i just iterate my mistakes.

But i appreciate your thoughtful response, and i will check out Hayek. Thanks.

-ell

When I was in the psych ward for the first time it was really depressing! I felt like no one really cared! I wasnt sick mentally ..just confused as I had just been robbed of all my assets and thrown into a hospital because our health and police system here in Australia is corrupt! Anyway when I approached the head nurse and asked 'How do I get out of this place and succeed in life when the odds are stacked against me?'  She simply replied 'Its a game! You should play it to win!'

Quote from: Kirstie on November 27, 2007, 08:49:02 PM
When I was in the psych ward for the first time it was really depressing! I felt like no one really cared! I wasnt sick mentally ..just confused as I had just been robbed of all my assets and thrown into a hospital because our health and police system here in Australia is corrupt! Anyway when I approached the head nurse and asked 'How do I get out of this place and succeed in life when the odds are stacked against me?'  She simply replied 'Its a game! You should play it to win!'

and are you winning?

Quote from: ell on November 27, 2007, 08:25:55 PM

Quote from: Attis on November 22, 2007, 10:19:57 AM
Actually, game theory applies to you, but it's iterated so you learn from each mistake. Just remember, game theory models what exists in Nature, not the other way around, some models in game theory look good but don't even work on computers. And some work so elegantly that we're very lucky to hit upon them in our quest for knowledge. If you plan to study more game theory, I would suggest looking at the work of Hayek on Spontaneous Order, which gives a pretty good basis for some natural models found in game theory.

-- Brede

No, as a confirmed idiot, i just iterate my mistakes.

But i appreciate your thoughtful response, and i will check out Hayek. Thanks.

-ell

Everytime you claim to be an idiot, you are merely reinforcing a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's not worth it.

oh, sorry. i went off my meds today because of a liver 'incident' and i am such a wreck! i think i have just enough energy to crawl back to my bed...

Quote from: ell on November 28, 2007, 12:30:31 AM
oh, sorry. i went off my meds today because of a liver 'incident' and i am such a wreck! i think i have just enough energy to crawl back to my bed...

I'm sorry to hear that.  I understand and I sympathize with you.

Please get well.


Rebis

Quote from: Rebis on November 28, 2007, 09:32:41 AM

Quote from: ell on November 28, 2007, 12:30:31 AM
oh, sorry. i went off my meds today because of a liver 'incident' and i am such a wreck! i think i have just enough energy to crawl back to my bed...

I'm sorry to hear that.  I understand and I sympathize with you.

Please get well.


Rebis

Thank you Rebecca,

i'm starting to feel a little better. i didn't know my liver was like right on the threshold of going wonky.

-ell

Quote from: ell on November 29, 2007, 09:09:22 PM
Thank you Rebecca,

i'm starting to feel a little better. i didn't know my liver was like right on the threshold of going wonky.

-ell

I think I went through that but was not diagnosed.

Quote from: Rebis on November 30, 2007, 09:02:22 AM
I think I went through that but was not diagnosed.

But it got better, huh?

i noticed on the internet that there are a lot of supplements that are good for the liver:

vit. E
vit. C
ALA
Co Q10
Dandelion
Burdock
Licorice
Milk Thistle
Green Tea
Garlic
Selenium
Beta Carotene

of which i have now added to my diet:
ALA
C0 Q10
vit. E
vit. C
Milk Thistle
Green Tea
Garlic
Selenium
Beta Carotene

and i suppose, no more alcohol, ever. (i was hanging out at the Trans club, when it all started).

-ell

It did go away.  I don't know if it went on it's own or because I quit ambien.  A lot of things went away when I quit ambien.   Apparently, when over used, it will mess you up.

I stopped drinking years ago.  I'm not an alcoholic, but the alcohol causes some strange pain in my upper back and neck.  I have the feeling it was bringing on my future arthritis or something.

Take care of yourself, or I will kill you.   >


Rebis

Quote from: Rebis on December 01, 2007, 09:56:00 PM
It did go away.  I don't know if it went on it's own or because I quit ambien.  A lot of things went away when I quit ambien.   Apparently, when over used, it will mess you up.

Rebis

i know what you mean. i was on Wellbutrin, Celexa, and Spiro, all of which, i hear, can stress the liver. i quit the Wellbutrin (since i had only started it recently), cut the dosage of the Celexa in half (from 40 mg per day to 20 mg) and am hoping i won't have to change my Spiro dosage, since that is part of my HRT. and, in addition to the "rescue my liver" regimen noted earlier, i am thinking about starting an Olive Leaf Extract detoxification, also.

Quote from: ell on October 27, 2007, 09:36:46 PM
In 1944, John von Neumann and Oskar Morgenstern wrote a book called Theory of Games and Economic Behavior, which opened the study of modern game theory. As you may know, game theory is, ironically, one of the most serious of all subjects.

But isn't that what John Nash proved pre-WW II thinking wrong in his PhD dissertation and won the Nobel Prize in mathematics? Just tell everyone you optimizing both yourself and group, and that means sometimes you don't do anything for awhile and let the group do their thing.

After reading his dissertation (a copy of the original submitted paper is available from the Princeton library for about $15 - it's all of about 20 pages) I understand the logic but not the rest. So, if anyone can translate it, I'm listening.

--Susan--

Quote from: SusanK on December 05, 2007, 09:05:29 PM

Quote from: ell on October 27, 2007, 09:36:46 PM
In 1944, John von Neumann and Oskar Morgenstern wrote a book called Theory of Games and Economic Behavior, which opened the study of modern game theory. As you may know, game theory is, ironically, one of the most serious of all subjects.

But isn't that what John Nash proved pre-WW II thinking wrong in his PhD dissertation and won the Nobel Prize in mathematics? Just tell everyone you optimizing both yourself and group, and that means sometimes you don't do anything for awhile and let the group do their thing.

After reading his dissertation (a copy of the original submitted paper is available from the Princeton library for about $15 - it's all of about 20 pages) I understand the logic but not the rest. So, if anyone can translate it, I'm listening.

--Susan--

it's generally understood that though game theory has been studied under various names throughout history, (the formal study of warfare, for instance, depends heavily on game theory) it wasn't established into a coherent field of study until von Neumann's and Morgenstern's work. (compare Nash, von Neumann, and Game Theory on Wikipedia). i like your remarks about Nash.