Transgender pair say they were barred from the Cheshire Inn; seeks explanation

by COLIN MURPHY Senior Staff Writer
08-23-2005

TheVitalVoice

"...around 1 a.m. According to DeWitt, she walked through the door past the doorman and security guard only to realize that her friends weren't behind her, as they had been asked for identification by the doorman. DeWitt alleges that the doorman denied Lisa entry because her ID showed her as a man.

"They said, this doesn't look like you and we're not going to let you in," explained DeWitt."

Karen

Showing ID to get into a restaurant/bar when obviously over the age of 21?  What is the world coming to?  And then refused entry for dubious reasons?  Don't want to hear this. 

She's presenting herself as a woman... yet shows the doorman a male ID... and then screams "discrimination!" when questioned?

I think the "explanation" is that her ID doesn't match her person?

~Kate~

Yeah, I've seen plenty (and I mean plenty) of people refused entry when the ID was not correct. Unless you look obviously over 40, they won't take a chance, they could get their liquor license revoked.

So, not sure if its discrimation. It may be, but its not a very obvious one. If the person was able to show they were the person on the picture and still not let in, then it would be discrimnation.

I spent months unable to go to any bars or clubs where I wasnt allready known by the security because my ID didnt match me....  *Shrugs*  Its the state of affairs in the world we live in...

Anyways... yeah...

Still discrimination and not acceptable. Any time you accept things like this you make it that much harder to overturn it in the future. The state of affairs in the world we live in, indeed.

Quote from: Susan on November 22, 2007, 01:23:37 AM
Still discrimination and not acceptable.

Well isn't the point of PhotoIDs to match the photo?

I'm not sure how it's discrimination? At least as long as ANYONE who's appearance doesn't match their photo is being rejected. If only TGs are being targeted, then sure, it's wrong. On the other hand, it's TGs who will be the most dramatic mismatches with their ID. But if I showed up anywhere IDs were being examined and handed them the PhotoID of a male friend, I'd EXPECT to be rejected.

All she really has to do is change her ID, but apparently won't do that because she chooses to keep her male (legal) identity and life. That's going to create problems for her.

~Kate~

I agree, when TS or TG ask for what I deem unreasonable
entitlements, it plays right in the hands of those that
don't want any laws, even entirely reasonable ones, to
cover us. Like giving us human rights would entitle us
to the most spurious requests.

Some TS, like any human beings, like to deliberately see
alienation where there is none, because of their own
view of the world. I used to think everyone was out
to get me, when in fact the alienation was self-made.

There are rules in society
for everyone and yeah, something they are annoying...
Like paying taxes... But we live with them.

Quote from: Susan on November 22, 2007, 01:23:37 AM
Still discrimination and not acceptable. Any time you accept things like this you make it that much harder to overturn it in the future. The state of affairs in the world we live in, indeed.

Of course it's discrimination. Only the people who resemble their ID will be let in. Also, they discriminate against people who are under 21.

Discrimination isn't a bad thing. I have a discrimination against anchovies and towards chocolate.

i also concord with kate.  the idea of female presentation is to make the necessary changes to be perceived as 'female' in the society we live in.  that includes legal documentation or at least a pic that matches who we say we are.

Theres a median here...

If the person was turned away because of the M on the ID but the picture matched... then thats wrong and most deffinatly discrimination...

If the person was turned away because it was like my old ID... <Scarry pic... me looking like a viiolent criminal with a goatee and glazed eyes> and they looked like me now <Deffinatly not like a violent criminal and deffinatly no goatee and deffinatly not the person in that old picture> I can understand perfectly...  The point of photo ID is that you look like the person in the picture...  Ill never look like the person in that old picture again, and I had lots of trouble till I got the picture updated.  Noone really cares or should care what name s on the ID or what the gender marker say...  If your going to a bar or club or anything else that requires you to be of a certian age, All they really pay attention to <or should pay attention to> Is the picture and the age...

Seriously folks, Its not that hard to go to the DPS or who ever issues yur states ID's and say "I need to update my picture" It costs 10-20 dolars but its well worth the expence.

Quote from: LynnER on November 22, 2007, 12:39:20 PM
Seriously folks, Its not that hard to go to the DPS or who ever issues yur states ID's and say "I need to update my picture" It costs 10-20 dolars but its well worth the expence.

Yup, but this person can't do that. They claim to be transsexual, yet don't want surgery, hormones, or a female identity because they want to be able to be able to perform as a male for their wife. All they do is dress up a few nights each week to go clubbing, yet they expect to reap the benefits of being a transitioned woman, as if it's "owed" them somehow.

I must admit, it's difficult for me to look at this objectively, as I resent their feeling entitled to the same considerations I feel I *earned* through risking everything to transition. I paid a huge emotional and financial cost precisely to avoid situations like that, to fit back into society according to their rules. If she's not willing to do that, then she shouldn't expect everyone to bend the rules just for her. When she cries "discrimination!", what I hear is "make a special exception for ME ME ME!"

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on November 22, 2007, 12:58:26 PM

Quote from: LynnER on November 22, 2007, 12:39:20 PM
Seriously folks, Its not that hard to go to the DPS or who ever issues yur states ID's and say "I need to update my picture" It costs 10-20 dolars but its well worth the expence.

Yup, but this person can't do that. They claim to be transsexual, yet don't want surgery, hormones, or a female identity because they want to be able to be able to perform as a male for their wife. All they do is dress up a few nights each week to go clubbing, yet they expect to reap the benefits of being a transitioned woman, as if it's "owed" them somehow.

I must admit, it's difficult for me to look at this objectively, as I resent their feeling entitled to the same considerations I feel I *earned* through risking everything to transition. I paid a huge emotional and financial cost precisely to avoid situations like that, to fit back into society according to their rules. If she's not willing to do that, then she shouldn't expect everyone to bend the rules just for her. When she cries "discrimination!", what I hear is "make a special exception for ME ME ME!"

~Kate~

Very well said Kate.  In Bulgaria we cannot change the sex on our national identification papers but you can change your piccie to what you look like now.  If peeps dont want to sacrifice their male privileges & desire to keep on living as males, they shouldnt be entitled to be treated as women or be heard when nobody sees them as "women".

I'm sorry, but I do not agree with many of the posts here.  Why was there any need to check someone's ID when they are clearly over 21?  The doorman wanted as many obstacles up as he could, solely because he is a bigot!  If the ID was correct ie: picture, says F not M etc, what would he do then?  Frisk them to check if the genitalia was in order on the pretense that they might be carrying a weapon?  Where does this stuff end?  It won't, if people keep lying down and taking it!  This is definitely out of order and to think this guy is just doing his job, is being very naive.

From what was presented in the article, it was discrimination. One of them was walking straight into the place without being asked for ID, the other two were stopped. One passed, two did not and the bouncer used the policies of the place to bar those two from entering.

If you are going to card, card across the board. I know clubs and other places that cards EVERYONE regardless of how old they may appear. If they are nailed serving someone who should not be served, they get into a lot of trouble and can lose the business on just one infraction.

The bouncer can stop anyone at leasure,
never really understood why some where
carded and some not, must be some
6th sense of something.

Maybe the first one looked older, or it was easier
to ascertain the age of the person because
they didn't have a wig or whatever!

Still, if that person would have had concordant ID,
it would have been very hard to restrict entrance.
Maybe he used that as a means to discriminate,
but it was a legal one...

And, since its the plaignant telling their version of the
story, why should I believe them more than the other?

So, that person assumed the bouncer wouldn't ask for ID, strange assumption unless your clearly old.

Quote from: Kate on November 21, 2007, 10:49:42 PM
She's presenting herself as a woman... yet shows the doorman a male ID... and then screams "discrimination!" when questioned?

I think the "explanation" is that her ID doesn't match her person?

~Kate~

Your license says you are male, so you should present as man?

RLT requires that you live as a woman. The sad thing is RLT is required for SRS, SRS is required to change sex on birthcertificates and drivers license.

The article says they were stopped because they were in womens clothing while their license said male.

Again this is discrimination.

There can be many reasons why a TS may not have had yet, or can not have surgery. Medical problems, Lack of funding, and any of a myriad of other reasons.  That doesn't make the person not TS.

Quote from: Susan on November 22, 2007, 10:44:20 PM

Quote from: Kate on November 21, 2007, 10:49:42 PM
She's presenting herself as a woman... yet shows the doorman a male ID... and then screams "discrimination!" when questioned?

I think the "explanation" is that her ID doesn't match her person?

~Kate~

Your license says you are male, so you should present as man?

RLT requires that you live as a woman. The sad thing is RLT is required for SRS, SRS is required to change sex on birthcertificates and drivers license.

The article says they were stopped because they were in womens clothing while their license said male.

Again this is discrimination.

There can be many reasons why a TS may not have had yet, or can not have surgery. Medical problems, Lack of funding, and any of a myriad of other reasons.  That doesn't make the person not TS.

They were stopped becuase they couldn't prove their identity.  That's not discrimination. 

Establishments have the right to refuse service to anyone, especially anyone that may jeopardize their liquor license.  In fact they are extemely protective of said license and will certainly overreact to preserve it (you didn't think they made all that money selling dinners did you?)

Kate's analysis of this story brings out the problem with "transgenderists" or part-time trannies who will not commit to going all the way. I have a dear friend who is like that-- to placate her wife, she stopped taking hormones and continues to present male at work. Stuck halfway.

Because of my marriage, I was stuck halfway like that for almost 3 years but couldn't take it any longer and had to break on through to the other side. For anyone who remains in that halfway position permanently, I think of lyrics by Melissa Etheridge: "I don't know how you can take it... You must be stronger than me."

The ladies in this news story have run up against the infamous "gender binary" where you have to be all one thing or all the other. It impacts not only androgynes and neutroises but also the part-time "transgenderists" who resist the pressure to snap into one slot or the other. Personally, I happen to fit right into the female side of the binary-- but my heart goes out to people who can't just be one or the other. The system should be eased up to allow for them, because this is part of the natural distribution of variations in the human species. Given the current system, these ladies ran afoul of it because they're not playing by its rules. But I think the rules should find some way to accommodate halfway people.

Quote from: Hypatia on November 23, 2007, 11:32:57 AM
Personally, I happen to fit right into the female side of the binary-- but my heart goes out to people who can't just be one or the other. The system should be eased up to allow for them, because this is part of the natural distribution of variations in the human species.

Plenty of CDs,TVs, etc have active social lives as females.  The current system works, they need to work with in it, rather then screaming discrimination over a system that worked as it should have (denied entry to someone unable to prove their identity).