I don't expect people who only believe in binary gender to change their opinions, but I'm weary of the belief that androgynes are in denial of our transsexuality and merely sitting on the fence until we can face it. It is indeed possible for someone to transition, as I and others here have done, and subsequently come to a realization that they aren't either of the binary genders. As the understanding of androgynes grows, perhaps more can come to that realization without having to go through the m2f or f2m route first.

I fully respect a person's choice to be the gender they wish to be, and if they wish to be one of the binary choices I support that. I desire the same respect for my choice, and want to create a world where it is safe for a person to express ANY and ALL genders along the continuum.

peace,

zythyra

*nods*
I've said it before but I'll hold my hand up again as somebody who has tried being male and female before realizing neither was right for me.  I too hope that more people realize being androgyne is a possibility before starting down the wrong path.

That said, having ruled out both options makes me certain that my gender identity isn't binary, and if all goes to plan in a few months my sex won't be either 

Quote from: y2gender on November 15, 2007, 07:20:54 PM
As the understanding of androgynes grows, perhaps more can come to that realization without having to go through the m2f or f2m route first.

That's where i'm hoping to be.

I'm one of those that didn't try to go all the way 'to the other side' first.  I knew right from the get go that 'male' wasn't the answer...and that 'female' wasn't either..

I'm not sure exactly where my final resting place is, I just know its not either of those.

-Alison (who is eliminating possibilities one at a time)

I'm not a transsexual.  I'm essentially okay with being a man and would be essentially okay with being a woman.  Some people see me as a "kind-of poof" man but if I transitioned I'd just be a "kind-of butch" woman.  What's the point in worrying?

I just don't want people to tell me what my gender means.

Quote from: Andra on November 15, 2007, 07:38:02 PM
*nods*
I've said it before but I'll hold my hand up again as somebody who has tried being male and female before realizing neither was right for me.  I too hope that more people realize being androgyne is a possibility before starting down the wrong path.

That said, having ruled out both options makes me certain that my gender identity isn't binary, and if all goes to plan in a few months my sex won't be either 

You are becoming mythic to me.      I love it!

And,

I not only agree with Z - I also believe Z's wording is wonderful.

Quote from: Simon on November 16, 2007, 05:53:16 PM
I'm essentially okay with being a man and would be essentially okay with being a woman.  Some people see me as a "kind-of poof" man but if I transitioned I'd just be a "kind-of butch" woman.  What's the point in worrying?

Me too, but in reverse.  I'm kind of a "tomboy" woman, but I'd be a very effeminate man if I were to transition.  Luckily for me, I figured out pretty quickly that transitioning wouldn't do me any good.  At first, my reasoning is that my life would be easier if I didn't.  I don't hate my body.  To me, it's just flesh, plumbing.  I don't hate it.  I'm sure I don't have what it takes to go through with it, possibly losing family, friends, etc., all the negative things that can come from it.  I like men so I started thinking that maybe in a past life I was a gay man and had wished to be born a woman in the next life so that I could be with the person I loved (I went WAY out there for a bit...okay, so maybe I stay way out in left field, but that's not important  ).  I also had a very strong desire to be a mother.  Eventually, I did some research and figured out that I was androgyne.  I have learned a lot from you all and I am very glad that I found this site. 

I agree that androgyne falls under the transgender category, though to what extent I have no idea.  It's pretty hard to define. 

Quote from: Rebis on November 17, 2007, 11:56:01 PM
I not only agree with Z - I also believe Z's wording is wonderful.

Thanks Rebis!

I've been thinking about this a lot recently, for those of us who went through the TS process first, being TS was a phase towards discovery of ourselves as androgyne or other, not the other way around as has been sometimes stated. Thus being TS was the temporary "fence" before going beyond the binary to an alternate gender. I don't mean this as critical of other peoples' choices, I cherish my experiences as an m2f person, I learned a lot, it just wasn't the right path for me ultimately.

Zythyra

Quote from: Jaimey on November 18, 2007, 05:53:31 PM
I agree that androgyne falls under the transgender category, though to what extent I have no idea.  It's pretty hard to define. 

I've been thinking about this, I'm not completely sure. Don't have time to go into it at the moment though.

Quote from: y2gender on November 15, 2007, 07:20:54 PM
want to create a world where it is safe for a person to express ANY and ALL genders along the continuum.

People, especially kids, ask me wheter I am a man or a woman.

I live in an apartment and like to play with my little daughter at a nearby playground. Kids are more frank than adults. They do not hesitate to express their curiosity on me. The little kids talk to me like:

"Are you a man or woman?"
"Why do you have so long hair. Men should not have such long hair."

I sometimes reply like:

"Why do you want to know whether I am a man or woman?"
"Why should not men have long hair?"

Their answers are various.

My preliminary conclusion is that kids cling to the binary system more than adults. They are learning the binary system that our societies have tried to keep and preserve, whatever the purpose is.

Quote from: Pica Pica on November 19, 2007, 02:00:19 AM

Quote from: Jaimey on November 18, 2007, 05:53:31 PM
I agree that androgyne falls under the transgender category, though to what extent I have no idea.  It's pretty hard to define. 

I've been thinking about this, I'm not completely sure. Don't have time to go into it at the moment though.

well, "trans" may not be exactly correct..."gender variant" is probably a better term...or at least a bigger one.

Posted on: November 22, 2007, 12:48:31 AM

---

Quote from: barbie on November 19, 2007, 08:43:58 AM

Quote from: y2gender on November 15, 2007, 07:20:54 PM
want to create a world where it is safe for a person to express ANY and ALL genders along the continuum.

People, especially kids, ask me wheter I am a man or a woman.

I live in an apartment and like to play with my little daughter at a nearby playground. Kids are more frank than adults. They do not hesitate to express their curiosity on me. The little kids talk to me like:

"Are you a man or woman?"
"Why do you have so long hair. Men should not have such long hair."

I sometimes reply like:

"Why do you want to know whether I am a man or woman?"
"Why should not men have long hair?"

Their answers are various.

My preliminary conclusion is that kids cling to the binary system more than adults. They are learning the binary system that our societies have tried to keep and preserve, whatever the purpose is.

I like the way you answer them...they have to think.  Today, the 19 year old girl I am sharing a computer with while training told me that the United States should only be run by white men.  Women are too emotional because of PMS and she didn't elaborate on the "white" part of her answer, probably because of the black woman sitting on the other side of her.  Geezus.  If only someone had made her think when she was a child...

Quote from: Jaimey on November 22, 2007, 12:51:44 AM
well, "trans" may not be exactly correct..."gender variant" is probably a better term...or at least a bigger one.

One problem I have with the term gender variant, though I do sometimes use it myself, is that there's an implication that the binary gender system is still the norm by which we're comparing ourselves. Perhaps "gender variance" is really the norm, and it's strict adherence to the binary which is "variant". 

y2g

Quote from: y2gender on November 22, 2007, 05:47:08 AM

Quote from: Jaimey on November 22, 2007, 12:51:44 AM
well, "trans" may not be exactly correct..."gender variant" is probably a better term...or at least a bigger one.

One problem I have with the term gender variant, though I do sometimes use it myself, is that there's an implication that the binary gender system is still the norm by which we're comparing ourselves. Perhaps "gender variance" is really the norm, and it's strict adherence to the binary which is "variant". 

y2g

well, that theory pretty much clears everything up.  The binary people are the ones who should be explaining themselves to us

hear hear.

Quote from: y2gender on November 22, 2007, 05:47:08 AM
One problem I have with the term gender variant, though I do sometimes use it myself, is that there's an implication that the binary gender system is still the norm by which we're comparing ourselves. Perhaps "gender variance" is really the norm, and it's strict adherence to the binary which is "variant". 

We could make things more complicated by using "gender diverse" or something but I don't think we'll escape from that problem.  Ultimately any umbrella term that represents the non-binary will be taken as meaning "different from the binary".

Maybe it doesn't matter as long as the name is inclusive.  Think of the word "queer".  Great connotations...

Quote from: Rebis on November 22, 2007, 02:34:22 PM
well, that theory pretty much clears everything up.  The binary people are the ones who should be explaining themselves to us

Indeed, they must follow the Standards of Care, get some psychotherapy, and surely a Real Life Test would be required before they could proceed with marriage and 2.2 children... "honestly Dr, I've always felt I was a heterosexual male trapped in the body of a non-binary multigendered being" >

y2g

        

Quote from: y2gender on November 15, 2007, 07:20:54 PM
I'm weary of the belief that androgynes are in denial of our transsexuality and merely sitting on the fence until we can face it

Me too. But I take some comfort from the fact that as intersexed people are becoming more visible, it should make it easier for others to understand that we (androgynes) simply have a different brain sex than male or female. If we can't have a different brain sex that matches a physical sex then why can others? Huh? Huh?

QuoteI desire the same respect for my choice, and want to create a world where it is safe for a person to express ANY and ALL genders along the continuum.

Or totally outside the gender continuum. 

Quote from: y2gender on November 15, 2007, 07:20:54 PM
I'm weary of the belief that androgynes are in denial of our transsexuality and merely sitting on the fence until we can face it

I wish it were so simple.  Transsexuals have been in the news often enough lately that most people can understand their situation, even if they think they are sinners and headed for an eternity in the "smoking section".

Explaining a life outside of the gender binary forces people to examine their deeply ingrained beliefs about male and female.  Most don't want to do this, and thus they transfer their unease into anger and annoyance toward those forcing them to evaluate a "given".

It was only 500 years ago that everyone KNEW the world was flat.
Only a hundred years ago, everyone KNEW that man couldn't fly.
Today, everyone KNOWS that a person is either a Man or a Woman...bzzzz...wrong again

.....Laurry

Well, yes. First homosexuals challenge some deeply ingrained assumptions about gender-appropriate behaviour, and eventually get recognised (if not accepted by everyone). Next transsexuals challenge a different but at least as strong set of assumptions about gender, and eventually people acknowledge that they exist too. Then androgynes come along and challenge a whole new set of assumptions about gender. Who's next? 

  Nfr