The reason why I ask is because all too often I see people lean too much on the biology position too much for the ethical or unethical nature of transsexualism (if that's the right word for it, I can't seem to find consensus in medical textbooks on this one, bleh). Now, even Ayn Rand stated that if something is a matter of biology, then it shouldn't be considered a matter of ethics/morality because all moral/ethical decisions are based on reason and free will. So, if you have no choice in the matter then how can you be held accountable for it, morally?

I think barring unequivocal proof of the biological origin for transsexualism, the best argument is hinged on the matter of individual liberty. Why? Because it follows that one ought to be secure in one's person (one's life, liberty, and property as a whole), no matter how different a person may become in respect to others. Being yourself, when you're not doing it on other's effort or lives, is not a moral offense. So, no amount of arguing from any other context could invalidate an argument based on individual liberty, unless one can show that being a transsexual (or any thing else) causes direct harm to another person (not emotional 'pain' or whatever, actual force and fraud harm).

But I leave it to you all to consider your own arguments for and against on this particular thread.

-- Brede

I'm actually arging a point like this on another board I frequent. This board is specificly for people who believe in freedom and rationality.

However, the sticking point is "should transgender people be allowed in the bathroom of what they look like?"

What I'm fighting is the "no penises in the women's bathroom (rape OMG)" mentality. Anything from "penises mean rape" to "it's uncivil."

The point of biology is a HUGE tool. People see us as crossdressers. Pretending to be of another sex for fun. Pointing out the difference in brain structure is a major point in making this behavior seem less like a "flight of fancy" to the uninformed. If they liken it to a choice, I can bring up chromosones, and ask if people that have down's syndrome have a choice, or if therapy can cure them.

Biology is huge tool. Science is a great tool to convince those that advocate reason.

Quoteall moral/ethical decisions are based on reason and free will

Subjective thoughts are a mater of personal preference therefore not uniform across the humane race.

Quote from: lisagurl on November 22, 2007, 03:43:27 PM

Quoteall moral/ethical decisions are based on reason and free will

Subjective thoughts are a mater of personal preference therefore not uniform across the humane race.

I would argue that's not true since every statement is a statement of knowledge of something (the world/existence/universe/etc), which means the subject is really an object (the agents and the actions involved).

yes. if you chose it, you should get no consideration. there is far more biological evidence for TSism than ->-bleeped-<- and homosexuality. A number of the so-called gay animal studies really created transsexual animals.

transsexuals have problems with being lumped in with LGBTs, and serious biological studies would certainly refute the logic of that. There are men who choose to act/dress like women, and they lie and claim to be TSs and women. the biological argument is the only way to stop such lies and fraud. once biology proves that TSs are neither gay nor TGs, their rights may skyrocket. the only reasons TSs are mistreated is because they are lumped in with LGBTs or choose to associate with them. Punishment stops when the behavior which is used to justify it stops.

btw, transsexualism is about gender not sex. slandering TSs by saying their issues have to do with sexuality harm them. true-transsexualism is not a sexual choice nor a lifestyle, it is a medical condition. Remember that sex, gender, and orientation are three distinct things. sex is between the legs, gender is between the ears, and orientation is between the bedsheets.

I don't know what possible benefit would be derived from arguing it at all, ethical or otherwise, unless you're a psychiatrist or psychologist. No-one but them would. I'm sure that we try not to entertain such moral dilemmas. We just live our lives as best we can. It is other peeps who want to be on the Dr. Phil Show who make life difficult for us by publicizing aspects of our lives that they know nothing personally about and have no business discussing, if they had any decency.

Quote from: Katia on November 23, 2007, 02:12:19 AM
yes. if you chose it, you should get no consideration. there is far more biological evidence for TSism than ->-bleeped-<- and homosexuality. A number of the so-called gay animal studies really created transsexual animals.

transsexuals have problems with being lumped in with LGBTs, and serious biological studies would certainly refute the logic of that. There are men who choose to act/dress like women, and they lie and claim to be TSs and women. the biological argument is the only way to stop such lies and fraud. once biology proves that TSs are neither gay nor TGs, their rights may skyrocket. the only reasons TSs are mistreated is because they are lumped in with LGBTs or choose to associate with them. Punishment stops when the behavior which is used to justify it stops.

btw, transsexualism is about gender not sex. slandering TSs by saying their issues have to do with sexuality harm them. true-transsexualism is not a sexual choice nor a lifestyle, it is a medical condition. Remember that sex, gender, and orientation are three distinct things. sex is between the legs, gender is between the ears, and orientation is between the bedsheets.

First off From another post you and I have both posted in and written from the WIKI ADMINS (Stephs) OWN WORDS:

"As this is an international support web site we use the generally accepted terms that are used with regards to the Transgender community, with Transgender being the umbrella term that includes TS, TV, CD, IS, Androgyne, etc, etc.

Different countries may or do use different terms or use the defined terms differently.

Steph"


So in Fact you are TRANSGENDERED!!!


And ALSO Cross Dressing IS A BIOLOGICAL TRAIT, and should not be scalpled off a TSism in those regards.  The amount of biological evidence is irrelevant, given that crossdressers are not studied as much, as a individual with the need to have SRS.

As for you statement that CD's lie and claim to be TS and women.

BEING A WOMEN IS WHO YOU ARE IN YOUR MIND, not your body, and just because some choose not to have SURGERY TO REFLECT THIER MIND DOES NOT MEAN THAT BIOLOGICALLY THEY ARE ANY DIFFERENT THAN YOU!!!

Remember that SEX, GENDER, and Orientation ALL MAKE UP A INDIVIDUALS MIND. period.


Sorry for all the caps I was getting a flustered writing that and trying to keep my composure,  We are in this as much for future generations, as we are for ourselves!!!

Quote from: maragirlygirr on November 23, 2007, 05:10:56 AM

So in Fact you are TRANSGENDERED!!!

That may be, but according to the definitions of THIS SITE;

Quote
Crossdresser: a person wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally no sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

Drag kings: performers, usually gay women or transgendered men - who dress in drag clothing associated with the male gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag kings often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.

Drag queens: performers, usually gay men or transgendered women - who dress in drag, clothing associated with the female gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag queens often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.

Intersexual: a person born with the full or partial sex organs of both sexes; with underdeveloped or ambiguous sex organs; a sex chromosome karyotype other than XX or XY; or sex hormone receptor problems which prevent normal absorption of Estrogen or Androgens. Intersexual persons may seek to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

Significant other: for the purpose of this site, someone close to a person who is transgender. This may be a mother, father, son, daughter, sister, brother, family member, husband, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, or friend.

Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

->-bleeped-<-: a person who wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally a strong sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.


Other terms:


Post-Ops: Transsexuals who have had surgical procedures to make their body as congruent as possible with their preferred sex. For MTF transsexuals this is generally considered to be after Genital surgery (GRS, orchiectomy, and/or penectomy), for FTM transsexuals it is generally considered to be after top surgery.

Pre-ops: Transsexuals who desire to to make their body as congruent as possible with their preferred sex, but have not yet had the surgical procedures for whatever reason.

This is not intended to be a glossary of all tg related terms. This just defines the make-up of the community on this site. 

Quote from: maragirlygirr on November 23, 2007, 05:10:56 AM

And ALSO Cross Dressing IS A BIOLOGICAL TRAIT,

No it isnt.  If it is, I would like to see your sources, scientific evidence, links, studies, etc...

Quote from: maragirlygirr on November 23, 2007, 05:10:56 AM

The amount of biological evidence is irrelevant, given that crossdressers are not studied as much, as a individual with the need to have SRS.

Cross-dressers are that, cross-dressers.  They are not transsexual and cannot be women.  CDs have a male gender identification and do not suffer from GID.  If they claim they do, then they are TS or TG but not CD.

Hello Jeanette,

1.) But according to the definitions of both sites, all those terms are subcategories of TRANSGENDER, So?

"This is not intended to be a glossary of all tg related terms. This just defines the make-up of the community on this site. "
                                                          ^Transgendered


2.) I see it very plainly, And I assume (maybe wrongly) That you are a TS (i.e.GID), so let me have a chance to explain my theory on this

Male for example
a CD feels 49% or less woman in his mind, he is comfortable with his greater half dominating
a TS feels 49% or less Man in her mind, I Do not think it takes a individual a full 100% women mind to be TS, just enough to expierience GID

TRUE CD's are not dressing for sexual arousal, those are Tranvestites, so in theory they are doing so to satisfy a degree of a instinct within them, I call it feminity, and to me feminity is a born with Trait!!!

This isnt documented and is solely a perception, I would really like a public view of what they think of it, see if it can work for you, aplly it yourself and think about where you fall.

I believe it is easy to realize that even Women have some degree of Masculinity.
I do not believe that a person is not either (black or white/ 0% or 100%) we are mixes thereof.

I would like to hear peoples mixes (ratios)


AND IT IS FOR THESE REASONS THAT I SAY IT IS A BIOLOGICAL TRAIT, because it is all in your head and you born with it.

Quote from: maragirlygirr on November 23, 2007, 09:40:57 AM
I would like to hear peoples mixes (ratios)


AND IT IS FOR THESE REASONS THAT I SAY IT IS A BIOLOGICAL TRAIT, because it is all in your head and you born with it.

This only ends up degrading into "I'm more TS then you..." and that never ends well.

I'm not even going to touch the biology argument, we're just going to flood this forum with "scientific proof" of our position.

Since there's been so very few studies about
CD and TS, arguing about its
biological nature seems a bit silly to me.

Even when there's hundreds of studies on
a subject, conclusions can still be hard
to come by (for example, health risk of
HRT in post-menopausal women). Thousands
of studies, yet not many conclusions!

Studying TS, and GID in general,
could be even more complex since
hundreds of genes and environmental
factors could be in cause.

My feeling is GID, at various degree, caused
by gene-womb environment interaction (will
take a lot of time before anyone proves it conclusively though).

Classic Cross Dressing could be a stress coping mechanism (cross dressers often dress more in period of stress) or dozens of other behavoral root causes. If the person wants to stop, they can, and even if its a severe compulsion, therapy and medication will work eventually.

keira,

you make some very true points, thank you for your input.

There are so few conclusions!!! Thats why I choose to use logic not studies to voice my points!!!

As for:

"Studying TS, and GID in general,
could be even more complex since
hundreds of genes and environmental
factors could be in cause."

that is exactly what I meant when i stated:

"The amount of biological evidence is irrelevant, given that crossdressers are not studied as much, as a individual with the need to have SRS.


GID is more complex than simple crossdressing, but consider this:

I am a 100% of the time "woman", yet I have no desire to ever have SRS/GRS, or use hormones.
All to often I find myself on the border line of a full time CD/ Transsexual.

Neither Group will take me, Transsexuals say I am not a TS because I do not have the need to have those surgerys, and CD's Dont take me because I live this way full time.

In addition

I have had several Transexuals write me off on the fact that because they dont think that I am a TS (which I do consider myself) call me a CD and state that people like us are hurting their chances in life at a whole bunch of things.

To me GID doesnt always go to a 100% length, It can mean that satisfaction with yourself can be accomplished by going X far with transistion, in fact that Is my main ARGUMENT. Just like with any disorder, it doesnt have to go to the full extreme of "I hate my male genitals" that is NOT the defing line of being a Transsexual, knowing you have GID wheter severe or mild is. period.



So with that said in retrospect I can easily see how Crossdressing could not be Biological, and i only speak from my standpoint of trying to figure were the Heck I sit in this Transgendered world.

ALL I ASK is that TS's please understand that GID does not have to be so severe that you need to cut off things you born with or that you are not comfortable with them even. Just like any other disorder!!!

I would really like to hear peoples thoughts

Quote from: Katia on November 23, 2007, 02:12:19 AM
transsexuals have problems with being lumped in with LGBTs, and serious biological studies would certainly refute the logic of that. There are men who choose to act/dress like women, and they lie and claim to be TSs and women. the biological argument is the only way to stop such lies and fraud. once biology proves that TSs are neither gay nor TGs, their rights may skyrocket. the only reasons TSs are mistreated is because they are lumped in with LGBTs or choose to associate with them. Punishment stops when the behavior which is used to justify it stops.

I quite agree with you Katia.  If peeps want to label themselves with the umbrella definition of "transgender", let them.  Ts's shouldn't be lumped together with everybody else like CD's  TV's, Andro, and what not.  Transsexualism is characterized by a severe form of GID.  Other peeps may have some GID but they are clearly not transsexual.  Dressing like a woman does not make you one, feeling "feminine", "sexy" and "cute" doesnt either.  That is fetishism not GID.

maybe some of us just dont belive in surgery and or are scared, are you gonna slight those individuals into a NON-TS category, just cause of that

Quote from: maragirlygirr on November 23, 2007, 02:19:20 PM
are you gonna slight those individuals into a NON-TS category, just cause of that

I would but I suggest you read this topic.  Very good posts here particularly the last one by Susan, the web administrator.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,21941.0.html

Quote from: maragirlygirr on November 23, 2007, 02:19:20 PM
maybe some of us just dont belive in surgery and or are scared, are you gonna slight those individuals into a NON-TS category, just cause of that

well, then you're not ts, it is that simple!

Quote from: Susan on November 14, 2007, 08:12:57 PM

Severe GID required for GRS as defined by the medical community does not and can not apply to non-TS's. If you are a MTF transsexual then keeping a penis is not a desired option. It might not be possible to have it removed at the current time, but that doesn't stop the need to have it gone.

If you want to keep that part of your body then YOU likely are NOT a MTF Transsexual. If you feel the need to pretend that you are, we will humor you until you figure it out on your own, hopefully before it's too late...

the only reason why a transsexual woman can not have surgery is medical, that's it.  no buts.  period.

The classical TS has GID enough that they will seek surgery.

But, I think they're moving away from saying that those outside this classical mold are not TS, by in aknowledging that GID comes in varying degrees and that in certain its centred on the body with hardly a social component, when in others the social component is the most important.

The threshold where the psychological discomfort with the physical aspects leads to surgery also depends on various environmental factors.

Still, for those with the most acute GID, surgery will be sought.

Ok I'm going to quote someone who was very dear to us and who is no longer here:

Quote from: Leigh on August 10, 2005, 04:51:21 PM
My definition of TS.  If you have one of those *things*, like *it*, never want to get rid of *it* and enjoy using *it* you dam sure are not TS of any kind.

Leigh

Ditto!

This may sound a bit harsh to grasp, but if you are really transsexual, you will know that keeping *that thing* is not an option unless there is a medical reason or financial difficulties as Susan specified on her post.

tink

Sigh.  This argument starts every other week.  Over/under is three days before it gets locked.

AAAAAHHHHH  Then what would you people call me? where do i fit into your alls little universe,

I am not a crossdresser
apparently cause I dont care to go under the knife Im not a TS
I KNOW Im not a transvestic fetish cause it is not about sex for me

To me I live the way I do because I am trying to be on the outside who I AM ON THE INSIDE

I am Hetero

I JUST DONT LIKE SURGERY, PERIOD.

ANYBODY HAVE A CLASSICAL ANSWER!!!!